@ thread

Y'know... Ubuntu is real good !!

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I dont suffer from Insanity - I enjoy it

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@samface

Quote:

What did I claim about whom?

Huh ? Did you claim something ?

Quote:

Yes, it is a laughable matter. Say anything about Bill McEwen or Fleecy Moss that doesn't comply with the general opinion of them as the minions of satan himself and have the wrath of the church of Amiga all over you. No matter how much people points out the lack of facts to support the conspiracy theories thrown about, another theory simply replaces the other where the implication of them as evil remains the same. First people say it's all a part of a carefully thought out plan to scam us all, then when that doesn't make sense people say it's their incompetence, a complete contradiction to the previous theory. Personally I'm more inclined to agree with the latter, although I would allow some of the blame on plain and simple misfortune too. Not *everything* is their doing, you know.

You take things too seriously. Also you seem upset about something I can't put my
finger on it, so I don't know why you are so eager to burn gunpowder here, like you want
to lecture us or something. I don't think peoples opinions here has any effect on Amiga Inc
as a company.

Amiga "as a business" died, Bill, Fleecy thought they could bring it back.
They did not have the financial backup to do this, they signed a disasterous
contract, and so they finally failed.
That's my version.

IMO Amiga Inc won't come back as the Amiga most of us would like to have .
Amiga INC with AA2 is what it is and most likely not anything Amiga was in the past.
It's somehing new. I believe OS4 dies in court and I belive in AROS as the long term goal
if you want something that feels like Amiga. MOS might come up strong too but it's harware doesn't appeal to me.

You are welcome to humiliate me for beliving in that but it won't change what I think.

Last edited by Manu on 10-Feb-2008 at 07:26 PM.
Last edited by Manu on 10-Feb-2008 at 07:20 PM.

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

@Manu

Quote:

Quote: [quote] Manu wrote: @samface How do you know he's not ? What did I claim about whom?

Huh ? Did you claim something ? [/quote]

Then what did you mean by "How do you know he's not"? To *whom* where you refering and *what* are you asking me wether "he" is or not?

Quote:

Quote: Yes, it is a laughable matter. Say anything about Bill McEwen or Fleecy Moss that doesn't comply with the general opinion of them as the minions of satan himself and have the wrath of the church of Amiga all over you. No matter how much people points out the lack of facts to support the conspiracy theories thrown about, another theory simply replaces the other where the implication of them as evil remains the same. First people say it's all a part of a carefully thought out plan to scam us all, then when that doesn't make sense people say it's their incompetence, a complete contradiction to the previous theory. Personally I'm more inclined to agree with the latter, although I would allow some of the blame on plain and simple misfortune too. Not *everything* is their doing, you know. You take things too seriously. Also you seem upset about something I can't put my finger on it, so I don't know why you are so eager to burn gunpowder here, like you want to lecture us or something. I don't think peoples opinions here has any effect on Amiga Inc as a company.

Of course it does. Just look at the mob who simply had to warn the City of Kent about Amiga Inc.'s past. The question here isn't if it was justified to do so, I'm just saying that it sure does have it's effects.

Quote:

Amiga "as a business" died, Bill, Fleecy thought they could bring it back. They did not have the financial backup to do this, they signed a disasterous contract, and so they finally failed. That's my version.

"Finally"? I see nothing final about their business. On the contrary, they seem rather financially renewed and stronger than ever to me.

Quote:

IMO Amiga Inc won't come back as the Amiga most of us would like to have . Amiga INC with AA2 is what it is and most likely not anything Amiga was in the past. It's somehing new. I believe OS4 dies in court and I belive in AROS as the long term goal if you want something that feels like Amiga. MOS might come up strong too but it's harware doesn't appeal to me.

The thing is, it would be *impossible* to continue developing the "classic" Amiga, hardware-wise as well as software-wise. We all came to realize this along time ago. Amiga Inc. did the only real thing to do, they dropped classic Amiga development. Sure, Hyperion was allowed to develop AmigaOS4, which might come in handy in a sandbox for backwards compatibility in future products but that's about it. If you were in charge, how would you have done things differently? And please try to be real, they need to make money somehow too.

