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      /  Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
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Amigo1 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 7:16:23
#321 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1388
From: Cork Ireland

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@ferrels

Quote:
No one in his right mind is going to pay $3000+ USD for 7 year old technology


4 years, it is 4 years old technology!

Quote:
The price/performance ratio is just too out of line.


it's not even that, quoting Wikipedia the processor was released for worldwide sale on Q2007. Now, I really don't think every company did get the processor on date the Ctober, 2nd 2007 unless they maybe ordered 1.000.000 units.. (or even less if..)

So I would say it's a 2008 Processor which makes it a barely 3 years old CPU.. Considering a hardware company has to build, test and debug a motherboard on top of it, I'm really wondering how "old" the current processors are..

I mean, look how many different makes of laptops and desktop PCs are out there!
Does every company employ 50 engineers for each new system?
How long does it take to engineer, manufacture and produce a new laptop motherboard?
Do those companies get all the specs of the new processors some years ahead of the release date of the processor itself?
I guess those engineers do not get paid much..

As far as rumors say, Apple started to develop new systems 2 years ago. They are still not out yet! Why?
sarcasm on
Why can't Trevor not just sell the X1000 for the bare components price?
Why does he have or wants to make a win out of it?
He has so much money, the only right thing to do is to spend it for us, to give US a new Amiga don't you think? All those other people thinking otherwise are just greedy poor bugger beggars not willing to share what they have with the community!

And since the X1000 project has takes that long to materialize, Trevor should already commission the development for the next generation of it, so it will be ready on time! This would spare a lot of critics for the next system! After all he want's new hardware for his collection! He should bloody do something for it!

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pavlor 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 7:16:25
#322 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8486
From: Unknown

@eXec

Quote:
And what If hyperion bankrupts? the fully license goes back to Ainc?


No, I think. It will pass to the legal successor of Hyperion.

Quote:
Still to expensive...far way too much... 1000 is the roof of the abnormal price..


Expensive, yes. But its price/performance ratio is on the level of Efika.

Last edited by pavlor on 18-Apr-2011 at 07:18 AM.

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Daniel 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 7:53:42
#323 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Mar-2010
Posts: 239
From: Unknown

@Forcie-NatamiTeam

Natami looks cool and would be great solution for many people. I just wonder is it for those who want new hardware to run old software on fast or will there actually be much in the way of OS and application development?

For me it seems the x1000 and Natami are heading down different routes, one is more about taking the software forward (with x1000 providing a platform for continued OS4 development) and the other is more hardware focused. Both are ambitious and exciting, of course both will be expensive bits of kit compared with your average x86 box.

OS4 on Natami type hardware would be my ideal, how cool would it be if the two projects came together to give us some hybrid of the two in the future. A machine that could boot OS4 with Timberwolf, AmiCygnix, Blender, OWB, etc, but also able to run classics like DPaint without the need for UAE, or boot directly from ADF images or even real floppies .

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opi 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 8:07:32
#324 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@KingKong

Quote:
Is this really an Amiga forum?


Yes. What do you expected? Blind praise because you came up with impossible scheme that makes no sense? Just because it is about Amiga?

Quote:
AmigaOS once had the chance to become a world-OS and because of MS went wrong AmigaOS may have a second chance. I have absolutly no interest in a hobby-OS for a bunch of loonies - AmigaOS has to become a chief-OS or it can get lost.


Boy, I have some bad news for you. You somehow left your own dimension where AmigaOS had a chance to become a world-OS. In our reality it was never an option. I wish I could help you back to your wonderful reality. Someone have a phone number to Mr. Hawkings?

Last edited by opi on 18-Apr-2011 at 08:09 AM.

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vidarh 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 8:16:07
#325 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@KingKong

Quote:
Is this really an Amiga forum?


