@ReverseGTR

Quote:

Speaking of which, can you disclose any part of the business plan involving for future versions or what will be expanded on support wise for future OS4 releases?

If there is anything to disclose, it will be done by Hyperion not myself.

Quote:

In other words, are there any such plans you overheard while last time working with Hyperion Entertainment that hints to any further or updated support with Java and Flash among others?

While I could see a certain connection between the OS and Java, I fail to see that for Flash. I also do not see why you write Hyperion Entertainment in italics.

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@matthey

BTW this is anything but personal, even he already confirmed he doesn´t want to make the port because he would HATE to.

I have nothing at all against Rogue and I said "thank you" many times to him and all the OS4 devs team in forums for all his wonderful work and open attitude (even sometimes he is a bit hard at discussions), so don´t try to argue that becuase it is kind of low.

@Rogue

Ok, if that's all you can say about the problems of the port, I must thank you for confirm my theory that the port is easy. You did ports for other devices just for "evaluation" purposes in the past, but... never ever try the most successful ppc computer to see how OS4 performs on it? specially in our situation? that sounds really weird...

I didn´t say also that the fact you don´t want to is the only reason, but having a bussines plan that goes out of the question, doesn't deny it anyway, it is just a consequence.

Last edited by vision on 20-Oct-2008 at 12:06 PM.

@vision

Quote:

he already confirmed he doesn´t want to make the port because he would HATE to.

Where did I say I would HATE to? I in fact said that my wishes are irrelevant. I do not have an opinion on a Mac port, I think however it won't make much sense since people with an Apple OS want Apple stuff on their Apple hardware, I strongly doubt that this would be as good a seller as everybody wants to make believe.

Quote:

Ok, if that's all you can say about the problems of the port, I must thank you for confirm my theory that the port is easy

Sorry to disappoint you, but I have confirmed nothing. A port is easy IF and ONLY IF you have documentation on the platform. Otherwise, it may become quite difficult. The usual thing is to say "look at the Linux source", but heck, no one wants to browse tons of source code to find the answer to a problem, more so since the problem might be solved differently on Linux.

Quote:

You did ports for other devices just for "evaluation" purposes in the past, but...

If that refers to the eLAP, then yes, but that was paid work. Other than that, we never did port it to anything that hasn't been planned as a release target.

Quote:

never ever try the most successful ppc computer to see how OS4 performs on it? specially in our situation? that sounds really weird...

Why would I? I know how it would perform. About as well as on my AmigaOne with 7447 1.1 Ghz. But you did not pay attention anyway:

"easy" does not mean it won't take any time. To port to a different platform is about a month worth of work. Besides the kernel adaption, there are things like onboard hardware support (ide and network for example). That means getting one of the devices to someone that can do that. This means at least three people working on it.

You also do not seem to have any idea how much that would cost.

Bottom line is, you don't "just" port things to another platform, and you don't do it if you do not have adequate documentation. It just doesn't work.

Quote:

I didn´t say also that the fact you don´t want to is the only reason, but having a bussines plan that goes out of the question, doesn't deny it anyway, it is just a consequence.

Well I am not even sure whether I understand what you are saying, but what I wanted to say is that there is a plan for the immediate and mid-term future that leaves little to no room for "excursions" into other areas. It means that for the next several months, we do have very specific plans on how to spend the work time, and Mac hardware is not part of it.

Last edited by Rogue on 20-Oct-2008 at 01:09 PM.

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@Rogue

Quote:

Where did I say I would HATE to? I in fact said that my wishes are irrelevant. I do not have an opinion on a Mac port, I think however it won't make much sense since people with an Apple OS want Apple stuff on their Apple hardware, I strongly doubt that this would be as good a seller as everybody wants to make believe.

Sorry if my poor english did confuse you. I was speaking in *conditional* case. An explanation to Mathey that says that even *IF* you said clearly you hate to do it, I would not have anything against you.

I don´t think also it would atract mac customers to Amiga, but Amiga customers to hardware: YES! and A LOT.