Quote:

You are welcome to humiliate me for beliving in that but it won't change what I think.

Why would I humiliate you? I don't humiliate people, atleast not without a reason, like when people tries to humiliate me.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface
Just wondering if you've noticed an increase of contrails over your neck of the woods these last few weeks.. :

_________________
Hate tends to make you look stupid...

@samface

Quote:

Then what did you mean by "How do you know he's not"? To *whom* where you refering and *what* are you asking me wether "he" is or not?

Then you shouldn't have asked in the first place ?

*Dang, how am I doing ? I feel I'm not good at these ####ing contests *

Quote:

Of course it does. Just look at the mob who simply had to warn the City of Kent about Amiga Inc.'s past. The question here isn't if it was justified to do so, I'm just saying that it sure does have it's effects.

Of course it doesn't. The deal could have gone through if Amiga Inc wanted.

Quote:

"Finally"? I see nothing final about their business. On the contrary, they seem rather financially renewed and stronger than ever to me.

Well you may belive so but I have my doubts. And I know "stronger than ever"
won't give me anything I would want from Amiga, but as a business they are free
to start make money how they like.

Quote:

The thing is, it would be *impossible* to continue developing the "classic" Amiga, hardware-wise as well as software-wise. We all came to realize this along time ago. Amiga Inc. did the only real thing to do, they dropped classic Amiga development. Sure, Hyperion was allowed to develop AmigaOS4, which might come in handy in a sandbox for backwards compatibility in future products but that's about it. If you were in charge, how would you have done things differently? And please try to be real, they need to make money somehow too.

I don't know why you would like ask me I'm not the type of guy that takes over
a computer brand, I would never have because I know my limitations. But to answer
your question at least in some parts, I would have thought that in order to continue
Amiga back then when it got bought you would need to have quite a large bunch of
people employed that previously worked at Amiga who knew what to do.

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: @fairlanefastback ... but most of what they are blamed for (example; they don't care about the OS -

That's what Ainc said themselves.
It may be just one year ago that I read on their website that they are no longer involved in the Amiga Desktop OS thingie and that they were going to focus on the mobile market instead. The AmigaOne Partners would take care of the Amiga Desktop OS - AInc would not support or promote it.

You should really ask your "several trillion years old memory"...


Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: Despite them being the ones that paid for OS4 development in the first place

AInc paid for OS4 development?
Really?
When did that happen? (must have missed that)
How much did they pay?
Can you please provide an link to documents supporting your claim?

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: and currently going through an expensive court case to retrieve it) are based on the years of FUD that has been repeated so many times its become fact.

And where does the FUD you're trying to sell us as facts stem from?

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: If you stip away the FUD, Amiga (including Amino) are not even close to as bad as some people (And I include you in this) think they are.

If I strip away what you call FUD, then there still is the fact that they defrauded me and others with the 50 Euro rebate coupons.

You can't put lipstick on this pig...

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: Now when somebody like me comes along and tries to address the balance,

Then why don't you address the balance at those who disturbed it in the first place: AInc?

Why do you upset me and others with that unappropriate slipslop?

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: ..., you might be a bit surprised to how little facts you have.

To cut a long story short:
Where are the facts to support your claims?

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: ... You have to follow the same rules as I do.

I don't think so.
You most likely live in a different country than I do - so I'm sure that you have to follow different rules.

If you e.g. lived in the U.K. you had to follow the rule to drive on the wrong side...


Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: ... But that is assuming the Amiga community voice is still big enough to be important. We are not.

The I really don't understand your concerns:

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: Wages, and the none payment of. Anti-Amiga side = Scam Planned from the start. ... Evidence? None. ... Kent Center: Anti-Amiga side = Scam. Planed from the start. Dirty tricks. Evidence? Nothing. ... OS4 legal battle: Anti-Amiga side = Scam. Planed from the start ... Evidence? Nothing. ... OS5/AA2: Anti-Amiga side = Pathetic. (Better than OSX? Bah phooey!) ... Evidence? Nothing. ... Quote: Why the hell wouldn't you, as Amiga, want to spend the *little bit of time and effort needed* to start setting things straight? Because you keep spitting in my face everytime I open my mouth to say anything. ... Because you spitting in my face everytime I open my mouth ... Because you spit on my face ... Everytime we try, you spit on us. ... So stop spitting then.

