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      /  Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
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pavlor 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 7:24:15
#561 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8414
From: Unknown

@redrumloa

Welcome back!

Wow, that paper is from pre-Amino time. Not much changed since then in terms of missed deadlines.

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pavlor 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 7:32:24
#562 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8414
From: Unknown

@hazydave


Quote:
I for one would be quite interested in seeing the PA6T performance 100x or more the speed of a PPC970.


DAX only misintepreted one of the benchmarks (source code for PA6T was much more optimised). These benchmarks show that performance of PA6T is comparable to 970FX. It was nice CPU in its time (2007/2008) and one of the most powerful (maybe the best) PowerPC CPUs even today.

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hazydave 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 7:38:16
#563 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Sep-2004
Posts: 65
From: Unknown

@KingKong

Quote:

Interesting presentations, thanks. These show that the PA6T is very usable for military, industry, office and of cource home-PC.


I'm somewhat in agreement. As I mention, even the QorIQ chips are ever-so-slightly faster per core than a modern ARM (at least until the A15 is out), and that may fast enough for some kinds of home uses. It's not a high end gamer's CPU, and it's not for people doing the modern version of the Amiga's classic strengths in multimedia work. But just look at home much computing folks are getting done on iPads and other tablets these days.

Quote:

How much faster are current CPU? AmigaOS can easily regain factor 2-3 and even more in comparison to MSwindows (just guessing, ask the AmigaOS-profis).


Not really, when you actually need the performance. But some of it's just psychological, anyway. Like your desktop performance. Windows has some amazingly bad ideas still in it, which do tend to make things clunky. I have a Tegra 2 tablet running Android, and it's plenty fast for the stuff it's doing, based on dual 1GHz ARM Cortex A9s. The average Intel Atom is about as fast as the A9. Most netbooks are running 1.6GHz or faster, and at least some are dual core. And yet, they crawl under many Windows applications. And much of that crawling is just user impatience for the OS getting around to them.

Intuition does all kinds of magic to speed up the user interface in very effective ways.

Usability, clear design, endurance (works still in 10 years), security/stability, ... such things are much more important than some percent extra performance. One single bug (in hardware or software) can null the best performance.

Quote:

BTW: be careful of too small structures (65 nm is fine, below 45 nm it may become too risky) - only guessing ... what does hazydave think?


I think the move to 32 and 28nm is going along just dandy. It's not quite to the many fabless companies yet, but Intel and AMD have been shipping in 32nm; Intel since late 2009 I think.

They've had issues with leakage current becoming dominant at some Leff nodes, but so far there have been ways around this and other limits: copper interconnects, stressed silicon, more exotic substrates. And the fact is, at each new node, you have fewer foundries. Commodore was left behind in the 80s due to the costs of new IC process development. Then it was only large companies hitting the new nodes, and now it's either giants, like Intel or Samsung (#1 and #2), or groups of companies working together.

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hazydave 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 7:48:58
#564 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Sep-2004
Posts: 65
From: Unknown

@-pekr-
Quote:

-pekr- wrote:
The problem with the long wait for the new HW is always the same - you are trumped by the next release of the "competition". X1000 has XMOS. I wonder, how will it compare to - Tabula :

http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/19/tabula-scores-108-million-to-bring-cheap-programmable-chips-to/


The XMOS chip is just a network of little CPUs... it's not this wonder chip some people think it is. It may have some interesting applications in embedded control. Maybe. I did a robot architecture once that used lots of small CPUs to "cook" things like sensor data. But that was only practical because these particular CPUs (Cypress PSoC) had programmable macroblocks in both analog and digital, which, while not FPGA-like, definitely let you do things that seems to be much like custom hardware (for example, you could do SPI, UART, or I2C in digital, a DAC, an ADC, an amplifier or comparator, etc. in the same analog blocks).

The Tabula looks, at least from the EE Times article I read, to be an actual FPGA, but with some cycle-by-cycle switching of the presumably SRAM-based control array. That would, in theory, let you very quickly sub one large block for another.