Many people in our community is very tired of poor harware that is just right at minor tasks for 3 or 4 years, ¿what hardware have we to make serious 3D? ¿non linear HD video editing? ¿professional music? ¿up-to-date realtime graphics? (to make possible good games on amiga, and I am not speaking about expensive developments, there are hundreds of great games out there for free or developed by small teams or individuals that would love to port them to Amiga if there was hard that could run them).

I bet you there are THOUSANDS of Amigans that would buy some of the hundreds of thousands of powerful macs avaliables out there (and that could be sold by Amiga shops), but are not attracted by the pathetic available options.

And regarding the bussines plan, I meant: the responsible at Hyperion made that bussines plan because he knows you don´t like to make a mac port, so he made it that way. If a port was seriously considered, it would be a B. plan that included it. It is as simple as that.

Last edited by vision on 20-Oct-2008 at 04:33 PM.

@vision
This thinking is wrong (in my opinion). We have to support hardware developers to produce new and better hardware, and not to buy abandoned second hand Apple hardware.

But, software is issue here, and I will repeat it 100 times.

We need browser and office suite here. I don't know how OS these days can even be sold without up to date internet browser? Today when computing is web?

You can say that it takes money, effort or bla, bla... but the FACT is that we can't persuade anybody to use OS in serious way beside fey hundreds (nostagic) men on Earth without those apps.... Sorry to say this but it is the truth.

Company which made OS must ensure that necessary apps for it exist on market (if they want serious market share).

Remember Commodore? If they weren't third party companies who made addons for Amigas, Amiga would have gone bust sooner...

But if they coordinated such activities, maybe everything would be different today....

@Rogue

Quote:

people with an Apple OS want Apple stuff on their Apple hardware

The point of a Mac Mini port is allowing amigans have access to cheap and powerful (compared to Sam440/A1) hardware, not converting Mac users into Amiga users. That is hardly possible, but there are more chances of people giving a go at AmigaOS4 for 110Euros (using their existing hardware) than people giving it a go for 700Euros (buying exclusive hardware that is so slow for other OSes that it can only run OS4).

Target users of a Mac port:
-Examiga users with good memories about AmigaOS.
-Current amiga users who want a cheap ppc platform

Current situation:
-Examiga users don't want to invest a huge pile of money just "to try it out". What happens if they can't do everything they wanted? With a more powerful computer they can run other OSes so at least their wife don't tell them they are stupid because they have wasted all their money in a toy that doesn't allow browsing webpages neither doing the annual tax payment. It's easier to justify spending 110Euros in an OS (that you may use more or less) than justifying spending 700Euros in a full computer that only runs OS4 decently (and linux slowly, but any PC taken from the trashcan will do that better, it's a pity that not everyone has physical space for having multiple computers)
-Current amiga users prefer to use their computers while these work, use WinUAE or prefer to wait for a solution with a reasonable price/performance relationship that allows them to run other OSes at decent speed because it's quite clear that AmigaOS family of OSes won't allow them to perform everything that is supposed to be done on a modern computer. So most of classic users prefer to buy a shiny laptop and run UAE (sometimes due to space constrains rather than buying expensive and underpowered OS4-boxes)
-A few faithful people has bought everything released with Amiga Inc blessing regardless of the quality of the product just because it runs AmigaOS4. It's a very good reason in fact. But sadly it won't help to "convert" the rest of users (including amiga users). It will just work with already converted users. You'll see that some people even have various OS4 compatible hardware, so the number of users is lower than the number of OS4 units sold.

Your Apple argument sounds like "We will create a custom obscure and expensive platform so the people interested in using it will have to spend 700Euros instead of 100Euros. That way we'll have 1 legal user instead of 7 legal users (and 3 pirates that never use it but feel joy collecting stuff), it's a clever way to expand the number of users!

A full Mac Mini costs half the price of a full new Sam440 or A1 and it's also faster.

Please, don't use strange parallel-world theories where embedded cache less 603e are faster than G4/1.4Ghz using Altivec.

Last edited by Crumb on 20-Oct-2008 at 03:42 PM.
Last edited by Crumb on 20-Oct-2008 at 03:28 PM.

