@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @samface As I said I am dying for a NUMBER (i.e. bunch, hell, a few even) of known skilled programmers to confirm this SDK as having real promise and that its indeed a fresh idea.

What you said here was:

Quote:

We haven't even had reliable independent verification it really exists (IMHO) as what they say it is, which isn't much

While previously having said:

Quote:

Well its interesting to hear of someone confirming the existence of AA2 as a real product.

You don't find anything in the above the slightest contradictory? And in case you are going to try arguing that it was never confirmed to be what they (AInc) say it is, ghauber said later in the same thread:

Quote:

@fairlanefastback Quote: Out of curiousity how will anyone run it at that time? Just like any other application on their PC or mobile or whatever.

Which is more or less exactly what Amiga Inc. says AA2 will do. Although, having said this, I agree to your sentiment that it isn't much. But then again, you never were interested in the technical details, now were you?

Quote:

Guys who have apps we know so we can be confident its true and have a sense its reliable, not only that something exists, but its something like what they are saying it is.

Should I interpret this as that you don't trust ghauber's statements?

Quote:

That in no way conflicts with me saying "well its interesting to hear of someone confirming the existence of AA2 as a real product". Thats pretty obvious I think.

I strongly disagree. What is obvious is that you didn't expect me to have read that thread.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@ghauber

Quote:

ghauber wrote: @fairlanefastback ;) Yes, I had it ahead of the release to SDA developers. The reason for that, though, is I have a contract with Amiga Inc. That's why I said in the other thread that the licensing for the stuff I'm developing will be handled by Amiga Inc. (Speaking of low post counts... I literally doubled my post count by participating in that thread!)

LOL! Well I wish you luck on your projects with them sincerely. I really do hope this is the beginning of some turn around for them. It would be nice to see some end-user products that people would want to start to bring some respectibility back to the brand. Hopefully some other programmers will be able to additionally verify that this SDK is what Amiga says it is. That would be nice to hear.

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@samface

Quote:

Should I interpret this as that you don't trust ghauber's statements?

You are clearly trying to bait me here. Its pretty obvious that I likely don't know a person very well who has less than 18 posts as of this writing in a matter of years. Trust is earned through personal experience with someone over time. That dosen't mean I "distrust" them, but I have no reason for implicit trust either, hence my "grain of salt" comment. If you want people to take what *anyone* says on the internet at face value I might have to wonder if you are behind all those Nigerian email scams! LOL. I hope that clarifies what I mean. I also mentioned that my grain of salt was also because he seemed to have too much knowledge about it so soon after the SDK release. He has since offered up an explaination now a few posts ago, that he was privy to it before release. I said it was interesting to see someone else offering a confirmation. I did not say that meant it was reliable enough in my mind to fully believe it yet. And thats not even touching on one statement only dealing with its sheer existance, and the other addressing beyond that whether it is what Amiga touts it to be.

Quote:

What is obvious is that you didn't expect me to have read that thread.

Oh please. Get over yourself.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 06-Feb-2008 at 05:39 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 06-Feb-2008 at 05:38 AM.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @samface Quote: For the third time, while delivering mail by ordinary snail mail does the same job as sending mail by e-mail, the difference lies with how it's done. This is all well and good but unless you have seen AA2 under the hood how can you make an assertion that Java is not a fair comparison when its the one Bill McEwen himself addressed. He did not say its not comparable, or not a good comparison even and offer something else as a comparison instead.

The thing is, I didn't say it wasn't comparable either. In fact, I even stated that such comparison could be made for the sake of pointing out the differences. It's also exactly what Bill McEwen does when he is confronted with the question of how it compares to Java, he tries to point out how they are different. The comparison you made was the kind that portrayed it as the same thing and that is what I'm saying is a bad comparison. Am I being clear enough yet?

Quote:

Also technical differences don't always translate in to the difference in the market that a product serves.

