@GregS

What I'm most curious about is the statement someone made earlier on that AA2 will be portable across OSs, but not virtualize the CPU like Java or .net. That tells me that the SDK going to be something like a cross compiler and a set of libraries, but Amiga Inc's marketing makes it sound like much more than that. Is it just a case of the marketing dept. running the company, or have they really come up with something truly new? Obviously, the NDA would prevent you from giving details, but I think "it is/isn't just a crosscompiler and some libs" should be safe to divulge and would answer a lot of questions about AA2.

@ghauber

Quote:

ghauber wrote: @samface Quote: Should I interpret this as that you don't trust ghauber's statements? I can fully understand him wanting confirmation from more than 1 person. I am someone relatively unknown. I'm not some known Amiga celebrity. I'm just some random developer as far as most people here are concerned - I have built very little reputation in the Amiga scene. If I was in fairlanefastback's shoes, I'd not be satisfied with just one person confirming AA2's existence - especially since because of NDAs, etc, I cannot really say anything publically more than what Amiga Inc themselves have said. And actions really do speak louder than words. Having said all that - I notice that no one else has noticed (or if they have, they haven't reported it) that ZeoNeo's game "Invasion" has been ported to AA2 and is being published under Amiga's name and is featured in the games section on Microsoft's mobile website? https://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/domore/beplayful.mspx Gabriel

Thanks Gabriel.

BTW I took a look at the Microsoft and Amiga sites for Invasion, I did not see where they say its an AA2 title now? Also its still only listed for MS operating systems, like Windows. AA2 is supposed to have Symbian, Linux, and Mac support too by now I believe. Do you know where one would purchase for those AA2 supported operating systems?

http://www.amiga.com/shop/?prod_id=93

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@ghauber

Quote:

It's got some good ideas. It solves some problems that plague mobile Java and other cross-platform solutions. There are other problems it has yet to solve. It's pretty easy to get started with. Takes no time at all to get a graphical "hello world" up that runs on both desktop and mobile devices, with no installation of a runtime or VM required to run your compiled application. The APIs cover a wide breadth of functionality, but in some places the APIs don't run very deep. You can do a lot with it as it already stands, but it won't wash your dishes or solve global warming.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing on this.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @wegster Quote: I see no reason to not believe in what ghauber has told us. He doesn't work for AI, and has commented a fair amount in the past regarding AA. I'm assuming his fair amount of posting has been in IRC and/or other sites since his post count is under 20 at this point. He has said he under contract with AI, so he is a business partner. I am very unhappy to see that you've somewhat bought into what Samface was trying to do here, which was make it sound like anyone was trying to question ghauber's integrity. Its not about that. His answering questions has been thanked consistently. It was a question of the value of more fully indepedent opinions coming forth. Like from people like Tigger and ssolie for instance could be helpful (as examples). If we start seeing a consensus of programmers saying this thing is real deal and kick ass it holds more value than from one single person that most of us may not recognize at all since in years he has less than 20 posts on this site.

The point was already stated - he has provided us on the forum with info on AA in a sane manner, that others have not, and I see no reason to discount his contributions.

Sure, it would be nice to see more devs weighing in, but I simply don't think there are very many of them, let alone also AW/Amiga site posters.

I didn't say anything about 'buying in' to anything. We don't have enough info to come to a conclusion either way. I can remain interested in a technical discussion, even possibilities, while believing personally it will fail, even if it IS a worthwhile product, due to AI being involved.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

Quote:

We don't have enough info to come to a conclusion either way

Not to interrupt the debate here but has anyone contacted Amiga and asked them when details will be made public?

Yeah, I know it sounds rhetorical but the opportunity and the interest is there.

@wegster

Quote:

The point was already stated - he has provided us on the forum with info on AA in a sane manner, that others have not, and I see no reason to discount his contributions.

Amiga.com's latest FAQ is written in a sane manner too. I didn't say I was dismissing ghauber in anyway, just taking what he said with a grain of salt, since I don't know him and he is in contract with AI.

Quote:

Sure, it would be nice to see more devs weighing in, but I simply don't think there are very many of them, let alone also AW/Amiga site posters.