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: ... Joking aside with my about analogy, I expect they are fed up of every step they take towards giving us what we want (A desktop OS) becoming a huge struggle.

Sounds like an big misunderstanding on your side.
Normally a company does not exist to "give us what we want" - they are around to make profit.

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: For as long as OS4 is tied up in legal battles and OS5 is in development, they are not going to have a product the community is interested in.

I'm afraid that even when OS5 development is finished (if it exists at all), they are equally not going to have a product the community is interested in, given that they stated they don't see a future for Amiga desktop OS and would focus on the mobile market instead and that it most likely won't be compatible with all previous AmigaOS versions.

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: How many developers from Amigaland did AA1 attract? I'm guessing from the Indian acquisition, not enough.

And I'm guessing, that even if it should be true that they accuired Indian developers when they ostensibly bought ADI, they can't be doing much - or how do you explain that they didn't release anything in such a long period of time?

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: Thats where there focus is, because thats where the money is. If they don't succeed there, there wont be a desktop OS for us because there won't be an Amiga Inc.

I don't know about you, but I'm sure there will be a lot of other desktop OSses for me in case AInc would go bust, at long last...

I don't mind them going bankrupt for all they did so far...

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: ... The purpose of the press releases is to make sure we (the community) know that they havn't forgotton about us.

A much, much better measure to demonstrate this would be to give me my 50 Euros back finally.

Now that I already have bought my copy of OS4 for classics, I'd say it's time to get my rebate coupon and my money back.

Back then McBill said that we sould measure him/AInc by the deeds.
He said that if AInc doen't succeed this time then it's over.

AInc didn't succeed this time up to now - so all we're doing now is judging him/them by the deeds so far, as asked by McBill...

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: I was rather hopeful ...

Yeah - eight years ago I was hopeful as well.
But what they achieved so far in the course of the past eight years opened my eyes...

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: Now that they are actively out in the big world showing off AA as a finished (or nearly finished) product, this re-enforces my view that OS5 has been under development for some time as it fits in with the origional goals.

AInc are actively out in the big world?
You mean aside from suing/being sued at court?
Did I miss something?

You mean "showing off AA" or "going public with AA2" is evidence enough that "OS5 has been under development for some time"?
What kind of logic is that now meant to be?


Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: Yes, they have slipped on yet another deadline and this again looks bad on them, but even so, the fact they are going public with AA2 shows that they have been very active behind closed doors which pleases me greatly because it bears out my views that Amiga Inc is going to finaly deliver what they promised a decade ago.

About a decade ago Petro and Juergen Haage promised OS3.5 and OS 3.9 - the first talk I heard about OS4 and the transformation path to OS5 was in June 2000 at the Amiga fair at Neuss/Germany.

Petro and Juergen had delivered on their promise, when OS 3.9 was released back in Dec 2000...

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: Only now with the development of OS5 does the Amiga community have something to offer THEM, ...

What?
We have to offer them something?

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@SpaceDruid
Quote:

I never said Buck broke Amiga, I'm saying he exploited the situation when Amiga was already broken to his own ends. It resulted in a smaller fractured community and lots of bad blood that persists to this day.

The community fractured in 1999 when Amino announced that AmigaOS was dead and that AmigaDE was the way forward. We had two communities after that, brandname fans, and AmigaOS fans.

The split existed long before BBRV came onto the scene. Back in 2000, it was Ralph Schmidt (a regular poster on ANN, in those days) who was the evil bogeyman who was accused "splitting the community". When he disappeared you (you, as in the pro-Amiga Inc establishment) needed a new bogeyman to rally your followers against. BBRV was perfect for the job.