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@vision

If you can find a guaranteed steady supply of the specific model of Mac Mini that the Moana project was being developed for, then you would probably be better off talking to Nicola Morocutti of Virtual Works about the possibility of OS4.x on Mac hardware.

@amigappc

Well, the fact is that most of people is interested in the OS and not in custom hardware with no advantages.

AmigaOS4 developers should produce software for available hardware and focus in selling the maximum amount of units and increasing their OS user base, instead of trying to find excuses to sell us a 500Euro dongle.

I call it dongle because it's underpowered and any x86 motherboard from the trashcan is faster and more powerful. E.g.: I found an AthlonXP 1800 in the trashcan that runs rings around A1/Sam440/Pegasos/Efika in terms of number crunching capabilities.

As David Haynie wrote some years ago, ATM AmigaOS4 requires the user to invest a huge pile of money just to boot into WB. And then you'll want to make something.

If you reduce the amount of money required to boot WB to just the cost of the software (with an USB dongle if you are paranoid) you'll be able to increase the number of possible users in an arithmetic way. And perhaps they even have saved some money more to buy AmigaOS4 software and that will help OS4 serious software to be developed. ATM after the economic effort you have to do to boot OS4, you probably won't be able to buy a lot of software.

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@Hans

Quote:

I haven't had a really good look at prices yet. Usually I look at what the best one is in my price range (i.e., when I have the money).

just so we are on the same page would this work for you?

I have one of these and its great. They go on sale at Frys for $139 all the time.

===================

Side point

found this deal for the latest AMD chipsets. Know this model is for PCI express so it wouldn't be worth buying for your testing would it? If a PCI version of this AMD GPU is available would you be interested?

What interests me is that these GPU's have built in features to use the Blu ray & HD codics, among other features.

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@Interesting

Quote:

Interesting wrote: @Hans Quote: I haven't had a really good look at prices yet. Usually I look at what the best one is in my price range (i.e., when I have the money). just so we are on the same page would this work for you? I have one of these and its great. They go on sale at Frys for $139 all the time. =================== Side point found this deal for the latest AMD chipsets. Know this model is for PCI express so it wouldn't be worth buying for your testing would it? If a PCI version of this AMD GPU is available would you be interested? What interests me is that these GPU's have built in features to use the Blu ray & HD codics, among other features.

I'll answer everything at once, because they're related. Yes, I'm interested in graphics cards that are better than the ones that I have. Basically, if anyone makes a PCI version, I can use it. Of course, I have more than enough cards right now, so it would be a low priority.

As for the monitor, I could go for something like the one that you linked to. However, if I can convince AMD to give me the docs for the HD video decoding, HDCP, etc. that is necessary for Blu-ray, it would make sense to get a monitor with HDCP. I guess that I could use the price on that monitor as a baseline (i.e., the minimum that I'd need) and have a look at what I can afford when I actually go out to buy one.

Hans

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@vision

Quote:

Many people in our community is very tired of poor harware that is just right at minor tasks for 3 or 4 years,

Beg your pardon, but it isn't like Mac PPC hardware is the top notch. It was not developed from quite a while, and will no more be developed in the future.

Plainly, everybody is always complaining. If there is hardware (AmigaOne) they complain about the prices and declare they will wait until the prices come down. When the hardware is off the market then, the complain that there is no hardware. If new hardware arrives, they complain about the prices again and/or about the performance.

You think there is any way that all are happy? I don't.

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to make possible good games on amiga, and I am not speaking about expensive developments, there are hundreds of great games out there for free or developed by small teams or individuals that would love to port them to Amiga if there was hard that could run them

Right. They're all just waiting for an additional several thousand users.

I propose you take a look at any news item that has "Amiga" in it on mainstream web sites. Hell, slashdot even attaches the tag "dead horse" by default.

Quote:

I bet you there are THOUSANDS of Amigans that would buy some of the hundreds of thousands of powerful macs avaliables out there (and that could be sold by Amiga shops), but are not attracted by the pathetic available options.

