@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote: @thread Adam Barnes, the Technical Director of Varisys - Nemo progress report #6

So the problem are about the standard and (theoretically) fully avaliable parts and not for the custom ones? mmmmm that gives more reason to those who want to continue with powerpc and unmount a bit more the arguments to those who say that going to x86 we would have cheaper and faster (faster as in avaliability) hardware

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@Fransexy

Quote:

Fransexy wrote: @number6 Quote: number6 wrote: @thread Adam Barnes, the Technical Director of Varisys - Nemo progress report #6 So the problem are about the standard and (theoretically) fully avaliable parts and not for the custom ones? mmmmm that gives more reason to those who want to continue with powerpc and unmount a bit more the arguments to those who say that going to x86 we would have cheaper and faster (faster as in avaliability) hardware

The difference is that by going x86 you don't have to build a new motherboard. You just source and support a high quality, readily available x86 board. No need to worry about sourcing components to build a motherboard.

@Kremlar

joined 12 Aug 2010...

TOP LURKING!

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@Fransexy
Go to Fractal Design's website, the only colours besides Black Pearl & Arctic White are Silver Arrow & Titanium Grey...

@Kremlar

You would initially need something like Apple's rosetta layer which would emulate the PPC hardware, until software made it to the X86 side, but with the speed increases the X86 hardware would give the layer would be invisible to users.

@Kremlar

Quote:

Kremlar wrote: @Fransexy Quote: Fransexy wrote: @number6 [quote] number6 wrote: @thread Adam Barnes, the Technical Director of Varisys - Nemo progress report #6 So the problem are about the standard and (theoretically) fully avaliable parts and not for the custom ones? mmmmm that gives more reason to those who want to continue with powerpc and unmount a bit more the arguments to those who say that going to x86 we would have cheaper and faster (faster as in avaliability) hardware

The difference is that by going x86 you don't have to build a new motherboard. You just source and support a high quality, readily available x86 board. No need to worry about sourcing components to build a motherboard.
[/quote]

change, "high quality, readily available x86 board" with a sound chipset like now and you have the same scenario

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Quote:

TOP LURKING!

;) I don't even have an Amiga and haven't for about 20 years, but can't help but lurk.


Quote:

change, "high quality, readily available x86 board" with a sound chipset like now and you have the same scenario

How is that? There are plenty of high quality, readily available x86 boards with decent integrated audio. I can order a couple hundred Intel DP55WG boards right now from my distributor for $150 each. Boom - problem solved, no need to spend time, money and resources trying to manufacture a dead-end, inferior motherboard. Why reinvent the wheel?

I know, problem is porting OS 4.x to x86. AROS already exists. Time/money/resources spent on manufacturing new hardware and/or porting to and writing drivers for dead-end hardware would be better spent towards porting OS 4.x to x86.

Some people are hung up on PowerPC and don't want x86. Why not?

I don't get it.

And here we go...

again...

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@Kremlar

Quote:

Some people are hung up on PowerPC and don't want x86. Why not?

Because it's got an horribly ugly kludge of an instruction set, for starters. And it's an old nemesis.... It's a combination of a desire of elegance and emotional ties.

Personally I'm ok with x86 hardware, but while I'd happily play with assembler on M68k or PPC, I only do so grudgingly if I absolutely have to on x86, and I'd like a PPC box in large part because it's different...

If we were all after being cost effective and modern and up to date, most of us wouldn't be here, after all :)

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@vidarh

It's definitely emotional. Heck, my first job was at a PC clone shop, and I couldn't help but bring in my Amiga and loop the Walker demo to show off just how awesome it was compared to x86 clones.

But times have changed and custom hardware doesn't make sense unless it's superior to what is available. In this case it's not!

I like the idea of buying an old Amiga, restoring it and seeing how much you can get out of it.

I like the Minimig/FPGA Arcade projects to mimic original Amigas, allowing people to relive old memories on new hardware.

I even like the idea of Natami, evolving the original Amiga concepts while maintaining compatibility.

But I don't get the idea of X1000 which is to build a new, very expensive platform that does nothing better hardware-wise other than cater to the needs of OS 4.x. If the harware would be better than what's readily available for x86 I could see it, but that's simply not the case here.

The advantages of porting to x86 are so great - it boggles my mind that there is stil development of Amiga OS, that there is still new hardware being created, and that there's no movement towards x86. Seems like such a waste of time and resources.

Quote:

If we were all after being cost effective and modern and up to date, most of us wouldn't be here, after all :)

That's what I don't get:

If you want nostalgia, go original Amiga, emulation, Minimig, or perhaps FPGA Arcarde / Natami when released.

People use AROS/MorphOS/OS 4.x because they want to "fight the man", be different. I get that! But today hardware is not the way to do it unless you can create something truly unique. Fight the man with software, but use economical hardware so you have a fighting chance.

People wonder why iPhones and iPads are so popular. It's the user experience! It's good, easy to use and quick gratification software!