Now of course, the bogeyman is Bill McEwen and the pro-Amiga Inc establishment is in tatters and blind panic. Occasionally we see well-written defensive pieces like yours, but they are still all based on fundamental wrongs.

Last edited by smithy on 11-Feb-2008 at 09:32 AM.
Last edited by smithy on 11-Feb-2008 at 09:31 AM.

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @DiscreetFX That's right, defend your lack of facts with built up over time hearsay. It's after all much better to trust than actual facts. When someone's reputation has been built over a long enough period of time, facts matter no more. ...

That's why the old saying exists:
"People that lied once aren't believed anything anymore - even if they are telling the truth then..."

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @Manu Stop thinking that you might contribute anything constructive to the debate by stating it once more.

What's that now meant to be - some sort of "mind control"?
Who are you that you dare to dictate us what to think and what not?

Quote:

samface wrote: It would be in my opinion much more interesting to hear *anything* that you might think would NOT be there fault to prove your ability to reason objectively.

It was not their fault that

- Commodere went bust in 1994, AFAIK;
- WTC has been attacked on 9/11, AFAIK;
- Space Shuttle "Columbia" crashed, AFAIK;
- as well as some other things, AFAIK.

Are you feeling better now?
Do you now believe that I can reason objectively?

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @Manu ... First people say it's all a part of a carefully thought out plan to scam us all, then when that doesn't make sense people say it's their incompetence, a complete contradiction to the previous theory.

Well, everyone is speculating about the reasons for their failure, me thinks...

Quote:

samface wrote: Personally I'm more inclined to agree with the latter, although I would allow some of the blame on plain and simple misfortune too. Not *everything* is their doing, you know.

Yes - as I wrote in my earlier posting.

Quote:

samface wrote: ... Just look at the mob who simply had to warn the City of Kent about Amiga Inc.'s past.

Do you think its respectful in any way to label those, who uncovered McBills lies, as "mob"?

Quote:

samface wrote: The question here isn't if it was justified to do so, I'm just saying that it sure does have it's effects. ...

I bet it was intended to have some effect with this and personally I'm very, very pleased it had the effect it had...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Quote:

AInc paid for OS4 development? Really? When did that happen? (must have missed that) How much did they pay? Can you please provide an link to documents supporting your claim?

Amiga Inc plan's to take OS3,9 up to PowerPC processor level.
They planed this to take 3-4 month and costs 25000$.
Therefore OS-nr is only +0.1 up.

But Hyperion doesn’t stop with this. Hyperion goes on with the development in 8 years
and developed OS4.0 very much more then Amiga Inc planed.
If Amiga Inc planed this from the beginning the have a much larger number over
3.9.

This is very clearly!

The answer is:
Yes, Amiga Inc pays for the 0.1 step!
The other step’s is not in the contract and this should Amiga Inc not pay for.

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@linnar

Quote:

linnar wrote: @Dandy ... Amiga Inc plan's to take OS3,9 up to PowerPC processor level. They planed this to take 3-4 month and costs 25000$. Therefore OS-nr is only +0.1 up. But Hyperion didn’t stop with this. Hyperion went on with the development for 8 years and developed OS4.0 very much more then Amiga Inc planned. If Amiga Inc planned this from the beginning they would have a much larger number over 3.9. This is very clearly! The answer is: Yes, Amiga Inc pays for the 0.1 step! The other step’s is not in the contract and this should Amiga Inc not pay for.

Well, thing is if I read the definition of the design goals of OS 4.0 in the 2001 contract,
I can't avoid the feeling that had Hyperion just included the things classified as "essential" in OS 4.0, the OS would hardly be usable.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Have You the official design for OS4.0?

_________________
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http://www.kensonpro.com
Program, codes for websites, hifi, measuring instruments and more. The site is of more than 1200 pages and nearly 3Gb .

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

Wages, and the none payment of. Anti-Amiga side = Scam Planned from the start.

