@WolfToTheMoon
The Power Group isn't against PPC as we already discussed, and will work to bring MANY new models out and prices down, in the coming years.

As for tablets what's the mainstream chance of winning there? I mean they have the iPAD and they have Samsung Galaxy, but this is the tip of the iceberg, wait till all the asian manufacturers come out with their versions and the market will be flooded with Tablets that costs nothing on one side, and another group of people that NEEDS iPhone connectivity/data sharing (which will buy Appl's products of course).
In good numbers a PPC Amiga well marketed and distributed (maybe with some original team member such as Carl Sassenrath backing it up) would create an healthy and sustainable environment and that is all Amiga related products can aim at.
C=USA it's still very small VS Asian giants, I wouldn't go against them while alienating aficionados, the only result would be to lose both crowds.

A real Amiga (a cheaper X500 perhaps?) in cooperation with Hyperion/Aeon would have a nice potential IMHO, while dreams of winning in the mainstream ocean of Tablets will remain just that. A dream.

Last edited by DAX on 18-Oct-2010 at 02:54 PM.

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SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

@DAX
If they could (not only in terms of money) they would ..... 30.000.000 $ ???
With this money you can have a custom case in 7hours.... 30.000.000$..... imagine.....

One note... i would be surprized if the X1000 mobo is not from china. Nothing wrong about.
Imagine again.... 30.000.000$ What da f****** you can buy all kind of stuff to AMIGA...
Pay developers just with the accrued interest on you bank account.....


Still i think (80%) it's a fake and Big Ben will cry some day very loud.
If it comes i "hope" (!!!) they will make a good run. Just to bring the name back. But the big mass has forgotten the AMIGA....
So there will be no "mainstream" waiting for a company called "AMIGA"
Even companies which where born on the Amiga have today a management which doesn't know "AMIGA"....
Commodore is the same but not as worse than the Trademark "AMIGA"
More people know C= ... But even this is not the mass that will pay for another PC.... especially if is not called Apple, Sony, HP, Dell, Acer whatever.....

the market is saturated. Especially forget the tablet idea... i bumped it too. Chinese OEM tablets are not ready yet. ATOM is still sucking on batteries.... so ARM is a nice road. Commodore Android..... hmmm.... but hey why? Market is saturated.....

So if you will put really money in this you will cry at the end of the day.....

_________________
AROS Broadway - AEROS - Aminux - AmiCloud - indieGO! Appstore - AmiWallet - VAN lossless video codec - AMC Amiga media Center -KrypUnite - LibertyNet - MinX - amigaNX

@DAX

Quote:

The Power Group isn't against PPC as we already discussed, and will work to bring prices down in the coming years.

and then what? Even if it comes down in prices, which OS would you run on it to be competitive? face it... PPC is dead as far as home computing is concerned. Dead and burried.

Quote:

As for tablets what's the mainstream chance of winning there?

It all depends on marketing and the device itself. A priori, nothing can be dismissed. Do they have chances of selling pretty nice number of units? Yes.

Quote:

A real Amiga (a cheaper X500 perhaps?) in cooperation with Hyperion/Aeon would have a nice potential IMHO, while dreams of winning in the mainstream ocean of Tablets will remain just that. A dream.

it would have no potential in the mainstream and it would probably be a unprofitable venture.

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@WolfToTheMoon

hmm with 30.000.000$
you can bump AmigaOS PPC to run on XBOX360 based MOBO's.... ask the chinese manufacture to make a small change and it would be cheap. You would have a Tripple-Core PPC monster.....
For 30.000.000$ AmigaOS gets SMP and MP and is still not ressource hungry like Linux/Windows....
For 30.000.000 you could ask IBM as manufactur of your CPU's to get support via Transitives QucikTransit..... IBM has bought the guys who did Rosetta....

If i had the money i would go PPC.... but not in the price range the X1000 "may" go.

Whatever I buy one : D X1000

_________________
AROS Broadway - AEROS - Aminux - AmiCloud - indieGO! Appstore - AmiWallet - VAN lossless video codec - AMC Amiga media Center -KrypUnite - LibertyNet - MinX - amigaNX

@phoenixkonsole

It's all money wasted... it would make sense if AmigaOS had, let's say, 100 000 users and commercial development on larger scale. Maybe then it would make sense but it would still be wiser to invest that in x86.

I would also gladly buy X1000, but it's far too expensive for me. Maybe I'll get it used someday.