It's great to want AmigaOS to have success, but the reality of it is that while it still has a lot of great properties that would be awesome to have in a modern OS, it also has a lot of properties that makes it totally inadequate for mass market adoption today. Maybe they can be fixed, but not without either massive investment or massive time.

A bare minimum would be full memory protection (which the naysayers keeps telling us is impossible, while I don't agree it *is* a problem that will require a lot of engineering to get a solution that doesn't break every single piece of existing software or just emulate them in a window a la UAE) and SMP support. But that's just the OS, then there's a bunch of applications that needs to be there to get a minimum base of what's acceptable today.

Maybe AmigaOS or one of the derivatives will manage to get advanced enough some day - after all an OS like Linux succeeded against immense odds too (though with less advanced competition than what AmigaOS faces today), but it's by no means in a suitable state for mass adoption today.

Hence the negative response when someone suggests trying to push AmigaOS somewhere it doesn't currently belong.

_________________
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asymetrix 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 8:26:31
#326 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 801
From: United Kingdom

@thread

We a already spending alot on our choice of CPU, so why dont Amiga exec sit down with IBM and develop / synthesize their own custom core.

In 3 years we could have a
Cell BBE based core with other core technology like Power6+

media processor for multiple HD stream processing

https://www-01.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/products/PowerPC_470S_Synthesizable_Core

Oh, and we want better than low end 3 DMIPS/mhz power !

Just as a note the latest i7 has 46 DMIPS/mhz performance.

Hell maybe we even can get our hands on PS3 motherboard license, when in 3 years PS4 will most likely be out.

We want a technology leapfrog - I am happy to spend 1000 on something like that.

Also a games C++ SDK/Framework !

_________________
Download 125.64 Mbps, 11.69 Mbps Upload :)

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pavlor 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 8:32:17
#327 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8486
From: Unknown

@asymetrix

Quote:
Just as a note the latest i7 has 46 DMIPS/mhz performance.


Forget about DMIPS marketing blabble. 46 DMIPS/MHz of i7 is summ of overal performance (all cores and all threads) - not single core performance (like 3 DMIPS/MHz PowerPC example you gave).

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-pekr- 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 9:08:02
#328 ]
Member
Joined: 29-May-2007
Posts: 98
From: Unknown

@asymetrix

I am not sure we should be in constant look for the most obscure CPU on the world While my bet is, that x86 would bring-in much more old Amiga users, than X1000 will ever bring (special investment not everyone will be willing to do), I can understand, why Hyperion and partners might not want x86 - they are trying to protect their business, simply by controlling all possible aspects of the game (of course it is questionable, if it works for them at all) ....

I have one proposition though, which I already expressed several times here. Go ARM! Definitely! Here's small summary:

  • Not an x86, not mainstream - you can build your HW yourself, or you can use some of existing designs.

  • Power efficient and Cortex A15 generation being powerfull enough. Heck, even some recent phones can do 3D FullHD video playback with ARM related GPUs.

  • It is still kind of embedded area = Hyperion and partners can produce end user products, based on AmigaOS, because we are not targetting desktop OS here, so some defficiencies of an OS can stay hidden.

  • In 1-2 years, when finishing the port, there will be next generation of ARM CPUs available. The point for enough of performance for an AmigaOS will be even less valid.

  • I am not a C language guy, but I don't believe claims about the price of porting effort to other CPU family for a single second. Hyperion and partners are loosing money trying to come-up with X1000 anyway, as there are zero sales right now.

    Cheers,
    -pekr-

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    Arko 
    Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
    Posted on 18-Apr-2011 9:12:46
    #329 ]
    Super Member
    Joined: 17-Jan-2007
    Posts: 1989
    From: Unknown

    @asymetrix

    Quote:

    asymetrix wrote:


    We a already spending alot on our choice of CPU, so why dont Amiga exec sit down with IBM and develop / synthesize their own custom core.




    You have quite a sense of humor.

