@DBAlex

It's planned to happen, the biggest AROS's Bounties are targeted so we can have 68k amiga binaries running on AROS, and freeing Amiga OS all together so that *UAE, Minimig and others can finally be free of Amiga Inc IP .

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I think it is good that people develop using WinUAE since any development is good. I don't think it is bad using it at all, and if I were to use it I could say that I use AmigaOS, but I would never say "I am working with my Amiga" when I'm actually only using a program in Windows on a PC.

Sure noone thought about the Amiga when designing the Teron board, but by taking just that and make it the only board ever (almost) to run the new AmigaOS makes it into an Amiga computer. Not a genuine as such a Classic of course, but way more than any common PC will ever be.

I rather not speculate if someone would take a PC, but U-Boot in it and sell it as an Amiga because the idea of Amiga on a PC makes me sick. Really.

The only thing beneficial in a PC is the strangely high speed they have managed to make that insane hack of a CPU family to perform at.

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@BigBentheAussie

> it could well be based on x86, and it probably needs to be to be competitive, but it
> should be sold like Macs are, as a hardware/software combination, because that
> is what it was known for all along. And why not?..... it works for Apple, and the
> Amiga users who are true enthusiasts, will have to build it up to being in Apple's
> league technically someday. Even getting .01 percent of Apples sales would be
> enough for a sustainable software market

I completely agree both on your retrospective, and this last part I am quoting. What Amiga used to be is what Amiga should become: a hardware/software combination where the hardware is at least partly specialized (ie: integrated and yet powerful graphic and audio chipset) and the software is reminiscient of the Classic Amiga feeling, with an advance workbenchlike Os.

The problem is that that .01 percent niche is not sustainable as you believe. Not for a complex (re)engineering project like this.

The more time passes, the more I think that Amiga somewhat missed the prophet factor: a key single evangelist like Steve Jobs was to the Mac, Bill Gates to the PC and more recently Linus Torvalds to the Linux Os, otherwise today we'd have a fourth titan in the war for the desktop pc dominance.



Still, the question remains: what IS amiga now? And the answer is that it's nothing. Scattered remains: a OS here, some hardware there, a non existing brand. I hate to say this, but maybe it's time to just let it go. *Sigh*, it's hard to have been 12 years old in the days of glory and wake up 30 and trying to find a decent setup for WinUae... ;)

Last edited by resle on 04-Sep-2008 at 07:25 PM.

@resle


what is Amiga :

http://www.basden.demon.co.uk/amiga/amiga.diffnt.html#in.brief

All of these are Amiga :


Custom made hardware specifically designed and optimized to run AmigaOS directly and
run Amiga games and apps.
Preferably using the Amiga custom chip hardware or a custom chip alternative in hardware.
Must have the 'Amiga feel'

Amiga compatible

Any hardware that runs AmigaOS (68k or other) directly and runs Amiga games and apps.
Must have the 'Amiga feel'

Any hardware that runs AmigaOS clone directly (68k or other) and runs AmigaOS games and apps.
Must have the 'Amiga feel'

The sticky problem to define Amiga is:
If Commodore was around now, used a Normal laptop, modified AmigaOS to make use of it, run Amiga games and apps and had the 'Amiga feel' - is it still an Amiga ? Does it really matter ?

I would call it Amigatized
The goal of Amiga is to run AmigaOS on everything !
The goal of Amiga is to have an Amiga family, to grow, to help, share code together !
(no matter how its done)

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@DBAlex

That's easy. Any Hardware running AmigaOS 4+

We don't need classic. Back at the classic days we didn't even need classic. We were too busy putting in hardware to beat PC's. And we did fine to Pc's got over 400Mhz, then we got lost.......... lagging behind a little ever since.

But we still got the best OS. It's called AmigaOS 4.1

Last edited by Speedy on 04-Sep-2008 at 09:16 PM.

@NutsAboutAmiga

The DOS-version of Doom (the original version) runs at the resolution of 320x200. This is also true for games like Heretic and Hexen. The Amiga was also better at 2D games at the time (fast shootem ups with many sprites on screen).

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

The point is that Amiga hardware was never that grate, yes there was a short period in 198x whit Amiga1000, Amiga500, when Amiga was untouchable.

Well, if Mac now was so superior, how come the fastest 68k Mac you could get was an Amiga running ShapeShifter

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@pixie

OK. Cool. I'll honestly say that I would be fully behind AROS if it did get integrated 68K... I think its a really cool project, it just needs more development/support in that area. Allways thought it was quite cheeky that MorphOS got a lot of code from AROS but then never shared any back to AROS... although if they had given the Trace/JIT code away then I suppose that would invalidate MorphOS commercially...

@Speedy

Yup. Sitting watching, waiting, repeat, sitting, watching...

If it happens it happens, if it doesn't then meh. Theres other options...

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@PhantomInterrogative

Well, as "NutsAboutAmiga" pointed out, it as much to do with the hardware I think, as it is todo with the OS. I think the spirit of Amiga is imbued in the OS itself, alot of the magic happens there. However the hardware architecture "contributed" to the efficiency of AmigaOS.