No, wages not paid to some from what the people involved have said,
credence to such being true increased by a court ruling such was
the case for at least one occurence, order given by court to pay
(Peck case). Bolstered by Seattle Times article quoting Bill in
regard to his own back pay due. Issue in regard in new entity
comes up again in Hare case ruling. Amiga claims to have money now
from Kent deal, people upset they do not use that money towards
such issues. One or two more former employees of the two entities claim similar issues. Way different than the picture you want to paint.

Also your label of "Anti-Amiga side" is unfitting. If anything, this "side" is "Please get your act together so you can succeed Amiga" side.

Quote:

Kent Center: Anti-Amiga side = Scam. Planed from the start. Dirty tricks.

The full motivation is unknown, but the combination of
circumstances and facts known to us paint a rather negative picture for many
people. Independent newspapers documented issues of concern,
numerous ones. The city council gave the issue tremendous time to
play out, despite pressure from the papers and a city public hearing where concerns were raised about partnering with Amiga. Only after they could
not wait any further based on the original deadline for the deal
did it fall through. And only then did any member of the council
then speak to negative impressions. Before that the city lawyer
was firm in some statements but tried to remain hopeful. Forget
about what might have been in Amiga's head from the start on this,
just in looking at their way of dealing with this its bad. And you
can have your dirty politican and unfair reporters theory all you
like, you could be right ALL involved were that way, but its a bit hypocritical to offer that up as a valid defense for Amiga as a victim without proof of fact. When you are all up in arms about proof of fact at the moment. Its just your argument of convenience. And BTW, there seems little doubt Kent wanted the money, not getting it just makes the politicans lives harder, since it has to come out of city resident taxes now.


Quote:

OS4 legal battle: Anti-Amiga side = Scam. Planed from the start simply to spite Hyperion and all faults to cause of the legal case is firmly at the gates of Amiga Inc.

Planned from the start is ridiculous so stop painting things as such. Does it seem to many like they want to grab OS4 up now that Amiga DE / AA1 is dead? Sure is possible. As someone whom you lump in to your "Anti-Amiga side" label I can easily show that your "and all faults to cause of the legal case is firmly at the gate of Amiga Inc." is hogwash as far as what many of us have said. What I have said, many times, in many posts, that I view them (Amiga and Hyperion) as neither seeming to have clean hands in all this. I have stated that I view Hyperion as the lesser of two evils in their actions, in my opinion, and what Hyperion will do should they win, have more clear advantages to our community because what they would do is already out there. They'd sell OS4 on Sam.

Quote:

OS5/AA2: Anti-Amiga side = Pathetic. (Better than OSX? Bah phooey!) The AA needs to run on windows and is just intent rebranded.

Everyone has a right to their opinion. And consumers, unless they are fanboys, are going to say it like they see it. If that perception is to be improved, its up to Amiga to get off their ass and show us how great it is. And lest anyone forget the broader tech savy community (i.e. slashdot, engadget) laughed at the "much better than OS X from Apple" too. If Amiga has such the advanced great product, they need only show everyone, thats pretty easy for them to do, right?


Quote:

If we are going to stick to facts and evidence, then lets play fair. You have to follow the same rules as I do.

The same rules you *think* you do but don't.

Quote:

Sadly yes. Because you spit on my face in as many public places as you can and no matter what I try to do, I'm always having to explain why I have spit on my face.

Thats a ridiculous defense and the reason is simple. Bad publicity just isn't worth it. It should be in their interest to straigten out any misunderstandings, if not for giving a crap about business with the community, but instead at least for any potential business lost with others over all the bad blood documented on the internet, and as I said they already have the Kent thing, the lawsuits, past and present out there. Why pile on by having the rest, which is only fueled by their actions. And you are wrong about them staying mum and hoping critics will fade away, they don't, they promised two different ACK machine choices with dated *self-imposed* deadlines, both missed. Products mind you that only would cater to our community, and they oddly choose to partner with a company that the community already has concerns about to boot. You can't even make this stuff up its so sad.


Quote:

Everytime we try, you spit on us. If I ignore you, perhaps you'll run out of spit so that when I come back with a product that you would actually be interested in, the silent majority behind you can come forward without risking being covered in spit also.