For example, take a modern radio . You often have Wifi and Bluetooth in the same device, and the radio's only half duplex (new ones are MIMO, but still half duplex). So you have BT-TX, BT-RX, Wifi-TX, and Wifi-RX blocks in the design, but only one is actually doing real work at any given time. So this would let you design the radio using only 1/4 the logic blocks, normal amount of SRAM or Flash. But the memory part is cheap in an FPGA, it's the logic blocks that you're paying for.

Anyway, that's my take on it... sounds fairly cool.

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Leo 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 7:53:43
#565 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1552
From: Unknown

Quote:

It's not AmigaOS, it might as well be Windows for all I care.

Have you ever used MorphOS ?

Legal problems apart (I'm not saying it's a good thing, or we should forget about it...), saying MorphOS is not AmigaOS is like saying Haiku is not BeOS, or like saying ReactOS is not Windows, or like saying AmigaOS 4 is not AmigaOS... All have been rewritten from scratch (yeah, that includes OS4, it certainly doesn't use much of AmigaOS'original code...) and are binary compatible with the original. So I don't get it... What does make an OS "AmigaOS" to you ?

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hazydave 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 7:58:39
#566 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Sep-2004
Posts: 65
From: Unknown

@Rassilon
Quote:

Rassilon wrote:
What you said about RAW image loading, h264 decoding etc is very true, however PCs circumvent some of those issues with GPU hardware assists. But as you say a G3 class CPU won't cut it.


Actually, GPU acceleration can be a very big thing. I have a dual core, Core2 laptop at 2.4GHz, which can just barely play back standard 1080/60i video... forget 1080/60p. Even on my six core AMD desktop, 1080/60p playback can go as high as 60% of all CPU, depending on which player you use.

But run a player that uses GPU acceleration (even Windows Media Player, in Windows 7), and the CPU load drops down to about 6%. That's via the DXVA 2.0 API, which isn't general purpose computing like OpenCL, but dedicated specifically to video rendering. And this is with a nVidia 8800GT GPU... hardly the latest thing.

This is also why I loved the idea of AmigaOS for PPC on the PS3. The PS3 CPU is no match for even a cheapish desktop (3.2GHz, but very simple design for a PPC), but between the GPU and the SPEs, the PS3 can decode multiple HD streams.

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hazydave 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 8:02:10
#567 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Sep-2004
Posts: 65
From: Unknown

Quote:

Spectre660 wrote:
@DAX

While we are at it I wonder if SMP support for AmigaOS 4.x will allow us to use a Powerpc PCI card as well as the built in CPU on older machines.


SMP = Symmetric MultiProcessing. The scenario you describe there is inherently asymmetric.

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itix 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 8:07:13
#568 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@hazydave

Quote:

Now, I do not have direct personal knowledge of all MorphOS sources. But back when Phase 5 was working on their "C Exec" and other things, starting to re-create AmigaOS themselves in the mid-1990s, I was working with Andy Finkel at Amiga Technologies. The Phase 5 guys were really after AT to use tome of their stuff (and pay them, natch). Andy did a code review of the C Kernel, and found it was copied from AmigaOS source code. In fact, even the comments were copied, assembler to C.


Didn't Amiga Technologies (Petro Tschytschenko) send AmigaOS source code to random developers over the world? I recall Olaf Barthel received a copy (just like many others) even when he didnt ask one.

I can send you some AROS source code just for fun of it. Should keep you away from Amiga developments forever... shouldnt it?

Quote:

I wouldn't trust anyone involved in Phase 5, or any code that can be traced back to Phase 5.


I would not trust anyone involved with the official Amiga after 1994.

Quote:

They still don't understand clean room development. If you have seen the Amiga source code, you cannot produce a legally separate work-alike.


By your logic AmigaOS dirty because they have used AROS source code. AmigaOS developers have contributed to AROS and AROS developers have contributed to AmigaOS. AROS developers have contributed to MorphOS and MorphOS developers have contributed to AROS.

