@Darrin

A musical straingt from Jeff Wayne's album would be good too.

A little company called Pendragon did a movie from the novel, but you don't want to see it. The special effects left something to be desired - like special effects, for instance.

And don't get me started about the acting, if you can call it that. Surely they could have found at least one person who could fo a real English accent ...

Apparently, this year, the BBC is remaking The Day of the Triffids. Hopefully that'll follow the novel.

@all
Science fiction, double feature

Edit: This one is much more ilustrative
Sciencie fiction, doble feature alternative

Last edited by xispo on 11-Apr-2009 at 12:57 PM.

Can people please move SF movie discussions to another thread, as it's OFF TOPIC (as much as I love Forbidden Planet & SF in general).

Thanks in advance (I hope).

Last edited by ChrisH on 11-Apr-2009 at 02:16 PM.

_________________
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@tomazkid Quote:

Just a guess: Virtualization.

How do you mean? (More details please)

_________________
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@ChrisH

Java for AmigaOS would be an ambitious project

@Trev Quote:

A new kernel API would be cool, but, ummm, it wouldn't really be Amiga OS anymore. (snip) Isn't that the opposite of what the OS4 camp wants?

Ignoring your snarky remark (you'd be more at home on the Moo Bunny), I think it *could* be perfectly fine, but it depends on how they do it (if they are doing it).

Clearly OS4's design cannot get many modern things (full memory protection, multi-core support, 64-bit address space, endian independance, and even easy virtual memory support) as it stands, so *if* we want those (some clearly do, and I certainly would not object) then it means some radical changes to the API.

The bigger the changes, the more subjective it is whether a new API is "Amiga like", since there is no abstract definition of what "Amiga like" means. But in the end, perhaps the precise form doesn't matter too much (as long as it isn't bloated & slow & unresponsive), if software running on Hyperion's new kernel LOOKS and BEHAVES exactly like current OS4 software. Particularly if we can also run the old software too, with only a little extra overhead.

Remember that, as Terry Pratchett has said, people have trouble with "becomings" (things changing from one thing to another). If the change is sudden (say replacing every part of an old chair with new material) then they won't tend to accept it as being the same thing. BUT if the change is gradual (say replacing a bit of an old chair every few decades with new material), then they will tend to accept that it is the same thing, even if the end result is the same (none of the original chair remains). Thus if Hyperion choose to change the OS's interface (APIs), but keep the basic implementation & appearance the same, then the changes may be small enough for people to accept that it is still essentially OS4.

While Anubis may be attempting something similar (new Amiga-like APIs), they are (almost) starting from scratch, and most likely the resulting OS will look quite different to any Amiga we know, and will NOT run most of the Amiga/AROS apps we know. Swallowing that pill may be rather harder, although maybe they can manage to surprise me...


edit: I also wonder if OS4's seriously underused Library Interface system will play any part in this... Would it be possible for apps running on the old kernel to still access the new APIs, by selecting an alternative Library Interface? That would allow gradual migration of old apps to the new API, before finally recompiling them for the new kernel. It could certainly be possible, if the plan is for some of the APIs used by the old kernel to simply remap them onto the new kernel APIs (thus 'emulating' the old APIs).

Last edited by ChrisH on 11-Apr-2009 at 03:00 PM.

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@tomazkid

Quote:

tomazkid wrote: @ChrisH Quote: "Hyperion Entertainment ... embarks on its most ambitious project to date". Just a guess: Virtualization.

It should be obvious by now: AmigaOS4-x86

@COBRA
x86 has already been ruled out (not sure if you were joking, but I don't want this thread derailed by people taking your comment at face value).

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They'll create a driver for the SCSI2 controler on BlizzardPPCs and realease a new version for the Classic.

Seriously, could be a PS3 port, that would rule.

_________________

José

@Hans

Quote:

Virtualization is a possibility, as-is adding full memory-protection, and/or multi-processing capability. In all of the above virtualization would likely be needed for legacy apps.

I wish to see graphics used to the full. How about a port or rewrite of the ATI Catalyst drivers? Getting to use all the power and features of the GPU's would be a real blessing.

It also would be a major project.

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@thread

Of course, it might have nothing to do with AmigaOS at all...