Instead of ignoring though, they dangle the carrot that OS5 has been being working on for years, they say they are releasing new Amigas in Summer and Winter 2007, they ask (in essence from its public posting), please read our open letter to the community on Amiga.com, etc. That they are ignoring us as you would imply is not simply so. And history should be a pretty good teacher that when they continue to announce new self imposed deadlines and fail that public criticism will soon follow. Cause and effect Spacedruid. As for silent majority, almost all polls show the majority has issues with how they handle things. But, even still, most would buy product from them, if they offered any that catered to our general community interests. But there is no evidence of a "silent majority" that is happy with how they act in general.

Quote:

For as long as OS4 is tied up in legal battles and OS5 is in development, they are not going to have a product the community is interested in.

Then show us OS5 screenshots and developer video diary teasers. Invite Amiga Future to write a OS5 preview article. Where is the normal stuff tech companies do to hype the early adopters with simple concrete things? Its been in development for years as per them. Forget the self imposed deadlines, instead just some us some of the cool stuff you have supposedly made in these years of development.

Quote:

Yes, they have slipped on yet another deadline and this again looks bad on them, but even so, the fact they are going public with AA2 shows that they have been very active behind closed doors which pleases me greatly because it bears out my views that Amiga Inc is going to finaly deliver what they promised a decade ago.

You don't even know what AA2 can or can not do. If what it can do is not a lot for argument's sake for a sec than your statement that its mere existence as *something* "bears out my views that Amina Inc is going to finaly deliver what they promised a decade ago" is simply a leap of faith on your part. Because what they promised, a revolution, was a lot. Until a few reputable programmers weigh in on the SDK we have no idea how much effort was required for what they have released so far. You dealing only in facts and others who view them with a grain of salt and a critical eye are not at all? Oh please.

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_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

Bill, you were the single biggest reason why Amiga finaly got itself together and began defending its IP and repuation from all those who thought they could take advantage of the silence. Do you really want people to drag up all those posts you've made in the last 10 years and remind everyone exactly what you did and said?

Did Amiga tell you that? You are basing that on the fact that Amiga told you that specifically right? No? Even if they told you that, do you know for a fact that it was the single biggest reason, or just what they told you, or did they not say that to you at all? Where are your facts man!

Sorry, I could not resist.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@Dandy

Doesn't matter, Hyperion agreed to a contract stating these as minimal and that the final product could be bought back for 25000$.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@samface

Quote:

Say anything about Bill McEwen or Fleecy Moss that doesn't comply with the general opinion of them as the minions of satan himself and have the wrath of the church of Amiga all over you.

"Minions of satan himself". People don't say that, short of perhaps one or two people on Moo Bunny, but you seem to try to paint a picture of those, all those, who oppose your views in a negative light, to a very intense extreme.

Quote:

Personally I'm more inclined to agree with the latter, although I would allow some of the blame on plain and simple misfortune too. Not *everything* is their doing, you know.

If people are entertaining and discussing theories it does not change the bottom line, people are unhappy with them, most of the community, and they aren't doing a lot to fix the issues, whether they are caused by misfortune, theory #1, theory #2, some combination, whatever. You even offer your inclination on a theory. Why is it so distasteful to you that others say what their theory of choice is? Who elected you to decide for everyone what theory topics are approved and those that are not?

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Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@samface

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Of course it does. Just look at the mob who simply had to warn the City of Kent about Amiga Inc.'s past. The question here isn't if it was justified to do so, I'm just saying that it sure does have it's effects.

Please specify, based on facts, its exact impact. Because for all we know what Rich Woods did had zero impact. All we know is that Amiga asked for very broad rights over the advertising in the building late in the game of the deal and ultimatly did not pay. Thats all we know. The city actually even said they were aware of the troubles ahead of time. Neither of us have to believe that. But if you want to be holier than though on facts, truly just stick to them.

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The thing is, it would be *impossible* to continue developing the "classic" Amiga, hardware-wise as well as software-wise. We all came to realize this along time ago. Amiga Inc. did the only real thing to do, they dropped classic Amiga development.