All I said is it will take a number of devs to weigh in that this thing is legit for what its claiming to be for me to personally believe without reservations.

Quote:

I didn't say anything about 'buying in' to anything. We don't have enough info to come to a conclusion either way. I can remain interested in a technical discussion,

Somewhat buying in was my label, I did not say you said that. And I did not say you were somewhat buying in to his technical point. Rather I was saying you somewhat bought into his trying to muddy the waters of this thread with some idea that I was trying to discredit ghauber. Something I was obviously not trying to do and for which ghauber himself has graciously clarified why one might have reservations towards what he has reported..

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 06-Feb-2008 at 09:09 PM.

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@ne_one

Quote:

ne_one wrote: @wegster Quote: We don't have enough info to come to a conclusion either way Not to interrupt the debate here but has anyone contacted Amiga and asked them when details will be made public? Yeah, I know it sounds rhetorical but the opportunity and the interest is there.

You can apply for SDK access via the amiga.com site, which requires NDA being signed.

Then of course, you may not be able to discuss much, presumably at the API level, but who knows?

If they NDA their SDK and API, I wouldn't except much 'technical discussion' in public...other than perhaps some clarification at higher levels.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

Quote:

If they NDA their SDK and API, I wouldn't except much 'technical discussion' in public...other than perhaps some clarification at higher levels.

Gee I dunno, I'm thinking some information would be nice to help convince people that it's worth bothering to apply for the SDK.

It's understandable that some elements of the IP are covered by an NDA but they don't even present enough basic information to make it compelling.

@dimitros

Quote:

dimitros wrote: @samface Amiga Inc has no way the resources required to develop or push such a Hypervisor VM and nothing from what we seen from them supports your claims which are as you said "hopes". Additionally AmigaAnywhere 1, which we do know, is much closer to a Java VM than a Hypervisor one.

What kind of developer resources they have and what they are capable of is irrelevant to what their product is capable of. As an example, they never had they resources to develop software like the AmigaDE from scratch, now did they?

And no, I do not agree to your suggestion that the AA1 would be closer to a JavaVM than a hypervisor. With a full blown virtual processor for which you can program and compile for using basicly any programming language and even run a JavaVM ontop of (included), it sure is quite far from the same thing as a mere JavaVM and provides functionalities more similar to the ones of a Hypervisor.

Quote:

Quote: People, not Amiga Inc., seem to compare it to Java since that seems to be what most not so technically inclined people can relate to, hence why it ended up on their FAQ. I like how you present your personal believes as facts.

To describe how something seems to me is NOT to present ones personal believes as fact, on the contrary. Take a look at my wording again.

Last edited by samface on 07-Feb-2008 at 12:42 AM.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @dimitros Quote: dimitros wrote: @samface I like how you present your personal believes as facts.

Yes, very funny, especially as it is an attempt to present personal believes as facts in itself.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@ne_one

Quote:

Gabriel, I may have missed this earlier on but did you develop for AA1 as well?

Yes. My main focus was a Java API built in VP asm, but unfortunately due to various issues it never saw the light of day :(

Quote:

You mention that the APIs are fairly comprehensive so I'm wondering if AA2 is a complete departure or did they maintain call compatibility?

AA2 is not intent, so the API is different. But similar enough (in the areas where there is functional overlap) that it wouldn't be hard at all to port - a simple search/replace on things like pixmap drawing functions, for example. Or maybe #define's or something.

Quote:

Also, can you say what the principal coding language is?

C/C++

_________________

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @fairlanefastback Yes, very funny, especially as it is an attempt to present personal believes as facts in itself.

What?

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 07-Feb-2008 at 12:20 AM.

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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

If we start seeing a consensus of programmers saying this thing is real deal and kick ass it holds more value than from one single person that most of us may not recognize at all since in years he has less than 20 posts on this site.