Additionally, nothing beats that "oooohhh" factor when we see programmers hit the hardware like a ton of bricks and seeing technology do what it was never meant to do in the first place. Paula wasn't designed to pump out 14bit sound was it. Yes, trickery is involved... but that was the rush... that is what made you think what more can this computer. Today the demo scene is testament to continually pushing the boundaries of what is possible..

As I stated before a few times in previous posts, if applications like an Office Suite, a 3D game or even 3D platform game (for example) where specifically coded and optimised for an 060 processor, with all the little tricks being used that made us go "wow" so many times, I am positive much could still be done on classic hardware using classic processors like an 060. Undoubtedly, to do the minimum of what a modern computer does today one would need a better base system, but I believe, and 060 with 128mb, together with highly optimised code... most could be achieved like running a decent browser, office suit and even 3D game... maybe without all the fancy post-processing effects... but it could be done...

That is what makes Amiga for me...

Q!

"aLL RoAds LEaD ToO HoMe"

@rigo

Quote:

All this fuss about Amiga chipsets and how great it was is absolutely ridiculous in this day and age, when you consider all that technology has been squashed down to an FPGA now, and modern graphics cards make the AGA chipsets look exectly what they are, something from the 80's.

True, but what graphics card can perform copper effects and allow different framebuffers to slid e down in front of the others in hardware without any blitting? I could say screens acting as sprites. Futhermore, what graphics card has a sub-cpu that can be programmed to modify memory, even inside the graphics card, for every pixel on screen before it is displayed in realtime? Perhaps they do, but Windows does not allow it?

Okay, that sort of thing is out of date now, but I still think what the copper did was pretty cool. It was like extending the idea of sprites to the whole screen where the entire graphic images could be moved about the screen by simply changing some addresses in the vertical blank and having the hardware do the rest.

Even with hardware acceleration, it still writes into the screen AFAIK. But it is the modern thing to just display exactly what is in the frambuffer and prepare it by whatever means.

BTW, you said AGA chipsets, I thought we had just one?

Well, look....

The only way I see Amiga hardware could be impressive is if it came in an impossibly small form factor, perhaps like one of those Asus eepc mini notebooks. You could pretty much forgive its shortcomings if it was that small. Modest memory requirements and processor usage are the hallmarks of the AmigaOS and its applications and would enable it to shine on such a platform.

If a tiny PPC notebook or mini specced desktop(similar to the Mac-mini) or perhaps an all in one wedge, were to materialise we could have a chance. We'd be different and there would be no direct comparison. And there would be a coolness factor.

When you go bigger to a full desktop, you have to compete with the mainstream operating systems. AmigaOS would be compared to the latest and greatest from MS and Apple, and Linux, and not look too great, except to the hardcore enthusiasts.

Love it or loave it we're on PPC now.....and I am sure there a plenty of existing (missed) opportunities there.

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@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote: @rigo Quote: All this fuss about Amiga chipsets and how great it was is absolutely ridiculous in this day and age, when you consider all that technology has been squashed down to an FPGA now, and modern graphics cards make the AGA chipsets look exectly what they are, something from the 80's. True, but what graphics card can perform copper effects and allow different framebuffers to slid e down in front of the others in hardware without any blitting? I could say screens acting as sprites. Futhermore, what graphics card has a sub-cpu that can be programmed to modify memory, even inside the graphics card, for every pixel on screen before it is displayed in realtime? Perhaps they do, but Windows does not allow it?

The MPC5121 DIU can. It has 3D and 2D acceleration, with three 24bit display fields with alpha channel and/or chroma keying support.

I seriously like that SOC

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@Hypex

Quote:

(SNIP) Futhermore, what graphics card has a sub-cpu that can be programmed to modify memory, even inside the graphics card, for every pixel on screen before it is displayed in realtime?

Note why
1. X86 PC platforms need a ("working") cache coherent DMA Northbridge.
2. Pixel Shader.

Modern GPUs are considered to be math co-processors and can modify memory storage areas. As an example, NV CUDA GPU (based on X86 Pathscale C++ compiler) compiles programs for G8x/G9x/GT2xx processor line. CUDA GPU programs are executed on the GPU.

Fold@Home GPU1 executes on DX9 APIs and ATI Radeon R5x0 GPUs.

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@resle
Quote:

Still, the question remains: what IS amiga now?

As of today, the only thing left is the OS.

Generally speaking, for me the Amiga is a custom state-of-the-art (at least, at time of release) HW running AmigaOS (please note that this does NOT mean I have no respect for Amiga-like systems/OSs like MorphOS or AROS).

By this definition, an AmigaONE is NOT an Amiga (it just runs the latest incarnation of the OS, but is no different than a PC mobo with a different processor), but a PS3 could be.

Last edited by Turrican3 on 05-Sep-2008 at 09:55 AM.

@DBAlex

Quote:

Allways thought it was quite cheeky that MorphOS got a lot of code from AROS but then never shared any back to AROS...