If we "all came to realize this" why are you having to "educate" Manu. He dosen't rate being including in "all" of us? This is why you have people saying you state opinion as fact.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

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As for silent majority, almost all polls show the majority has issues with how they handle things.

This one first since it would get lost in the post before otherwise.

I just want to say, I have many private messages to my account here from members of this website who agree with my posts about the Amiga situation (to varying levels), that don't wish to post in public because of the tongue lashing they will get from the vocal minority.

So yeah, I do believe there are many people eagerly waiting on what Amiga Inc have promised to provide the community despite the best efforts of the vocal minority.

Just thought you'd like to know since you have doubts.

Quote:

About non-payment of wages

I'm not disputing people are owed wages. I'm saying you cannot prove with evidence the full facts of the case. It stands to reason people owed cash are not the most impartial people when talking about working conditions and promises made.

How much is true and how much is padding is unknown to either of us. You choose to take what they are said without requiring evidence to back up these claims. If one story is true (Bolten) then they must all be?

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Also your label of "Anti-Amiga side" is unfitting. If anything, this "side" is "Please get your act together so you can succeed Amiga" side.

That is complete bull.

You may think you wish Amiga well really, but a quick look through your posting history shows you take any chance to throw mud. And you are quite emotionaly involved too. Just have a look through the archives to see how many CAPS and exclaimation marks you use and how often you resort to attacks on peoples character. Like you have done against me in this thread already.

Wither you know it or not my little emotional friend, you hate Amiga Inc with a passion.

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Quote: Kent Center: Anti-Amiga side = Scam. Planed from the start. Dirty tricks. The full motivation is unknown,

EXACTLY MY POINT!!! (Sorry, couldn't resist)

Everything else is just FUD. You are proving to yourself over and over, that Amiga are upto no good by using the previous deed to re-enforce the new one. And the previous deed was framed in your mind in the same way.

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but the combination of circumstances and facts known to us

All that is KNOWN, is that Amiga pulled out of a deal citing reasons I've already given.

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paint a rather negative picture for many people.

The pictures painted in you mind, are painted BY your mind. Nothing factual proves Amigas reasons wrong.

What you believe is entirey irrelevant to the point I'm making. You don't care (or are very loose) about facts when making an anti-Amiga opinion but anyone presenting a pro-Amiga opinion has to establish with facts before you'd even consider it.

That is called double standards.

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Independent newspapers documented issues of concern, numerous ones. The city council gave the issue tremendous time to play out, despite pressure from the papers and a city public hearing where concerns were raised about partnering with Amiga. Only after they could not wait any further based on the original deadline for the deal did it fall through. And only then did any member of the council then speak to negative impressions. Before that the city lawyer was firm in some statements but tried to remain hopeful. Forget about what might have been in Amiga's head from the start on this, just in looking at their way of dealing with this its bad.

Amiga claim the sticking point was advertising. Since the City of Kent were not willing to shift on this, no matter how much extra time they so thoughfuly out of the goodness out their pretty flowery puppy loving hearts provided would have changed a thing (since the City of Kent can't be held to account for THEIR actions in this matter - oh no sir, they must be whiter than white. Amiga are dirty tricks brigade so they must be the only consideration when finding fault in business dealings).

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And you can have your dirty politican and unfair reporters theory all you like, you could be right ALL involved were that way, but its a bit hypocritical to offer that up as a valid defense for Amiga as a victim without proof of fact.

And there you go again. proving my point to me again. Thank you.

I can't provide proof of fact so I'm a hypocrit? I'M A HYPOCRIT?

To you, despite you having NOTHING AS PROOF OF FACT compeletly believe your theory utterly, yet when you impose the same conditions on me, suddenly I'm a fool to even suggest an alternate.

Can you see what I'm trying to point out to you?

Can you see that you are the hypocrate, not I?

Can you see that you are using double standards in your arguments?

THAT is my point.


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Quote: OS4 legal battle: Anti-Amiga side = Scam. Planed from the start simply to spite Hyperion and all faults to cause of the legal case is firmly at the gates of Amiga Inc. Planned from the start is ridiculous so stop painting things as such.

