@Zylesea

Quote:

Zylesea wrote: That's a hammer: http://bigfoot.morphos-team.net/test/powermacg5_showconfig.jpeg

Nice!

Would love to see a release on this beast: more memory, faster cpu, more cache, higher bus speeds, higher cpu frequency....

Where's the bad?


@Thread
Anyway, sorry to go on topic there, you can get back to your iterative endless disagreements about development paths now.

_________________
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@Kronos

MorphOS for G5 mac is as much blue topic as AmigaOS for AmigaOne X1000. Both are not actually available to the public, meaning this topic shall be in the general hardware discussion and neither blue, neither red.

Quote:

OS4 is just as HW-locked as MorphOS, just by different means. OS4-users can reuse one Peg2 install on another, just like some MorphOS-user could excahnge their Peg1 with another Peg1...

Wrong. When I bough my micro AmigaOne I received AmigaOS 4 bundled with it. Later I bought AmigaOS 4.1 SEPARATELY. If I had purchased spare microAmigaOne for just in case my machine breaks, I would still buy one AmigaOS 4.1 copy. No need for two. If you love, like Opi to buy three G5 machines, you have to buy three MorphOS licenses SEPARATELY. With AmigaOS 4 you don't have this problem.

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Games, programs, reviews

@drHirudo

Quote:

drHirudo wrote: @Kronos No need for two. If you love, like Opi to buy three G5 machines, you have to buy three MorphOS licenses SEPARATELY. With AmigaOS 4 you don't have this problem.

Assuming that you want to operate the machines simultaneously (rather than having a stock of spares), then yes you do, according to the license agreement. Correct me if I'm wrong, but OS4 can only be installed on one machine at one time as per the license agreement.

The two OSes have different charging models:

OS4 charges for major updates (4.x releases, not 4.n update x releases), but not individual hardware locked (can move installation between same-model machines).

MorphOS does not charge for major updates (2.x releases), but is individual hardware locked (cannot move installation between same-model machines*).

Both OSes charge for moving between non-similar hardware platforms (ie Pegasos OS4.x release will not install on SAM - you must buy an additional hardware-dedicated version).

* Although in the case of 'dead hardware' MorphOS team will allow the license to be changed for free, upon demonstrating to their satisfaction that the original machine is 'dead'.

EDIT: Clarification

Last edited by Boot_WB on 26-Jul-2010 at 12:41 PM.
Last edited by Boot_WB on 26-Jul-2010 at 12:40 PM.

_________________
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opp., the vast majority who voted silently with their feet.

@drHirudo

>MorphOS for G5 mac is as much blue topic as AmigaOS for AmigaOne X1000.
>Both are not actually available to the public, meaning this topic shall be in the
> general hardware discussion and neither blue, neither red.

If "MorphOS on G5" isn't a blue thread than I don't know what would be ....

And this was offcourse just mentioned to point out some double-standards being applied by some people ....

> If you love, like Opi to buy three G5 machines, you have to buy three
>MorphOS licenses SEPARATELY. With AmigaOS 4 you don't have this problem.

Cos with OS4 (+X1000) you've allready spend the budget sufficient for 3 G5s (+MorphOS) on 1 machine

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@drHirudo

Don't buy a machine that havn't been officially said to be supported.
Bying a machine on hearsay or some info not officially printed on MorphOS teams website is your own "lottery ticket"...

The machine you bought probably never get any support from the MorphOS Team (that I judge by the data I saw from your site on the gfx-chipset).

Another issue with laptops is that they are not as durable as normal computers, they wear out quicker. The good thing with a common machine as Apple is that there is still plenty of new parts and repair centers that fix the old stagnated models since there is millions of them around and this is not something that will dissappear over a night.

@Zylesea

Quote:

MorphOS on the fastest ppc consumer computer ever!

Some corrections:
This Power Mac has only 970FX CPU. 970MP in the last Power Mac G5 generation is faster (even on lower clock speed) in most tasks (and there is configuration with 2 CPUs = 4 cores...).

970FX is more power efficient developement of original 970 using a 90 nm manufacturing process. 970MP has bigger L2 cache per core (1 MB).
We can compare their SPEC CPU2000 results:

970 2200 MHz (in IBM eServer BladeCenter JS20)
SpecInt2000 - 1040 (... 1276 at 2700 MHz)
SpecFp2000 - 1241 (... 1523 at 2700 MHz)

970MP 2500 MHz (IBM BladeCenter JS21)
SpecInt2000 - 1587
SpecFp2000 - 2119


PA6T 2000 MHz could score (according to PA Semi) more than 1000 SpecInt2000 and 1500-2000 SpecFp2000 (... 900, respective 1350-1800 at 1800 MHz).

Taking into account that this PowerMac can´t use PCIe GFX cards, I wouldn´t call it "fastest ppc consumer computer ever". Yes, it is fast computer with nice price (if you can find it somewhere). However, there are other - less loud and less power demanding - alternatives with nearly the same (or even better) performance...

Last edited by pavlor on 26-Jul-2010 at 12:46 PM.