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@WolfToTheMoon

Well not sure.... because: 30.000.000$!!!!! Waaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!
You could even bring the best applications to your platform. A AmigaX360 would cost 299¤
Ohhh perhaps you could play some games too ; )

30.000.000$ ..... wait let me calculate how long i need to safe it.... hmmm 4200years??? Just calculated the money for hobbies..... damn!

_________________
AROS Broadway - AEROS - Aminux - AmiCloud - indieGO! Appstore - AmiWallet - VAN lossless video codec - AMC Amiga media Center -KrypUnite - LibertyNet - MinX - amigaNX

@WolfToTheMoon
When the original Xbox came to market had 0 users and a ton of PSX zealots around him.

But a good product, with the right price and right marketing can win users back (Amiga sold a few million pieces back then).

As for the OS, that one will have to be the modernized AmigaOS 5.0 featuring SMP and memory protection.
Let's face it, after the jump to windows XP the number of BIG new features implemented in newer OSs is finished. SMP, memory protection, 64-BITs were all implemented 10 years ago and nothing but marginal improvement are present in subsequen OSs. Which mean that once AOS will implement those too, it will be as good as any other OS. Moreover as phoenixkonsole says, with enough money you could hire more programmers and implement those features in a shorter time frame.

_________________
SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

@DAX

Quote:

As for the OS, that one will have to be the modernized AmigaOS 5.0 featuring SMP and memory protection.

that still remains to be seen... for an OS that lacks USB 2.0 support in 2010, that's a very large path to cross.

Quote:

When the original Xbox came to market had 0 users and a ton of PSX zealots around him.

True, but it had Microsoft and their developers + outside developers making first class games for it. Amiga-like OSes have somewhat buggy ports of old games.

Quote:

Which mean that once AOS will implement those too, it will be as good as any other OS.

Yeah, and the only "small" problem left if that happens is that there will be almost no users.

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@WolfToTheMoon
Offer something good and the users will come (I bet you can sell 100.000 "GOOD" machines in Germany alone) and throw enough money at development (with more people hired) and the "huge path to cross" as you say, will be crossed more hastily.

_________________
SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

@DAX

Quote:

Offer something good and the users will come (I bet you can sell 100.000 "GOOD" machines in Germany alone) and throw enough money at development (with more people hired) and the "huge path to cross" as you say, will be crossed more hastily.

Agreed.. but today in desktop market, something good means x86, sadly...
You would need a lot more then 30 million $ to make a competitive PPC machine with a competitive OS and enough apps to attract those ex amigans(not to mention new users) that are now happily using their win/mac/linux machines.
Like I said, it would be closer to reality if PPC amiga OS market today had 100 000 users. Sadly, it has a tiny user base which makes it impossible to do anything useful with it for a realistic sum of money.

Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 18-Oct-2010 at 03:38 PM.
Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 18-Oct-2010 at 03:38 PM.

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@DAX

Almost completely agree. But don't talk about AmigaOS 5. Amiga Inc, CUSA's new best buddy, already made that. Remember? It was 'better than MacOS X'...

Hyperion's AmigaOS 6 should be a pretty good OS, though. It and ACube/A-Eon's hardware should make for a nice addition to the range of products that bring Power Architecture into the home.

@T-J
Quote:

Almost completely agree. But don't talk about AmigaOS 5. Amiga Inc, CUSA's new best buddy, already made that. Remember? It was 'better than MacOS X'...

:)

_________________
SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

@DAX

Do you know how many millions of Euros Microsoft dumped into XBOX to make it successful? The loses were phenomenal, very few companies would have been able to sustain them. Plus Microsoft spend more money on developing games for the machine. It's hard to see XBOX as a model for any company not having a huge pile of cash laying around.

It's been a long time since a small company has succeeded in breaking into the game console market.

Last edited by persia on 18-Oct-2010 at 03:51 PM.