    _________________
    AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

    I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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    pavlor 
    Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
    Posted on 18-Apr-2011 9:13:25
    #330 ]
    Elite Member
    Joined: 10-Jul-2005
    Posts: 8486
    From: Unknown

    @-pekr-

    Quote:
    I am not a C language guy, but I don't believe claims about the price of porting effort to other CPU family for a single second.


    All is simple for someone without any knowledge about problems in discussion.

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    Arko 
    Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
    Posted on 18-Apr-2011 9:15:09
    #331 ]
    Super Member
    Joined: 17-Jan-2007
    Posts: 1989
    From: Unknown

    @opi

    Quote:


    Boy, I have some bad news for you. You somehow left your own dimension where AmigaOS had a chance to become a world-OS. In our reality it was never an option.


    Don't be so negative, AmigaOS could have competed with Win3.11 (when it would had RTG support and came together with more professional hardware)

    _________________
    AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

    I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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    Arko 
    Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
    Posted on 18-Apr-2011 9:20:10
    #332 ]
    Super Member
    Joined: 17-Jan-2007
    Posts: 1989
    From: Unknown

    @KingKong

    Quote:

    KingKong wrote:
    @Arko

    The legal stuff has to be resolved. Would 100 Million Euro be enough?



    I will try send me the money, hopefully I could give you a positive feedback in three years.

    _________________
    AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

    I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
    http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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    Amigo1 
    Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
    Posted on 18-Apr-2011 9:22:07
    #333 ]
    Super Member
    Joined: 24-Jun-2004
    Posts: 1388
    From: Cork Ireland

    @opi

    Quote:

    opi wrote:

    Boy, I have some bad news for you. You somehow left your own dimension where AmigaOS had a chance to become a world-OS. In our reality it was never an option. I wish I could help you back to your wonderful reality. Someone have a phone number to Mr. Hawkings?


    lool!

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    KingKong 
    Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
    Posted on 18-Apr-2011 9:22:13
    #334 ]
    Member
    Joined: 21-Oct-2006
    Posts: 95
    From: Germany

    @vidarh

    AmigaOS needs only to be stable and secure (memory protection would be nice but should be possible) and must have a good Linux emulation (MSwindows emulation would be nice too) - that's nearly all for starters. Well, a native office environment (firefox, mail, openoffice, ...) would be nice too.

    The performance of the X1000 and the PWRficient PA6T should suffice for most applications in office, industry, military and so on - even many cool games are possible (you don't really need zillions of triangles and every bit of dust calculated and individually animated).

    The price of the X1000 may be high - let it be 2000 - but some hardcore gamers, hifi-freaks, etc. pay more (though not for the X1000). In mass production the X1000 can be as cheap as any PC.

    The advantage of AmigaOS is that it's much smaller than MSwindows and therefore (potential) faster, less power consumptive, less bug-infested, more usable for small devices and real-time computing.

    I see the chance for AmigaOS to kill MSwindows - one (the EU) must only want.

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    Jupp3 
    Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
    Posted on 18-Apr-2011 9:22:36
    #335 ]
    Super Member
    Joined: 22-Feb-2007
    Posts: 1202
    From: Unknown

    @-pekr-

    Quote:

    x86 would bring-in much more old Amiga users, than X1000 will ever bring

    Yes, probably even more than a much more straightforward PPC Mac port would.

    Quote:

    Go ARM! Definitely! Here's small summary:

    # Not an x86, not mainstream - you can build your HW yourself, or you can use some of existing designs.

    I beg to differ. It's a very mainstream CPU - even more so than X86 (just think of all the mobile phones around the world)

    However, it most definitely isn't mainstream desktop CPU, which is probably what you meant.

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    OlafS25 
    Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
    Posted on 18-Apr-2011 9:27:09
    #336 ]
    Elite Member
    Joined: 12-May-2010
    Posts: 5097
    From: Unknown

    @vidarh

    perhaps I see something the wrong way but...