@opi
on used HW: do you realize what the guy that sold you the machine might have been doing alone at night before pressing that power on/off button? yuck!!

Seriously, I respect your ideas of cost effectiveness, but you must respect people that decide otherwise too.

This is not about selling a few more copies of OS4, I have magazines from April 2001 (yes those sold at national newstands) which are full of reviews of commercial games and software for Amiga and yet all my friends lost any faith in Amiga since it had no new computers and no official OS in development anymore (or they lacked knowledge of what was going on).
I got their interest back recently with all this X1000 and official OS developments though.

The X1000 is a first step to modernize the platform, different/cheaper options will be available in the future, but no serious company would dwell on dead shells from another manufacturer if they want any credibility with ex-amigans.

MOS was running on HW not specifically designed for it in version 1.0 and by its creators own admission is just their hobby now so they do what they please, the Amiga Operating System is a commercial OS and IP that always ran on HW specifically made for it and must follow a long term plan for delivering it on newer and newer original computers specifically made for it. There is no other road for it to travel, it's what it was and what will always be.

Last edited by DAX on 26-Jul-2010 at 01:06 PM.

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@Kronos
to further clarify that "yes to already existing MOS users" reply of mine, it was just a way of further insisting on the fact that both MOS and AOS will be sold to existing users most of the time (something I had stated earlier) while there were people here talking about "explosions" and licences selling like hot bread to who knows who

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@DAX

Quote:

DAX wrote: [snip] MOS was running on HW not specifically designed for it since version 1.0 and by its creators own admission is just their hobby now so they do what they please, the Amiga Operating System is a commercial OS and IP that always ran on HW specifically made for it and must follow a long term plan for delivering it on newer and newer original computers specifically made for it. There is no other road for it to travel, it's what it was and what will always be.

I truly hope that this chosen development path (ie they could choose otherwise) is successful for Hyperion/A-Eon/Acube.

Pro's:
No reliance on 2nd hand hardware
Complete access to hardware documentation
Control over hardware development direction
Prevention of piracy through exclusive production of compatible machines
Product marketability - bundled hardware/software product.

Con's:
Increased price due to balance of R&D/Production costs vs sales revenue
Requires large capital investment (Thankyou Trevor et al)
Risks inherent in developing new hardware with limited resources.
Product marketability - due to high price point.

It could also be pointed out that neither the Amigaones* nor the Pegasos 2s were exclusively developed for AmigaOS (* beyond customised roms).

Of course, MorphOS development path (supporting PPC macs) also has its pros and cons.

Pro's:
Well developed hardware (produced, tested, etc in large quantities)
Low hardware costs (New cannot compete pricewise with 2nd hand available in such _relatively_ large quantities)
No need for capital investment to support new models - simply concentrate on adapting software to hardware.
Product marketability - low entry costs

Con's:
No guaranteed access to hardware documentation.
User risks in buying 2nd hand.
No control over hardware development direction EXCEPT by choosing between available hardware options.
Product marketability - requires 2nd hand hardware.

At least, that is a brief synopsis of how I see the pro's/con's...

Last edited by Boot_WB on 26-Jul-2010 at 01:09 PM.

_________________
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@DAX

Amiga-Games reviewed in 2001 ?

How many of those were anything but ports of years-old Win-games ? And more important, how many of the games "reviewed" actually made it to release ? And how many within a sensible period of time ? No suprise your friends (and pretty much everybody else) has lost faith when that was all going on in "Amiga-games" and it wasn't much better with applications.

> is just their hobby now so they do what they please, the Amiga Operating System is a
> commercial OS and IP

I think your not really gasping the difference between hobby and commercial here. Hint, just coming up with a funny name and putting something like "inc" or "VOF" behind it has very little to do with it

>that always ran on HW specifically made for it

Which we all know has been a blazing success in the past 16 years ....

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@Develin

Quote:

Develin wrote: @drHirudo Don't buy a machine that havn't been officially said to be supported. Bying a machine on hearsay or some info not officially printed on MorphOS teams website is your own "lottery ticket"... The machine you bought probably never get any support from the MorphOS Team (that I judge by the data I saw from your site on the gfx-chipset). Another issue with laptops is that they are not as durable as normal computers, they wear out quicker. The good thing with a common machine as Apple is that there is still plenty of new parts and repair centers that fix the old stagnated models since there is millions of them around and this is not something that will dissappear over a night.

Depends on laptop and desktop motherboard.

http://www.behardware.com/html/news/?date=11-03-2009#10121
http://www.behardware.com/news/9581/taux-sav-cartes-meres.html
Return rates for desktop PC motherboard between 6 months to 1 year.


http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-features/44709-apple-laptops-less-reliable-than-asus-toshiba-sony
Laptop malfunction rate for 2 and 3 years.

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@DAX

Quote:

on used HW: do you realize what the guy that sold you the machine might have been doing alone at night before pressing that power on/off button? yuck!!

My all real Amigas are bought second hand. When I got my first Amiga 500 in early 90s I bought it 2nd hand as I couldnt afford new. A1200 I bought 2nd hand and when mobo died I dumped it and bought another. 2nd hand of course. Not big deal really.