If it helps, I'll push my post count up above the 20 mark (21 with this post!)? And if you combine my post count here with my post count from Amiga.org (57 at the moment) that makes a grand total of 78!!! I'm sure I posted somewhat to ann.lu some time back too... That's gotta push me over the 100 mark in terms of posts to Amiga-related forums

_________________

@ghauber

Quote:

ghauber wrote: @fairlanefastback Quote: If we start seeing a consensus of programmers saying this thing is real deal and kick ass it holds more value than from one single person that most of us may not recognize at all since in years he has less than 20 posts on this site. If it helps, I'll push my post count up above the 20 mark (21 with this post!)? And if you combine my post count here with my post count from Amiga.org (57 at the moment) that makes a grand total of 78!!! I'm sure I posted somewhat to ann.lu some time back too... That's gotta push me over the 100 mark in terms of posts to Amiga-related forums

_________________
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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @samface Quote: I'm not saying you can do this with AA2, I'm just saying these things are possible with this kind of technology if utilized to it's fullest potential. This thread has a topic Samface. Since you admit no idea as to what AA2 can do why do you keep trying to muddle the conversation with what you HOPE it will be?

Why do you try to muddle the conversation with your assumption that it would simply be another Java-like solution? In case you forgot, I responded to your "why another java" argument and said that it was time to finally put an end to that misleading comparison. Well, now that you argue we couldn't possibly know what it's like, wouldn't that apply to your own previously stated claims as well?

Quote:

The comparison addressed was Java by them. Thats it, get over it.

False. Java isn't mentioned in their FAQ and in the video, the reporter is the one who asked how it compared to java. Bill wouldn't have said anything about it otherwise and what he said was only to point out the differences rather than to portray it as similar. So please, I'm not going to "get over" this false claim.

Quote:

Thats not to say they will never address a VMWare comparison, but until they do there is no point in drifting off into your fantasy land.

You asked "why another java", I responded by trying to explain not just why AA was far more than any other Java-iike solution but also the vast differences in various virtualization technologies and how it has become "the next big thing(TM)" in the industry. These are no fantasies and I really do suggest taking the time and read up about it if you want to stay on top of where we're going instead of being stuck in the impossible dream of the Amiga recapturing the dektop market like some people around these parts.

Quote:

And as I stated before, either way given their track record as a company taking on Sun or VMWare (the company) is sadly likely doomed. It dosen't sound like a good business plan unless they have some really tremendous ace in hole we don't know about. Maybe they do have that. If they do, bravo for them! But its only rational to figure at this junction that their odds of beating the competition suck.

The above is completely irrelvant to any of the matters I've been trying to discuss. I though it was clear that I have no interest in discussing Amiga Inc.'s "track record" or anything related thereto.

Last edited by samface on 07-Feb-2008 at 12:49 AM.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@wegster

Quote:

The point was already stated - he has provided us on the forum with info on AA in a sane manner, that others have not, and I see no reason to discount his contributions.

I see no one discounting my contributions here... Looking for more independent confirmation in order to build confidence, yes, but no discounting that I noticed. It's flattering and all that you and others feel the need to defend me, but honestly, I think you're fighting a phantom. What fairlanefastback is saying is quite legitimate.

Gabriel

_________________

@ghauber

Quote:

I can fully understand him wanting confirmation from more than 1 person.

Well, I do get it too. The thing was that he portrayed the situation as noone had come forward and confirmed it's existence, which you did. He was very aware of this, yet made no mention of it. If he had said something along the lines "one person has claimed that it is real but he is unfortunately a stranger to me so I will not assume anything until we have had more people confirm it", I would've been fine with it.

Yeah, Invasion seems to even be promoted as a "Featured Offer". Good for ZeoNeo, hopefully more Amiga developers will start selling their stuff on microsoft.com as well.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @samface Quote: samface wrote: @fairlanefastback Yes, very funny, especially as it is an attempt to present personal believes as facts in itself. What?

The claim he made was that I posted my personal beliefs as facts when I was in fact using the wording "it seems", as in describing how things appears to me rather than to claim to know it to be true as a matter of fact. That made his claim false. A claim which was presented as a matter of fact. Is it really that hard to see?

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

The thing was that he portrayed the situation as noone had come forward and confirmed it's existence, which you did. He was very aware of this, yet made no mention of it.