@rebraist

I don't usually spend so much time responding on the forums these days, but I understand your concerns are heart felt and that is why I am going to give you as detailed a reply as I can.
I've listened to what you've said and I want to convey my thought process.
I don't guarantee you'll like what I have to say or our strategy but there is a reason for everything, and it is our choice to make.
I recognise that many people feel the Amiga, the brand, and the tech, to be practically a part of their identity. I surely am one of these people too. However, one must take a pragmatic view of the situation and think of ways in which things can move forward. It is my belief that the entities currently involved with the Amiga community have waged a valiant effort to revive the brand and aspects of the classic technology. However, it should be clear to anyone that is watching, even from the sidelines, that this is not going to be enough for any form of significant growth or profit in future.
There are also some people who want to see things die.
"Let the Amiga die" they say.
"Let Commodore die" they say.
I don't. I can't. I won't. Too bad.
"If you don't do xyz" they say "then the Amiga is truly dead."
Well, by all objective criteria it is on life support in a coma.
Things can only go up from here.
We had great times with our Commodores and Amigas to be sure.
Keep those memories alive as long as you want....I do.....but why shouldn't I want to bring it back. Bring it ALL BACK. One step at a time. We can't do it all at once...and we have a lot of people and interests pulling against us, but that is no reason to give up.
That there is so much emotion only tells us that we're on to something here and not everyone is as objectionable as the currently conflicted Amiga community.
There is not enough consensus to do what everyone wants, and not enough time or money to make every Amiga dream possible. We will go for the scenario that makes the most sense and has the greatest chance of success. This may not be what you would go for but there's been plenty of time for others to attain the Commodore or Amiga brands and do what they want. We're the ones taking the gamble. Give us time to see if it will work. After 17 years of decline what is there really to lose. We're not killing any other project, nor competing directly with them. Please enjoy those other projects if that is what you want. That is not to say we can't attract people to our products, even if you're not one of them.
Quote:

rebraist wrote: I know you know we don't each other know. Broken the ice. You surely have noted a "little bit upset" in this community when many have known the name "amiga commodore" will be tied to windows pcs.

We're tied to Windows PCs in the same way Apple is tied to Windows PCs.
There are many outdated notions surrounding the Amiga.
That it must be this chip, architecture or that OS. No one agrees on everything.
Time to get over it, because to an objective observer it doesn't matter.
I am actually more likely to buy a Mac because it runs Windows than I was before the switch to x86.
I know other people that feel much the same way. I am not saying you have to live in Windows if you don't want to. It is an option remember, and if we don't provide a computing experience that you find appealing, then it is absolutely fine not to be our customer.
Quote:

What, arguably, you don't know is the proud that every amigan have and the fanatic love every one of us has for this platform.

I am well aware of it. I have been a member of this forum for several years and a lurker for even longer. I have dreamt of the day when the Amiga will come back and reclaim its rightful place in the computing world. I have waited and waited and waited....and where is it? How many long winded posts have I made? And how many have been listened to?
Now, it's our shot. It is my passion....and it is something....believe it or not I am taking very seriously. Everyone had their chance. Now it's our turn.
Quote:

The fact that we didn't resign to commodore, gateway, ainc, demises let you know what passion is amiga for us.

No one has control over the future and what will be. There is a gamble in everything and no-one sets out to fail. This is our gamble to take, just as others have taken their gamble. The people who have stuck in there are to be commended, but this doesn't describe everyone that was around at the beginning....and why is that? Because what is available today does not provide as much value to them as a more mainstream, affordable and powerful alternative. We hope to be in a position to change that value proposition, and in the end I believe our Amiga involvement will benefit the majority of Amiga fans, whether they are in the current community of not.
Quote:

Morphos is an example: amiga shouldn't have died so morphos was the answer to all who wanted a new and better amiga os. Aros instead was the answer by those who thought that the old amiga (68k) was the best and charmed by opensource flavour, reimplemented it on x86.

And with the community in a continual state of decline for the last decade, don't you think it is time someone stepped in and tried something different? Well I do.
The OSes are great and all, but they are not actually what a more mainstream audience will want, at least in their current state. We need to provide them with options at a very minimum, and hopefully something that will be appealing to Amiga diehards as well. But as I said, we can't do everything at once.
Quote:

Aos4 is the son of ainc and hyperion and surely you know it. Aos4 is called the official amiga os, and imagine what has happened here when a third (you) bought the use of names commodore and amiga. At least it was a volcano explosion. The official amigaos stripped from the official "commodore amiga".

You say it as though we've committed a crime or something for doing business.
Hyperion still have the AmigaOne name, and they had no intention of attaining the Commodore or "Amiga" trademarks, so we have not stripped anything from anyone.
You do realise we've been in contact with A-Eon/Hyperion before and after the AMIGA trademark license. The door is totally open to them, but if they don't want to walk through it, then take it up with them. They know how to contact us.
Quote:

Let's say that many of us are, at the best, skeptical on you and your plans.