In this case, it sure does. Again, imagine not needing an OS at all anymore. Just buy any hardware you like, completely disregard anything under the hood except for performance vs price issues. Then take any program, game or any kind of digital content and shove it in your computer through any input interface of your choice and *pof*, it automagicly runs with no hardware drivers or OS installed. That's what you can do when you integrate hypervisor technology directly into the application. Think you can do that with Java?

I'm not saying you can do this with AA2, I'm just saying these things are possible with this kind of technology if utilized to it's fullest potential. This technology is not in some distant future, it exists today and is pushed forwards by the big players in the industry. My hopes are that AA2 is atleast a step in this direction, taking the Amiga back into the cutting edge of computing.

If not, there are still plenty of reasons for why it's far from the same thing as a JavaVM.

Quote:

And BTW if you do know whats under the hood of AA2 because you are a developer using it please just say so.

I don't and I'm not. Although, I did get the AmigaDE SDK and toyed with it for a while. I'm more like a very interested bystander with my own consulting firm and not enough spare time to get involved with projects that doesn't immidiately put food on the table for me, my girlfriend and my son.

Quote:

Quote: Too bad, you'd see the reasons if you did. Since the only comparison addressed by Amiga, Inc. is to Java and you don't work for Amiga why should I adopt your theory that something like VMWare is a better comparison? Reading up on the technology behind VMWare may make me more aware of the differences between it and Java. But AA2 is not documented to the public enough to say your theory is at all right, that something like VMWare is more like AA2 than Java is. I find it very odd when guys project what they hope new Amiga products will be onto stuff we don't have too much info on. We have to go with what we know. What we know is that they addressed a Java comparison on some level. Thats it.

People, not Amiga Inc., seem to compare it to Java since that seems to be what most not so technically inclined people can relate to, hence why it ended up on their FAQ. A discussion about hypervisor technology and what type of VMM the AA is would find it's natural place in technical documentations and developer forums rather than in a public announcement, wouldn't you agree?

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@Troels

Quote:

Troels wrote: @koan ... I am beginning to think that Amiga Inc might actually have done some work on OS5! ...

Yes - they virtualised it!


Or with other words:
They worked really hard on something not physically existing...

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Ciao

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@fairlanefastback

Fairlane, your prodigious writing on these forums on almost every topic always amazes me. And I usually enjoy and look for your posts - you seem to be a very clear thinker with interesting perspectives.

Also amazing is how far afield a thread can go so quickly, with participants re-stating, their restatements of an earlier point. Only to be misconstrued again and around we go - discussing our discussion, rather than the topic at hand. Not quite sure why your early comments on this thread drew fire from samface, nor how you muster the stamina to restate your statements which you already restated very clearly 4 posts back. If it were me, I'd throw my hands up and say, believe whatever the hell you like... wrong though it may be. Hence my admiration for your posting record.

Last edited by jingof on 06-Feb-2008 at 09:33 AM.

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@ghauber

I've just posted my NDA, so hope to see things soon, but I am no programmer, rather consult with a programming company.

I liked TAO, but that is not there anymore.

Its probably got no JAVA dependencies (I hope!!).

NDAs are tricky, but if you could in a very general way say something else about it, just impressions would help.

The company I deal with is very interested in cross platform, for many years now - not JAVA (that has been well and truely rejected). We have been waiting on REBOL 3 as a possible avenue, but AA2/OS5 pulls it off well and good.

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@samface

Quote:

In this case, it sure does. Again, imagine not needing an OS at all anymore. Just buy any hardware you like, completely disregard anything under the hood except for performance vs price issues. Then take any program, game or any kind of digital content and shove it in your computer through any input interface of your choice and *pof*, it automagicly runs with no hardware drivers or OS installed. That's what you can do when you integrate hypervisor technology directly into the application. Think you can do that with Java? I'm not saying you can do this with AA2, I'm just saying these things are possible with this kind of technology if utilized to it's fullest potential. This technology is not in some distant future, it exists today and is pushed forwards by the big players in the industry. My hopes are that AA2 is atleast a step in this direction, taking the Amiga back into the cutting edge of computing. If not, there are still plenty of reasons for why it's far from the same thing as a JavaVM.