Dude I've tried to discuss this with you nicely. You want to keep accusing me of something regardless. The person involved even understands what I said, what more can you want? Character assasination appears to be your game, or your insatiable desire to feel as if you've "won". Keep re-reading my posts until you get it, or if you don't, well sorry. You have a longstanding reputation in this regard, to the point you've even been satirized:

http://tinyurl.com/yrxr4g

Despite that I tried as I said to make clear to you what is already clear to others but to do so with further posts will just drag this thread further off topic. I stand on what I have already said.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 07-Feb-2008 at 01:04 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 07-Feb-2008 at 01:02 AM.

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@CodeSmith

It will probably be some time before I see anything, a crosscompile system, unless it was done in some really special and unusual way probably would not suit. I admit the only way that could work is something like TAO -- virtulized code that is recompiled to run on this or that system. I could see this being done and working well, but it would have to be seamless.

I am very interested in seeing what it is.

@-pekr- and @CodeSmith

At the moment I can only recomend REBOL 3, the present alpha is limited, but the full system looks capable of doing just about anything. They also have the "wildman" project, an OS specially designed to run REBOL 3 -- that could fulfil our needs very well.

Critical to us is having a player type device, cross platform and same application code (compiled or uncompiled). Room for generalisied compiled code, that may have to be ported for different CPUs, but in an environment that is well cushioned against hosted OSes.

REBOL 3 does supply that, and yes heavy duty code would have to ported, but the compilation, from what I can gather could be quite OS independant. People under-estimate the role of interpreted scripts in heavy duty applications. Where true compiling is used it should be sparing and be in the form of "engines" of a general nature. The off-the-shelf fully compiled app, has had its day as far as we are concerned.

We also want a stripped down "native" OS that allows us to create a more elaborate working environment the "wildman" project promises this. Arguably OS4 has great potential as well, but for us it would need to be running on some standard HW - like the PS3.

I would need to get some clear idea about OS5 before I could recomend it as pathway. We also have a natural timetable -- the release of REBOL 3. If it comes out and none of the rest is clear, then that is the way I will be recomending.

@soft
Re JAVA, there is an expodential bulk growth when doing anything non-trivial in JAVA, plus its different flavours causes problems.

It is a very heavy OOPs environment, bulk is major problem, the quick efficient app that is reasonably stable is problematic.

JAVA is appealing when doing simple things, and big apps can be made and coaxed on fast machines to run at a reasonable speed -- but maintaining the code!! Making substantial improvements etc that becomes a major headache (not my opinion, I do not have the experience or knowledge in programming to form a judgement).

I am told, and theoretically I can see thde problem -- its is the OOPs approach that causes most of the problems, doing things simply is just a bit of an allusion, behind it there is a lot of needless bulk.



As things stand REBOL 3 has a definite edge, but AA 2 and OS5 remain unknown. I do not favour dismissing possible technical improvements on the basis on whether some people liked or disliked the company that produced them. Amiga Inc may really have something or they may not, it may have something worthwhile but not in a form that is useful to our immediate needs. It might not even be a great innovation as such, just well put together -- that sometimes is enough.

The other thing is innovations tend to reflect the size of the company that produces them. MS makes "innovations" that resemble its over-complex and large structure.

JAVA resembles SUN in this regard.

Small companies are far more likely to cut the knot of OS and app bloat than any big one. Amiga Inc has that in its favour. Plus I will also add I do not gainsay the achievements of OS4 which is by any measure a good operating system - in my opinion put that on the PS3, REBOL 3, and strip it back, would be a potent combination.

My feeling is that this year will see a number of moves in the right direction Syllable has virtues as well and already incorporates REBOL and later REBOL 3.

What would be perfect , aside from seamless cross-platform - is a small, tiny, service orientated OS (probably not even with a desktop), and a GUI rich application environment that relies on scripts for most of the bells and whistles. Separating out the OS (foundation) from the app environment (superstructure) is what is needed, AA2 plus OS5 could do that. REBOL 3 plus wildman also fits the same picture.

JAVA will never have its own OS, it does for this reason also has no long term future. It is always a VM machine hosted -- our biggest problems, in the long term, is bulky OSes (hosts).

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