    I can remember when MS-DOS was regarded as professional, not because of its fantastic features (the famous prompt and green screen :) ), but because of the available software. And that also was the reason (in my view) of the failure of Beos and OS/2 (not the hardware). So I think even if there would be Memory Protection and support of SMP, there would still be no new software. Why should any company write new games and applications for a few hundred users? The Natami (at least) has the advantage that there are compilers available that you can start with and you can take the old source code and improve it. So it would be more important to show a path that has (at least) the potential for growth of the user base. A perspective for the future.

    I say Software decides, not a few features of the OS

    Last edited by OlafS25 on 18-Apr-2011 at 09:35 AM.
    Last edited by OlafS25 on 18-Apr-2011 at 09:30 AM.

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    DAX 
    Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
    Posted on 18-Apr-2011 9:30:58
    #337 ]
    Elite Member
    Joined: 30-Sep-2009
    Posts: 2790
    From: Italy

    About PPC future and next (after X1000) CPU to use, forget the QorlQ 40x0 or even the 50x0 series.

    Why?

    Simply put our next CPU is the Altivec equipped PA6T and by the time a new machine will be needed (2 years after the X1000 launch, or more) the next gen QorlQ CPUs will be already available, check THIS for a glimpse.

    They might make up to 8 cores variants and judjing from the past/roadmap the maximum Mhz count will rise yet again (probably to 3.0Ghz).
    Soon AmigaOS will have Gallium and by that time (not now) Gallium will have OpenCL (http://cgit.freedesktop.org/mesa/clover/), who knows maybe even interesting NG X-cores will be out.

    Of course it all depends on how things turn out today, if the X1000 shows promise to its investors there might be more money on the table in the future, otherwise there will be not.

    Still, with the potential of a highly clocked Altivec equipped 8 core CPU (60x0?), OpenCL enabled Gallium, Powerful GPUs and even possible clusters of NG x-cores, if the money will be there to make such a system, I don't think we will be lamenting any lack of perfomance.

    As for the price, it will depend on the production scale and how much money investors will bring to the table.

    _________________
    SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
    Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
    AmigaCD 32

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    -pekr- 
    Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
    Posted on 18-Apr-2011 9:31:14
    #338 ]
    Member
    Joined: 29-May-2007
    Posts: 98
    From: Unknown

    @pavlor

    Yes, I am not an OS coder, but as for the IT manager - please give me the price of porting effort vs the price of X1000 development plus an OS adaptation. And as the X1000 CPU is EOL anyway, please give me also the price of next OS adaptation needed for other CPU, whatever the choise you make It would surely be interesting to compare those two business plans.

    As for the X1000, and for how long its development takes, it would be interesting to know the final price of the projects, and what is the project estimated ROI.

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    pavlor 
    Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
    Posted on 18-Apr-2011 9:35:10
    #339 ]
    Elite Member
    Joined: 10-Jul-2005
    Posts: 8486
    From: Unknown

    @Arko

    Quote:
    AmigaOS could have competed with Win3.11 (when it would had RTG support and came together with more professional hardware)


    I don´t consider Windows 3.x as competition.

    It is really interesting how low were expectations for professional OS in the early 90s. I still use Windows 3.1 regulary (I wrote most of my school work on my 486SX notebook), but it has severe limitations (eg. 8+3 file names ).

    It is clear that OS is not important, applications are what matters.

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    DAX 
    Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
    Posted on 18-Apr-2011 9:36:30
    #340 ]
    Elite Member
    Joined: 30-Sep-2009
    Posts: 2790
    From: Italy

    @KingKong
    I see you mean good, and those opposing you are always leaving out an important part of what you say: you say (or imply) billions will be invested so that with a ton of programmers the OS will evolve fast, and with large scale production a new AmigaOne could be competitively priced.

    I don't think anyone here can argue that billions could do exactly that, it would be interesting to understand where to find the billionair company/investors that would put that kind of money on the table

    _________________
    SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
    Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
    AmigaCD 32

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