Last edited by Kremlar on 10-Mar-2011 at 05:04 PM.

@Kremlar

Quote:

People wonder why iPhones and iPads are so popular. It's the user experience! It's good, easy to use and quick gratification software!

But they don't sport an x86! So, your whole story about going x86 is contradicted by yourself. It is not about the processor, but it's all about the user experience. Well, that can equally be accomplished on a PPC processor, so no need to switch to the old steamengine me thinks.

When taking several things into account, like:
-- Apple getting an ARM license
-- Apple aquiring P.A. Semi and have them work on the ARM design
-- Apple NOT content with Intel's gfx offerings
-- Apple opting for NVidia instead for its superiour performance
-- NVidea getting an ARM license
-- NVidea integrating ARM with its GPU
-- ARM increasing the number of cores to 8
-- MicroSoft suggesting ARM increas the number of cores to 16

Believe me: within a few years x86 is passée for Apple. Heck, even MicroSoft makes Windows available for the ARM platform.
From the iPad upwards we will notice a gradual transition from x86 to ARM, culminating in abandoning x86 alltogether by Apple.

So, why should WE switch to an aging processor? Because every farmer and his dog did?

But I admit that I have no clue at all about such matter.

OldFart

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@Fransexy

Quote:

So the problem are about the standard and (theoretically) fully avaliable parts and not for the custom ones? mmmmm that gives more reason to those who want to continue with powerpc and unmount a bit more the arguments to those who say that going to x86 we would have cheaper and faster (faster as in avaliability) hardware

I think the point is that you dont have to build your own hardware but can use existing hardware (possibly from trusted vendor).

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@OldFart

Quote:

When taking several things into account, like: -- Apple getting an ARM license -- Apple aquiring P.A. Semi and have them work on the ARM design -- Apple NOT content with Intel's gfx offerings -- Apple opting for NVidia instead for its superiour performance -- NVidea getting an ARM license -- NVidea integrating ARM with its GPU -- ARM increasing the number of cores to 8 -- MicroSoft suggesting ARM increas the number of cores to 16

Looks like PPC is clear winner here.

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@itix

Quote:

Looks like PPC is clear winner here.

What I meant to say was, that it makes very little sense to switch to x86 when ARM is clearly emerging at an incredible pace.
Indeed when a switch is neccessary, ARM would make most sense.

OldFart

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@Kremlar

Welcome!

Quote:

But they don't sport an x86! So, your whole story about going x86 is contradicted by yourself. It is not about the processor, but it's all about the user experience. Well, that can equally be accomplished on a PPC processor, so no need to switch to the old steamengine me thinks.

Sure, if the economics were there to build the machine for $499. But clearly the economics are not there. With x86 you have a high performance, inexpensive platform to build on. Clearly Hyperion/A-Eon are not Apple and do not have Apple's cash, budget or potential market, so it's impossible for them to spend the R&D on new hardware and expect to make it back in volume.

And I'm not delusional - Hyperion/A-Eon are not competing with any of the big boys and they probably will never be, but they are competing for the niche market and should be playing on the hearts of nostalgic people like me. I'll spend $500-$600 on something interesting, but not $2000+.

Apple didn't use the x86 in the iPad because it wasn't suited for that form factor. Apple builds all their desktops and notebooks with x86 because they are suited for that form factor.

You can guess all you want about the future, but the reality is that x86 is used in 99.999% of all desktop hardware today, and it is far and away the price/performance leader. If Hyperion/A-Eon/whatever were focusing on building a tablet, then sure - I'd say go ARM. But they're not - they're building desktop PCs.

And don't count Intel out - they're #1 in the business for a reason, and it would shock me if in 2-3 years they didn't have a very competitive product.

Quote:

What I meant to say was, that it makes very little sense to switch to x86 when ARM is clearly emerging at an incredible pace. Indeed when a switch is neccessary, ARM would make most sense.

Just like the early 90s when Intel CISC was dead and RISC PowerPCs were the future?

Just like the early 2000s when Windows was dead and Linux was the future?

Just like when Netscape was king and Microsoft was going down the tubes?

Just like when AMD had a recognizable market share and Intel's P4 was behind in performance?

How many standard form factor ARM motherboards are out there?

Go with what works today, not with what you think might work in the future.

@Kremlar

PPC works, OS4 works, the X1000 will work.

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Quote:

PPC works, OS4 works, the X1000 will work.

I don't doubt that, but at what cost and what is the benefit to paying that price?

Give me something groundbreaking today and I'll spend $2000. If it's merely "interesting", it has to be cheap..

I don't question whether the product will work, I just question who will buy it at that price.

@Kremlar

People buying an X1000 are the same kind as the people who bought a brand new A2000 / A3000 / A4000 when they were released. I mean, the most of them could have settled with an A500, A600 (erm.. doesn't quite fit, I know), A1200 but just bought the far more expensive big-boxes because they could.

Sure, for that money you could buy far more powerfull hardware, but would it provide you with the same satisfaction?

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