Unfortunately, there is no point in betting. And apologize if I don't want to bet on that, after all it is more than just a bit of money that would be at stake.

Besides, as I pointed out, there is a plan on what is going to happen, and since you don't know it, what makes you think that you know better? I mean, just imagine we'd be doing a port to the Quad-Core PPC hardware that was mentioned in the subject, what makes you think that going for Mac hardware would be the better choice? Or, if there is a customer for an embedded target wanting to buy several million of SAM boards with AmigaOS 4, then why do you think we should try to go for even several thousand?

Now, I am not saying either of these is true, but I am trying to say that you do not know what is going on and therefore we are in a better position to judge. And since we are, we currently have ruled out a Mac port (as well as PS 3).

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@Crumb

Quote:

Please, don't use strange parallel-world theories where embedded cache less 603e are faster than G4/1.4Ghz using Altivec.

If you can't argue your case like an adult, don't even try it. I have never claimed such nonsense, as you should well known. I am not an idiot, no matter how hard you try to prove otherwise. If you read my postings about the SAM vs. AmigaOne, you will see that I explained very precisely what to expect from the SAM speed-wise, so please don't talk rubbish like that.

I can only repeat what I have said in my last posting. You don't know squad. So why do you think you are in a better position to judge than me, or someone at Hyperion?

I have pointed out multiple times there will be no Mac port, period. Live with it, I don't care. That is all I am going to say about the topic.

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@Rogue

Quote:

I have pointed out multiple times there will be no Mac port, period. Live with it, I don't care. That is all I am going to say about the topic.

Geez, It's like these jokers never listen, you know what I mean.

So, is now a good time to bring up the x86 port? So I have some ideas for you....


Ha ha! Just a little joke. See, there it goes, flying out the window....

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@Rogue

Even the mac hardware isn´t the fatests of the machines out there, they really perform a million times better than current Amiga ones, so try to guess the shame we feel, but you defend...

And don´t make me put here a loooong list of interesting and resource-hungry games with avaliable source code just to prove there is a lot fo interesting games we are missing because the lack of decent hard. Are you trying to change the point? Our problem is not the lack of people (it is also, but not for this matter), but the lack of hardware: who comes first??? a computer, or the users and customers for it??
why I feel it is ridiculous having to ask those questions (with OBVIOUS answers) to someone suposedly as smart as you???

If your point was that with modern hardware is no interesting thing enough to attract new customers and big companies, I will tell you that even that theory is wrong, and I know it because of a experience that proves the contrary: The GP32.

The GP32 came out from NOTHING. No one knew it before, it was produced by such a small company that its production figures were as small as the ones at Amiga companies, but the hardware was so good that it got a very loyal fan base step by step. So active (either developing or in forums/websites) that it got the attraction of some big companies, like ATARI. The story of why they didn´t got the rights from the Koreans to release the games planned, has probably more to do with the stupid things they do at bussines, but the important thing is that the chance was there, and a lot more would be for an interesting Amiga machine (because of the name and the instant covering that many sites still make of Amiga products like OS4 )

If you still don´t believe it, there is another proof of what I'm saying that will be even a lot bigger: PANDORA. Similar case but clearer.

Very small company, no name, no resources, no supports but some customers of gp handhelds, and already A LOT of covering and attention from main websites, even before the first unit is produced. How can you explain that?? Can you guess the difference with Amiga companies? I could say many of them, but for being polite I will just say: SPIRIT and BALLS.

Keep this message and remember in following months what it says, because I predict the Pandora will be a HUGE SUCCESS that will surpass the Amiga userbase and covering by maybe x10 factor, in maybe less than 1 year, with less resources and possibilities. Another bleeding case that we should learn from, but we wont...

Anyway, the mac thing I was insisting, is of course *just in case* we cannot produce equal or better hardware (even it is a bit more expensive) that sadly is the case we are in now; BUT, if you are SURE we will be soon in a new scenario that will put on the market (I repeat: for sure, not just "plans") some new and up to date machine/s then you can keep sure the "mac supporters" will be a lot happier and support it like their girlfriends. I hope it has some real base and your words were not a sneaky way to leave out the question.