Amiga Inc has no way the resources required to develop or push such a Hypervisor VM and nothing from what we seen from them supports your claims which are as you said "hopes". Additionally AmigaAnywhere 1, which we do know, is much closer to a Java VM than a Hypervisor one.

Quote:

People, not Amiga Inc., seem to compare it to Java since that seems to be what most not so technically inclined people can relate to, hence why it ended up on their FAQ.

I like how you present your personal believes as facts.

Last edited by dimitros on 06-Feb-2008 at 10:04 AM.
Last edited by dimitros on 06-Feb-2008 at 10:02 AM.

@samface

Quote:

Should I interpret this as that you don't trust ghauber's statements?

I can fully understand him wanting confirmation from more than 1 person. I am someone relatively unknown. I'm not some known Amiga celebrity. I'm just some random developer as far as most people here are concerned - I have built very little reputation in the Amiga scene. If I was in fairlanefastback's shoes, I'd not be satisfied with just one person confirming AA2's existence - especially since because of NDAs, etc, I cannot really say anything publically more than what Amiga Inc themselves have said.

And actions really do speak louder than words.

Having said all that - I notice that no one else has noticed (or if they have, they haven't reported it) that ZeoNeo's game "Invasion" has been ported to AA2 and is being published under Amiga's name and is featured in the games section on Microsoft's mobile website? https://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/domore/beplayful.mspx

Gabriel

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@GregS

I'm not sure why if you're not a programmer you'd sign up, but meh. The AA2 SDK is entirely programmer oriented. There's nothing in it for the end-user except for things that people develop and publish with it.

You are right - there is no Tao there any more. Neither is there Java (to my disappointment, in some respects - I am mostly a Java developer). Although one of the build tools in the SDK (not the current SDA release) depends on Java, but it's an optional tool (it's the Apache Ant build tool, provided as an alternative to Makefiles for those who, like me, prefer it; most people will use Make i guess because that's what they are familiar with).

Quote:

NDAs are tricky, but if you could in a very general way say something else about it, just impressions would help.

It's got some good ideas. It solves some problems that plague mobile Java and other cross-platform solutions. There are other problems it has yet to solve. It's pretty easy to get started with. Takes no time at all to get a graphical "hello world" up that runs on both desktop and mobile devices, with no installation of a runtime or VM required to run your compiled application. The APIs cover a wide breadth of functionality, but in some places the APIs don't run very deep. You can do a lot with it as it already stands, but it won't wash your dishes or solve global warming.

There, is that general enough? ;)

Gabriel

_________________

@ghauber

Quote:

Having said all that - I notice that no one else has noticed (or if they have, they haven't reported it) that ZeoNeo's game "Invasion" has been ported to AA2 and is being published under Amiga's name and is featured in the games section on Microsoft's mobile website?

I noticed it. I'm behind on posting links. Heh!

from Feb.1, 2008

#6

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@ghauber

Thanks Gabriel. My role is to work out how viable it is as a system for the company I advise. So other than doing a couple of really simple "hello worlds" it won't be much at all, but I have to assess the thing before I can suggest whether it fits the needs.

Running through the APIs will probably give me the best idea, trying to work out how such an app runs without a runtime or VM is going to be interesting -- are you suggesting this is multi-cpu compatible - or just same cpu-family compatible but for very different devices?

I understand that some APIs might be on the thin side (OS5 and further development). For us it will be a matter of whether what we want is there, but we don't need everything and the kitchen sink.

It will probably take a week or more, but I look forward to seeing the SDK.

Despite what everyone says, the fact is if AA 2 and OS5 do get the recipe right (and it sounds like a good combo in general -- I like the idea of hosted and non-hosted single compilation software -- with caveats acknowledged), there is a very big need for such a software base, especially for the project we have in mind 9niche market stuff unfortunately).