Seeing as we haven't divulged much in the way of plans, it can be quite annoying personally, but understandable. If we could tell you we would, but things are better left unsaid until they are tied up with a neat little bow or everyone gets their knickers in a knot. If I even ask for suggestions I get criticised for not bending over backwards to everyone's demands. There are things we can do, and things we can't do, and there is a reason for everything.
Quote:

But now is your turn and amiga could reborn by your hands.

Thanks for at least acknowledging that.
Quote:

What was amiga?

The eternal question. It was different things to different people and there is no single answer that all people can agree to. Observe the infighting on some of the Amiga forums for any period of time and this will be immediately apparent.
Quote:

Simply it was a performing and cheap hw/sw platform. Good os and good hw solution at affordable prices.

Some see it that way too. But ask yourself why it was cheap. In many cases it will be because compared to the competition it was under-specced, especially as time went on. In my experience the Amiga was anything but cheap, especially by the time you added a proprietary hard-disk, flicker fixer, memory, RTG and whatever else to reach parity with some of the other hardware generally available at the time as desktop machines. The majority of Amiga users bought into the idea of the Amiga as a kick-ass game console that just happened to be a computer, and even fewer appreciated the OS like we do today. We would love to have the "insert favourite Amiga flavour" OS available on our machines, but I guess we're going to have to go our own way....for the time being at least.
Quote:

So some clues to you:

Thanks. Of course that's a little condescending, we're not entirely clueless.
But we'll listen patiently.
Quote:

1) Don't clone apple. Apple sells garbage at 10 times the prices other brands sell. If you don't believe it look at benchmark of hackintosh pcs (cracked osx on normal x86 pcs). They're better than original apple and cheaper. Amiga was affordable.

And yet Apple are very successful. We are not building Wallmart PCs here. We are putting together some kick-ass hardware, with good components. There will be various purchasing options available. The cheapest option might appeal to you, to others it may be full blown kick-ass systems. You'll be able to spend as much or as little as you want, and there isn't anyone putting a gun to your head. We're not saying..."drop everything you've got and buy this!". We're just hoping perhaps that people will consider us favourably when it comes time for their next computer purchase. If you want to build something cheaper at your corner store go right ahead. What can I say? You're just too clever.
Quote:

2) Amiga was a multimedia platform: you can use windows, ubuntu, aros but don't forget one thing:MULTIMEDIA! If i'll buy an amiga i'll expect some alliance with adobe for photoshop (or similar products), newtek for videotoaster or lightwave, discreet for 3dsmax and steinberg for cubase. These are examples but i'll better buy an amiga if it'll be a complete product. Don't you want to put it on the machine? Try to have a discount on sw so i can buy them at a lesser price. MULTIMEDIA.

This sounds an awful lot like a demand...but okay. How much do you think all that software costs? And how much do you think it costs to get these companies to do a port to xyz if that is required by your reasoning. There are reasonable alternatives to the software packages that you mention that can be provided out of the box and you don't even have to pay the MS or even Hyperion tax.
Quote:

3) Quality: Even 25 years after, amigas live. My a500 is still there and when on this forum someone writes: my a2000 keyboard is dead, think it's a keyboard with at least 20 years. Quality. There are tons of pc clone of poor quality. Amiga were quality machines.

In some regards computing technology has been on a plateau for the last few years. There is a move towards good enough computing and you don't need a Quad Core monster to get things done. However, that said, the pace of x86 technology in particular is almost exponential. It is inconceivable that you will be using any computer you bought today in 20 years. The whole concept of a desktop computer may not even be around then. Not to worry, we will not be selling disposable computers anyway.
Quote:

4) Originality: I don't buy apple for a few reason. Apart for that n.zi of steve jobs, their products are not the quality they say, they're more and less pc clones. Magnetic stuff, light keys these are toys you can buy in a walmart. No originality. Their os is a unix clone. Again no originality. Amiga was originality, uniqueness. Try to reach this too in your amiga and you'll sell more.

I agree but there is only so much you can do in the desktop form factor, and no matter what you do it has all been done before. Keyboard computers are pretty unique though, although I would never say they are the be-all-end-all. Some people will like it, others will not. We'll try for something unique to be sure, but there will always be, "I can do that on my PC" comments. Not everything Apple produces sucks, just as surely as not everything we do will suck, and you don't even have our full product catalogue yet.
Quote:

You have our dream in your hands. This dream has been stomped many many times in these years.