Last edited by vision on 20-Oct-2008 at 07:39 PM.
Last edited by vision on 20-Oct-2008 at 07:37 PM.

@Rogue

That comment was added because I remember that when microA1 was released there were some claims like "Altivec is almost useless and a 750GX is faster than a G4".

Anyway apart from that joke-comment the rest of my post was more or less serious.

BTW, despiting all my sarcastic comments I have never tried to make you look like an idiot and I think that in fact you are a nice "gentle man" (or a gentle ogre when people like me makes you angry ). I have a high opinion of you. You also have a lot of patience for replying. I didn't want to make you angry, sorry

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@vision

Quote:

I predict the Pandora will be a HUGE SUCCESS that will surpass the Amiga userbase and covering by maybe x10 factor, in maybe less than 1 year, with less resources and possibilities. Another bleeding case that we should learn from, but we wont...

that would make mmm 10,000 Pandora users?

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@vision

If you feel a MAC port is such a good idea you should contact Hyperion in a more formal way and tell them about how you will be able to finance it. I'm sure if YOU put YOUR money where your mouth is a deal could be made.

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@Rogue

Quote:

Besides, as I pointed out, there is a plan on what is going to happen, and since you don't know it, what makes you think that you know better?

Trusting previous Amiga/AmigaOS owning companies to know better did not work out all that well in past either, did it?

So it's not surprising that some think so as it happened to be the case so many times in the past that they or the Amiga users in general infact knew better.

Oh please come on you ungrateful bunch of negative freaks, and stop your whining. All thing Amiga could just as well be totally dead, and you also know the recent history about Eyetech folding, and the A1 running out of stock. NOW WE HAVE NEW HARDWARE AGAIN, and even if its not the fastest machine in the world, it surely is DARN GOOD ENOUGH if it keeps the amiga market going a bit further on the way to modern hardware. So stop harassing Rogue, who clearly only wants whats best for AmigaOS, by using the limited amount of money on a secure path for OS4xx

If you can afford it, then shut up and go buy a SAM board and AmigaOS4.1 - and let the fun begin, and leave the bickering for a while. Who knows whats coming next time OS4 gets "rewritten".

Rogue I think you're cool, to stay well mannered despite these morons complaining about a totally cool thing for the Amiga..........THE SAM BOARD!!!!!!!!!

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@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote: If there is anything to disclose, it will be done by Hyperion not myself. [/qupte] And I understand, will any news just be ported [quote]While I could see a certain connection between the OS and Java, I fail to see that for Flash. I also do not see why you write Hyperion Entertainment in italics.

Even though Flash does not have a compiler a virtual machine and a additional libraries or whatever else of JRE added to the OS; it is still a popular plug-in for websites and program menus. Which would not only help make OS4 more usable on a daily basis but also help the creation of more applications.

If it is alright I will pull a quote from someone that states it best:
Quote:

amigappc wrote: Company which made OS must ensure that necessary apps for it exist on market

Now I can sympethize that some major factors which are an obstacle to Hyperion Entertainment continued support for OS4 and most of us find it quite amazing that the 4.1 update as well as SAM440 is available to anyone choosing to buy now. But as a relatively closed-source OS a contractual agreement has to be made with Hyperion Entertainment, and other parties involved in order to official port it to new hardware; don't any critical updates for OS4 apply too? So we need a sign that development for OS4 by all parties involved with Hyperion Entertainment is still progressing and since you are the closest to them among anyone I know of who replies here we all naturally look to you. Despite this being a semi-official forum for OS4 all of us know that it is not the only one dishing out an AmigaOS experience. If given enough developer attention, all of them in time will catch up to OS4.1.

As for why I am using italics on certain nouns, I do it to signify that they are important factors in my reply and to variate the font a bit to make it easier on the eyes within large paragraphs.

Last edited by ReverseGTR on 20-Oct-2008 at 10:37 PM.
Last edited by ReverseGTR on 20-Oct-2008 at 10:24 PM.