I have read MANY posts from people saying just that. Go look through all the initial posts in reply to Amigas statements about ACK and then OS4, and again later about OS5 or AA2.

Or indeed a random sampling of post that discuss the various trials.

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What I have said, many times, in many posts, that I view them (Amiga and Hyperion) as neither seeming to have clean hands in all this. I have stated that I view Hyperion as the lesser of two evils in their actions, in my opinion, and what Hyperion will do should they win, have more clear advantages to our community because what they would do is already out there. They'd sell OS4 on Sam.

I'm aware of the many things you have said. You say them about a hundred times a week on as many posts as you can.

I'm not going to be drawn in any further into a repeat conversation about these things.

I joined this thread to correct an incorrect assersion and to hopefuly point out to one of the last retailers in this tiny market that they were in danger of sinking as low as the ones they mock, when you drew me into one of your groundhog day conversations.

You brought up the whole "but you need to offer tangible proof to the contrary" which sparked my previous posts.

I think I've argued my point as well as I'm going to - which you can perhaps read and digest and perhaps see things as they really are, or ignore and get emotional with caps, exclaimation marks and name calling?

Either way is fine by me. I'm done here.

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_________________
"Anyone with a modicum of reasonableness may realize that it is like comparing the ride in the world to descend the stairs to catch the milk in the house."

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@SpaceDruid

Quote:

I just want to say, I have many private messages to my account here from members of this website who agree with my posts about the Amiga situation (to varying levels), that don't wish to post in public because of the tongue lashing they will get from the vocal minority.

And this shows a majority? How many hundreds are writing you? Why in all these anonynous polls is this not at all refelected? Where is your factual basis for this given your arguments? I'm getting a tongue lashing from you, linnar, samface. By your logic it should be just as hard to be on this side of the discussion no?

Quote:

It stands to reason people owed cash are not the most impartial people when talking about working conditions and promises made.

Screw court findings right? Say what stands to reason for your argument alone when its just as easy to say that it stands to reason that something is very disturbing about the number of people who have made such claims. You choose to believe Amiga is more likely the victim in this, others think the workers making the claims are more likely to be the victims in this. What makes your conjecture right and others wrong? Opinions often vary on a variety of topics everyday person to person.

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Just have a look through the archives to see how many CAPS and exclaimation marks you use and how often you resort to attacks on peoples character. Like you have done against me in this thread already.

Please use the report button against my post(s) and follow it up with a message to the mods then if this is really what you are seeing. I remember a post in particular you made to me once that was very personally off-base. I brought it to the mods as it was quite disturbing on its face value. I was assured it was likely meant as a joke by you, and I then at that point treated it as such, especially after you modified the text later. I don't seek a personal quarrel with you. I don't see any place I've attacked your character. If you are reading that in my writing style I apologize, as its certainly not intended. I don't know what to say beyond that. If you choose to be sure otherwise, to the point of declaring so to the whole world here I suppose thats your business.

Quote:

I'm aware of the many things you have said. You say them about a hundred times a week on as many posts as you can.

If you think a post count limit is in order please take it up with the mods. Last I checked plenty of people have a higher post count than me. Not that a high post count should be something to bash someone over. If you don't like what I post, don't read it. I've greatly stayed out of the court threads for a while now for that exact reason myself, being tired of the posts in general in such threads. If you've reached that point with these threads it is what it is and there is nothing wrong with that. As an aside, my reply to you that you are now speaking to I did not post until 52+ hours after your message to me. Is this really breakneck posting in this day and age? My account is older than yours. If one did a date extrapolation on where your post count would be if your account was as old it dosen't look like it would be that much different in post count BTW.

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Wither you know it or not my little emotional friend, you hate Amiga Inc with a passion.

I'm not sure how to read this as anything but meant to be insulting and demeaning. I don't remember ever giving you such treatment, calling you names. Frankly I have enough respect for your differing viewpoint and what I have percieved in the past as your general thoughtfulness that I will hope you wrote this in the heat of the moment and can leave things at agreeing to disagree.

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_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200