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@GregS

Hello Greg. I just think, that you might as well still wait a bit for REBOL3. It is going to be a cool system. Of course, not so media-aware initially, but for lightweight application related development, it will be good enough. I think that in one month we will see public alpha 2, with VID3 proto3 and Unicodified release

Of course, if AA2 offers such stuff as typical UI elements, it will be good. But I was owner of AA1, and it has nothing like that. VID will be much more usefull here for typical application development.

My personal bet is, that the whole AA2 is .Net based, but not sure of course. If it is not JAVA, and if it is not Intent, how many virtual machines are out there? Well, plenty of, but surrounding stuff? Looking at Amiga India, those guys are mainly .Net and JAVA developers.

... just my 2 cents ...

Cheers,
Petr

Last edited by -pekr- on 06-Feb-2008 at 04:12 PM.

@ghauber

Quote:

You are right - there is no Tao there any more. Neither is there Java

Gabriel, I may have missed this earlier on but did you develop for AA1 as well?

You mention that the APIs are fairly comprehensive so I'm wondering if AA2 is a complete departure or did they maintain call compatibility?

Also, can you say what the principal coding language is?

@fairlanefastback/thread

I see no reason to not believe in what ghauber has told us. He doesn't work for AI, and has commented a fair amount in the past regarding AA.

It would be nice to know just what AIs AA2 NDA covers, API specifics, technical discussion to some extent, or what (which yes, seems rather odd, but then again they also have attempted to charge for it in the past, versus Java on .Net for free..).

I'd still like more info, from a technical perspective at least, although I don't believe I'd be willing to sign their NDA over it, either.

It's certainly possible AA2 runs on top of a hypervisor or similar in nature (as in, on the host OS versus directly on hardware, as shown by the CES '/DE demo'), but without additional info, it's hard to compare it to much of anything, and it still seems to be most directly comparable to a JRE or .Net runtime.

I find it fairly unlikely you're going to see many AA2 devs posting, however..my impression is that AI irritated enough of their AA devs that there simply aren't that many left to 'migrate' to AA2, not to mention I believe the terms of their royalties/contratc to be....highly unfavorable.

Someone did ask a very good question though- is AA2 backward compatible at the runtime or API level with AA?

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@samface

Quote:

I'm not saying you can do this with AA2, I'm just saying these things are possible with this kind of technology if utilized to it's fullest potential.

This thread has a topic Samface. Since you admit no idea as to what AA2 can do why do you keep trying to muddle the conversation with what you HOPE it will be? The comparison addressed was Java by them. Thats it, get over it. Thats not to say they will never address a VMWare comparison, but until they do there is no point in drifting off into your fantasy land. And as I stated before, either way given their track record as a company taking on Sun or VMWare (the company) is sadly likely doomed. It dosen't sound like a good business plan unless they have some really tremendous ace in hole we don't know about. Maybe they do have that. If they do, bravo for them! But its only rational to figure at this junction that their odds of beating the competition suck.

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@jingof

Thanks.

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@dimitros

Quote:

dimitros wrote: @samface I like how you present your personal believes as facts.

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@wegster

Quote:

I see no reason to not believe in what ghauber has told us. He doesn't work for AI, and has commented a fair amount in the past regarding AA.

I'm assuming his fair amount of posting has been in IRC and/or other sites since his post count is under 20 at this point. He has said he under contract with AI, so he is a business partner. I am very unhappy to see that you've somewhat bought into what Samface was trying to do here, which was make it sound like anyone was trying to question ghauber's integrity. Its not about that. His answering questions has been thanked consistently. It was a question of the value of more fully indepedent opinions coming forth. Like from people like Tigger and ssolie for instance could be helpful (as examples). If we start seeing a consensus of programmers saying this thing is real deal and kick ass it holds more value than from one single person that most of us may not recognize at all since in years he has less than 20 posts on this site.

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@GregS

Quote:

not JAVA (that has been well and truely rejected).

What's wrong with it?