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MindSpace: MindMaps and UML diagrams for OS4

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Regarding HyperionMP's comment on the new/current ambitious project:
@Stephen_Robinson
Quote:

I wonder what he meant by "it's not a port to x86, that would not be "ambitious"."

This thread has many fine suggestions for OS4 improvements, but the one that matters
is improvement in sales. OS4 must attempt to make a good profit to support itself---
breaking a little better than even won't do. Two or three orders of magnitude more
sales. An "ambitious" project would port it to an embedded or portable device that is
not already saturated with solutions. Time is of the essence, and a large, durable
hardware partner is in order.

I have no idea what device: "cartop box," "portable distance learning immersion
station?" Probably something where responsiveness and UI are important. Forget
TiVO clone or gaming system---and I don't know how fast the cellphone OS window
is closing. It absolutely can't be an old desktop or laptop computer. You just couldn't
sell enough of 'em.

Some of the proposed OS upgrades may be needed to make the "ambitious" project
work, but the target device is what matters, not the specific features.

Quote:

Not ambitious enough, or just corporate suicide!?

As much as I would like to see OS4 magically work on my AMD64 x2, magically
running existing OS4 and 68K SW unchanged, bug free and seamless, by, uh,
later this evening...

I don't think x86 or other CPU matters. The application category or device is the
thing. The desktop may become important again when independent developers
are needed for the "ambitious" product, or for docking or whatever. I would hope
and expect that desktop OS4 would not suffer too much from the success of
"Ambitious." If things went well enough, maybe there would be resources for
additional platform ports (?).

@ChrisH

Quote:

Ignoring your snarky remark (you'd be more at home on the Moo Bunny), I think it *could* be perfectly fine, but it depends on how they do it (if they are doing it).

I could have said, "Isn't that the opposite of what Hyperion's customers want," but since this a friendly forum full of hearsay and supposition, I went for the other.

I agree re: behavior (users won't care how it runs as long as it feels the same), but you can also fundamentally change the kernel and make multiple APIs available. I hate to keep bringing up Windows, but since it's done all of this before (both with and without the help of other vendors): Win32 and POSIX on the NT kernel, NTVDM on NT/i386, FX!32 on NT/Alpha, etc. Apple did it with Mac OS X, and really, it's the core of how most operating systems work, separating the kernel from the operating environment.

Ultimately, we need a migration path that satisfies both users and developers. The hardware argument is only an argument because the platforms Hyperion has chosen don't do anything that a cheaper, more plentiful x86-based platform already does better. In effect, AmigaOS 4's value proposition just isn't making its case.

I would buy into hardware tying if both the hardware platform and the operating system offered something compelling enough to warrant a switch. Apple has done this quite well, despite the fact that they now use commodity hardware.

Amiga and Commodore were moving the right direction. Everything in the system was abstract. From a user's perspective, volatile (memory) and non-volatile (disk) storage were essentially the same thing. The system was data-centric--what the user created--and therefore user-centric. Computers have quite systematically gone from what you can create (essentially, the Amiga/Atari/Apple way) to what you can do (the IBM/Microsoft way), with the focus on the work, rather than the result. Hence, applications and not data get the spotlight. The current incarnation of AmigaOS has more in common with Windows than it does with its creative forebears. Why is that? Really. Think about it.

_________________
Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2
borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603

@Trev

"Amiga and Commodore were moving the right direction. (...). The current incarnation of AmigaOS has more in common with Windows than it does with its creative forebears."

I believe you must be one of the only persons ever to claim that Commodore was moving in the right direction.

I would also like to point out that AmigaOS 4.1 is based on the AmigaOS 3.x source-code. Any suggestion that AmigaOS 4.x has more in common with Windows than it does with is creative forebears betrays a very deep lack of understanding in what AmigaOS 4.1 is.

_________________

@Hyperionmp

I was referring to how a computer is perceived by its user, which I tried to explain, albeit not very well. You've understood my point, though: as a user, I have no clear understanding of what AmigaOS 4 is trying to be. What does it offer that AmigaOS 3.x does not? What does it offer that Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, et al do not?

In my opinion, the original Amiga was about changing the way users looked at computers. They weren't just terminals on a bank counter, mysterious cabinets in underground bunkers, or toys for the children on Christmas Day. Many of the ideas brought to the personal computer by the original designers and engineers are only now finding their way into the mainstream.