Quote:

the Amiga Operating System is a commercial OS and IP that always ran on HW specifically made for it

Not really. BlizzardPPC, CyberstormPPC and Pegasos II were not made for it. The original AmigaOne was not specifically made for it either -- it was just rebranded Teron. SAM440 was designed for the embedded market. Dunno if it succeeded there.

Quote:

and must follow a long term plan for delivering it on newer and newer original computers specifically made for it

Now you are making it up.

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@afxgroup

There is nothing wrong in SDL per se just many games using SDL are low quality and buggy.

Last edited by itix on 26-Jul-2010 at 01:17 PM.

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@drHirudo

Quote:

Wrong. When I bough my micro AmigaOne I received AmigaOS 4 bundled with it. Later I bought AmigaOS 4.1 SEPARATELY. If I had purchased spare microAmigaOne for just in case my machine breaks, I would still buy one AmigaOS 4.1 copy. No need for two. If you love, like Opi to buy three G5 machines, you have to buy three MorphOS licenses SEPARATELY. With AmigaOS 4 you don't have this problem.

If you bought spare mA1 (second hand of course) you would actually own two 4.0 licenses and one 4.1 license. That is three copies in total That is, you actually find spare mA1 without 4.1 already.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@Hammer

Quote:

Depends on laptop and desktop motherboard.

Sure, your absolutely right about that.

But in a general way, the component like the molded parts (size and weight limitations), battery, limitation for air flow etc. makes it easier for a laptop/netbook to fail compared to a desktop computer. This is all my own conclusions since I've used a lot of both cathegories.
Add a couple of kids in the house makes the whole situation even more obvious ;)


But as you pointed out in the links above the life span tends to shrink (or return rate to rise if you like to look at it that way) with the higher production rates aswell regardless of what kind of computer type is created.
I just compare the cell phones today with the one created 10+ years ago, the lifespan is much shorter now even if the prices are higher...

@Kronos
we had this conversation several times not interested in having it again. If putting 200.000+ eur on the table is not commercial for you then so be it.

@Itix
The only HW that wasn't developed with the Amiga in mind (among the ones you mentioned) was the the Pegasos 2 (the accelerator cards were made and commercialized for Amiga computers running AmigaOS), Sam is questionable considering those who made it were the leading Amiga guys in Italy (all running Amiga related business before and while forming Acube, which ended up being the official and only distributor of AmigaOS, even AmigaKit buys its copies from them) and wasn't the TeronCX board just an evaluation board? You mean all Amiga one models are identical to the TeronCX evaluation board and with just a rom would run AmigaOS4.1.2 as is with the drivers and all?

In any case I didn't say AmigaOS was never run on HW not specifically made for it, I said that it was born like that and that this fact is part of its DNA since the inception, while the same cannot be said about MOS.
If during dark times things derailed a little here and there it doesn't change all of the above.

Last edited by DAX on 26-Jul-2010 at 01:54 PM.

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@DAX

There are plenty people spending 200k or more on hobbies (yachting, motorsports etc. come to mind). Whats a buisness or not is determined by other factors.

The Pegasos1&2 + Efika were build (both in HW as in SW) by the same people that kept Amiga alive after 1st C= and then ESCOM went under. he fact that they designed the HW in ways that allowed it's sale out side "Amiga" is nothing but a benefit (as it helped keeping the prices under control).

The Eyetech "A1"s are just as lightly revisioned version of the orginal TeronCX/PX, TeronMini. If you had bothered to order an Teron from MAI at that time you would have gotten a board 100% identical in HW (propraly even from the same production batch). Pretty much noone did, cos the board weren't any good at all (to put it midly).

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@Kronos
Yes but you fail to realize the difference between spending 200.000 to buy a Lamborghini Murcielago to keep it and have fun with it, and 200.000 (just as a starter there will be more) to make pruducts with full manufacturer warranty that will be sold for money to end customers.
The latter is commercial no matter how you put it.


P.S.
On the Teron subject, I don't consider refactored/redesigned motherboards for a special purpose (even if they take an evaluation board as their main example) as re-branded evaluation boards.
Maybe the first models were more similar but A1s were done in several flavors and i don't think they were all identical to the TeronCX EvB.

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@Kronos

Quote:

If you had bothered to order an Teron from MAI at that time you would have gotten a board 100% identical in HW (propraly even from the same production batch).

Price for Teron boards from MAI surpassed 3000 USD. AmigaOne was "little bit" cheaper...

@drHirudo

I think if you want to use 4.1 on several maschines ata time you'll need several copies, too. Okay if one A1 braeks you can just use teh 4.1 copy on an exchange maschine. But if a MorphOS computer breaks, I provide evidence for that and kindly ask teh MorphOS-team for an exchange key and voilá - there you go. The hardware lock is probably not the best thing you can dream of from a user'S POV, but it is nowhere that bad as many ppl think or suggest.
If you know the MorphOS-Team you can be pretty much sure that they will not leave you in the rain getting wet when your maschine fails. To my years long experience (am using the Peg1 since the 1.0 release in late Summer 2002) the support is very good.

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