Well, not exactly, there are AROS parts in MorphOS and are referenced, as such they fulfill their dues, think OSX on that matter, openBSD gets better even if no code is shared back if not only by the all recognition it gets from being used on OSX, still I think that same are in the process of getting back to AROS from some talks I've heard floating around...

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@Turrican3

Quote:

Turrican3 wrote: @resle Quote: Still, the question remains: what IS amiga now? As of today, the only thing left is the OS. Generally speaking, for me the Amiga is a custom state-of-the-art (at least, at time of release) HW running AmigaOS (please note that this does NOT mean I have no respect for Amiga-like systems/OSs like MorphOS or AROS).

Classic Amiga 1000/500/600/1200 are equipped with a "custom" IGP and unified/shared memory architecture.

Quote:

By this definition, an AmigaONE is NOT an Amiga (it just runs the latest incarnation of the OS, but is no different than a PC mobo with a different processor), but a PS3 could be.

X86 PC platforms needs a competent Northbridge i.e. "working” cache coherent DMA feature. AmigaONE is !@#$ !@#$ compared to AMD's EV6 PC mobos (used in K7 Athlons and it's the same point-to-point bus as DEC's Alpha EV6) .

What special about PS3?

Emmm;
Older Intel X86 uses an older Rambus memory type.
PS3's RSX is a modified nVidia G7x (with 8 ROPS e.g. like Geforce 7600/7700).

Sony PS3
[XDR Memory] -link- [CPU/7SPU+NB+MCH] -link- [GPU+MCH i.e. RSX]-link-[GDDRx Memory]

AMD Puma/780G (with "side-port");
[DDRx Memory] -link- [1/2/4 CPU+NB+MCH] -HT** link- [GpGPU+MCH+nb i.e. RV6x0]-side-port link-[GDDRx Memory].

**Hypertransport is based on Alpha's EV7 point-to-point technology.

XBOX 360
[3CPU] -link- [GpGPU+NB+MCH] -link- [Memory].

Intel GMA(pre-Nehalem)
[1/2/4 CPU] -link - [IGP+NB+MCH] -link-[Memory]

Intel Nehalem
[DDRx Memory] -link- [1/2/4 CPU+MCH+NB] -link - [IGP+nb]

ATI R6x0's command processor is more "custom" than CELL's SPUs ISA i.e. R600’s command processor ISA not part of alliance or supported by multiple companies. SPU’s ISA is supported via STI(Sony, Toshiba, IBM) alliance.

Last edited by Hammer on 05-Sep-2008 at 12:55 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 05-Sep-2008 at 12:54 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 05-Sep-2008 at 12:51 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 05-Sep-2008 at 12:45 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 05-Sep-2008 at 12:38 PM.

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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@DBAlex

Quote:

Allways thought it was quite cheeky that MorphOS got a lot of code from AROS but then never shared any back to AROS...

Uhm, bullsh*t.

Quote:

Although if they had given the Trace/JIT code away then I suppose that would invalidate MorphOS commercially...

Trance is not based on AROS code.

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@Hypex

Quote:

Okay, that sort of thing is out of date now, but I still think what the copper did was pretty cool.

Copper is useless on true colour screens.

Quote:

It was like extending the idea of sprites to the whole screen where the entire graphic images could be moved about the screen by simply changing some addresses in the vertical blank and having the hardware do the rest.

Using sprites in multitasking system is difficult.

Quote:

Even with hardware acceleration, it still writes into the screen AFAIK. But it is the modern thing to just display exactly what is in the frambuffer and prepare it by whatever means.

Amiga blitter was good for some operations but many programmers ignored it because it was too slow and it was better use CPU instead. Nothing new there.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@tomazkid

Quote:

tomazkid wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga Quote: The point is that Amiga hardware was never that grate, yes there was a short period in 198x whit Amiga1000, Amiga500, when Amiga was untouchable. Well, if Mac now was so superior, how come the fastest 68k Mac you could get was an Amiga running ShapeShifter

Yes but hats was a heavily upgraded Amiga4000 whit a 060 CPU, and SCSI, and cyber graphic addon, a classic A1200 whit AGA, no upgrades where parity slow.

Macintosh dropped the 060 for PowerPC 601 @ 50mhz it was bit slower at emulating Mac programs but it did beat the heck out of 040 mac’s anyway, the first Power Mac series where horror because it head to emulate 680x0 MacOS7.5.x, well stuff improved whit MacOS7.6.x, and MacOS8.x, MacOS9 was pure PowerPC, but then they decided it was time to drop it too many problems, MacOSX was born.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Sep-2008 at 04:11 PM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Classic Amiga 1000/500/600/1200 are equipped with a "custom" IGP and unified/shared memory architecture.

Well many of 680x0 CPU’s contained a MMU, private memory, virtual memory; swap memory it was all possible on a Classic Amiga, AmigaOS did not support any of this, MacOS7.5.x has virtual memory and it’s also based on 680x0 series of CPU’s.

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