(Brief aside: "Tiny Dancer" is playing downstairs. That was my Amiga 500. She knew the words and hummed the tune. Even a cynic can see beyond the code and silicon.)

Apple--marketing rhetoric aside--has never lost sight of that. Quite rightly, they filled the gap left by Commodore and all subsequent owners of the Amiga brand by selling a product that spoke to the creative needs of the user.

To mean something to me as a user--I can't speak for anyone else--AmigaOS must represent something emergent, something more than the sum of its parts. To mean something to me a developer, AmigaOS must evolve.

(Second brief aside: "Ziggy Stardust" is playing downstairs. Nothing profound to say here. Bowie just kicks ass.)

Thanks for listening. Now go make us a better mousetrap.

Last edited by Trev on 12-Apr-2009 at 12:18 AM.
Last edited by Trev on 12-Apr-2009 at 12:17 AM.

_________________
Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2
borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603

@Trev

Quote:

Trev wrote: @Hyperionmp I was referring to how a computer is perceived by its user, which I tried to explain, albeit not very well. You've understood my point, though: as a user, I have no clear understanding of what AmigaOS 4 is trying to be. What does it offer that AmigaOS 3.x does not? What does it offer that Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, et al do not?

One of the reasons for this confusion may be the fact that you are not an Amiga OS 4.x user. Most of the things that Amiga could do that no other OS could do can now be done by all OSes. Exactly what else do you expect Amiga OS to be able to do? It's definitely built upon Amiga OS 3.x, and a huge improvement too.

Quote:

To mean something to me as a user--I can't speak for anyone else--AmigaOS must represent something emergent, something more than the sum of its parts. To mean something to me a developer, AmigaOS must evolve.

It is evolving.

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@Interesting

Quote:

Interesting wrote: @Hans Quote: Virtualization is a possibility, as-is adding full memory-protection, and/or multi-processing capability. In all of the above virtualization would likely be needed for legacy apps. I wish to see graphics used to the full. How about a port or rewrite of the ATI Catalyst drivers? Getting to use all the power and features of the GPU's would be a real blessing.

AMD's developer relations program doesn't even want to talk to me about functionality that's noe available in the open documentation, so there's no chance that they'll even consider giving anyone access to the Catalyst code. As for using the GPU functionality, we'll get there eventually.

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@Hans

Quote:

One of the reasons for this confusion may be the fact that you are not an Amiga OS 4.x user.

That's probably true.

Quote:

Exactly what else do you expect Amiga OS to be able to do?

Like the original Kickstart/Workbench, I expect it do things that other contemporary consumer operating systems do not. My favorite idea at the moment is doing away with traditional filing systems. Instead, treat non-volatile storage as "memory" and main system memory as board-level cache. This obviously happens to some extent now, but it would do away with the translation between virtual address space and file system and become an all-encompassing abstraction for storage. I know it can't truly be all-encompassing, but there's no reason, for example, why an optical disc with a UDF file system couldn't be treated as a single data object based on its content, assuming it's DVD-Video or something similar. The new abstraction would of course need a way of maintaining portability across traditional file systems, like attribute files or forks/streams. Anyway, that's just one silly idea.

(EDIT: Wow. That reads like non-technical fanboy wannabe speak. Oh well.)

If the stated goal of the project is "AmigaOS 3.9--only better!" so be it. In the meantime, I've pre-ordered a new GVP 68030 accelerator for my spare A1200. I will eventually buy AmigaOS 4, perhaps when the successor to the 440EP-based boards is available--assuming there is one. Perhaps I shouldn't take the chance and just buy a SAM440ep-flex.

Last edited by Trev on 12-Apr-2009 at 01:44 AM.
Last edited by Trev on 12-Apr-2009 at 01:36 AM.

_________________
Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2
borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603

@Hans

Just a thought, but perhaps it could be worthwhile to contact the author of The Omega Drivers?

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@tomazkid

Quote:

tomazkid wrote: @Hans Just a thought, but perhaps it could be worthwhile to contact the author of The Omega Drivers?

My understanding is that the Omega drivers are just the Catalyst drivers with hacked configuration files and installer so that updated drivers can be installed on systems (such as my laptop) even though the manufacturer (Acer) is too lazy to create their own updates.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.