And don't I know it. Success is always uncertain of course but that shouldn't stop us from trying. I've been on the other side too, pleading for certain parties to go in the direction I wanted. If we can do it, fine, if we can't....well sorry, we can't.
Quote:

Even if many of us don't like you too much, try to reach these goals: uniqueness, quality, multimediality and affordability. Your machines will be more amiga not only in the name. We're only some hundred but we will not forget it. Forgive my poor english. Best luck and regards.

We'll do our best. Even if you don't like us very much.
Now, back to work.

Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 18-Oct-2010 at 04:21 PM.
Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 18-Oct-2010 at 04:18 PM.

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@WolfToTheMoon

No i think people like Steven and me could do alot with 30.000.000$ : P
A small (i mean small like equal to a Wii but more powerfull) ppc system with low price and a all you could need software package would be enought to get 100.000 units sold to "normal" non Amigans...
Sexy case, nice name, instant on/off, no viruses, parental control and finished "Darwine PPC" which is doable with 30.000.000$

Targeted at woman, grandmas/grandpas, children education and BAM...

Just a note.... i am selling X86 Systems but i ever loved PPC.

I think the Platform is not the key.... it is the Software you offer... or in other words.. if you can offer all needed apps you can also offer a PPC, Mips or Sparc machine.... who cares?
Take a ipad for example which runs on a ARM.... it is the IOS and the apps which makes it good. Sure also it runs longer than a ATOM based pad. But the real cake are the apps.... the users are like Pokemon-trainers... gona catch em all : )

_________________
AROS Broadway - AEROS - Aminux - AmiCloud - indieGO! Appstore - AmiWallet - VAN lossless video codec - AMC Amiga media Center -KrypUnite - LibertyNet - MinX - amigaNX

@WolfToTheMoon

And those Quote:

ex amigans(not to mention new users) that are now happily using their win/mac/linux machines.

are going to throw away/buy another machines to get a pc that is branded Amiga to use, what, win/mac/linux?

Yeah, right.

P.S. Which BTW would probably cost more than the same spec machine by another well known pc reseller.

Last edited by emeck on 18-Oct-2010 at 03:56 PM.

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PowerBook 5.2 MorphOS 3.15
PowerBook 5.8 MorphOS 3.15
Amiga 1200 BPPC/BVision AOS4.1 FE

@persia
you didn't understand the intention... the XBOX was but is not longer a failure... we just said if you would use the same technic you could make it cheap.

If you wan't a good running PPC example take the Wii. The Wii was sold from the beginning without loss. And in terms of price/performance ratio it is the "bad choice" for a customer.
But THE SOFTWARE makes the difference.

PS3 market is not bad as well.

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 18-Oct-2010 at 03:59 PM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 18-Oct-2010 at 03:58 PM.

_________________
AROS Broadway - AEROS - Aminux - AmiCloud - indieGO! Appstore - AmiWallet - VAN lossless video codec - AMC Amiga media Center -KrypUnite - LibertyNet - MinX - amigaNX

@DAX

Quote:

Keep in mind I have nothing against you or C=USA, I even asked several time to join forces with Hyperion/A-Eon, but the ones that are ABSOLUTELY against custom PPC solution it's you.

Huh? They're the ones who have cut off contact. You go talk to them.

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@emeck

Quote:

ex amigans(not to mention new users) that are now happily using their win/mac/linux machines. are going to throw away/buy another machines to get a pc that is branded Amiga to use, what, win/mac/linux?

I would consider seriously, yes, to replace my desktop with c64x and my Toshiba laptop with a AMIGA laptop... Also, I will be buying a tablet for my studies, so yet another possible product. If it's good quality and decent price, naturally. Seeing that they intend to provide accessories and C64/Amiga emulation, I'd be more then happy to buy one of their controllers and play 1942 and rick dangerous as I did when I was a kid on my C64, but now without the hassle of magnetic tapes

Also, if they introduce a new custom OS for their computers, be it from the very start or later on, I'd be also interested in coding, be it games or apps, time and money permitting on my side.

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@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

You do realise we've been in contact with A-Eon/Hyperion before and after the AMIGA trademark license. The door is totally open to them, but if they don't want to walk through it, then take it up with them.

This is where you confuse me. You say the door is totally open to them, but what does that mean, exactly?