So by you logic AmigaOS is dirty. In fact at least one ex-MorphOS developer (who didnt commit much AFAIK) contributes to OS4.

Quote:

Maybe MorphOS is clean, maybe not. Maybe no one actually knows. But that's such a transgression, I wouldn't trust anyone involved in Phase 5, or any code that can be traced back to Phase 5.


Maybe you are on drugs, maybe not. You can not prove you are not. Oops!

Quote:

Point in fact -- I just don't care about MorphOS. It's not AmigaOS, it might as well be Windows for all I care.


That is fine. I didnt care about Met@box.

Quote:

If the MorphOS people would like to swear in public that not a line of code or comment is copied from the AmigaOS sources or derived from the Phase 5 code (fruits of a poisonous tree, in legal terms), I will not mention MorphOS again.


I can swear I have not seen any trace of AmigaOS source code or comments in MorphOS code. But then I only have an access to parts of MorphOS I'm developing. I have seen AROS source code and comments in the source (localization stuff for example).

On the other hand I developed closed source Multiview 2 for MorphOS seeing AROS implementation of Multiview first (which was part of MorphOS 1.x). Does it fall under APL now? I can assure it does not contain AROS comments or AROS code but I wont let non-MorphOS developers review it. If someone wont like it, too bad. I dont care.

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itix 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 8:12:54
#569 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@hazydave

Quote:

But back when Phase 5 was working on their "C Exec" and other things, starting to re-create AmigaOS themselves in the mid-1990s, I was working with Andy Finkel at Amiga Technologies. The Phase 5 guys were really after AT to use tome of their stuff (and pay them, natch).


I can relate to your angryness. To quote famous Benjamin Hermans, if you paid 5 million dollars for something, would you accept other people running off with your IP without putting up a fight?

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hazydave 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 8:16:40
#570 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Sep-2004
Posts: 65
From: Unknown

Quote:

Spectre660 wrote:
Everyone relax and look at the world wide OS market share numbers.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8


Interesting, but I'm skeptical. For example, what's the aggregation? Well... I asked it to give me "this year". And as I kind of expected, it gave me just over 5% for MacOS, which is more or less where Apple's been hovering, world-wide, for some time now.

But they put iOS at 1.95%. Now, Apple sells 3-5 million Macs in a quarter, depending on the quarter. 4Q2010, they sold 14 million iPhones... that's more than all the Macs they sold in 2010, in just one quarter. And even more Android devices were sold, worldwide, in 4Q2010. Android also outsold iPhone first two quarters of 2010.

So really, there's something not quite kosher about this chart, if the time frame function actually works.

(Fixed a quote that messed up the layout /tomazkid )

Last edited by tomazkid on 22-Apr-2011 at 11:52 PM.

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gregthecanuck 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 8:44:59
#571 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 771
From: Vancouver, Canada

@Hammer

Quote:

E7-8870 was launched in the month April i.e. in Q2 2011 not Q1 2011 results.

I wasn't commenting on the E7-8870 and its relation to Qx results. I was simply pointing out that Intel hasn't been sharpening its pencil at all recently. No decent competition = high gross margins.

But that is an amazing chip - 30MB cache! Getting close to Power7 scale oomph.

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 9:54:45
#572 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@hazydave
Of course, I don't think the PA6T is a monstrous CPU by todays standards (although considering AmigaOS runs quite well on my weak PPC unit, I would guess it will rock on that thing) but BEFORE you invest the needed capital for high volume production (low prices+good performance included) you need something appealing to put there, a significantly better AmigaOS.
When they decided to do the X1000 they sampled CPUs and consulted with all AOS developers and beta testers (many of which are also developers of AOS software) and considering their roadmap (what they want to add to AOS in the next major commercial release) the PA6T was the best option for a PPC machine whose main intent is to provide a competent platform for developers to work on, while still resembling as close as possible future CPUs.
Other options were either single core and low clocked, or were 32-bit only with no altivec.
The second target user for the machine (since they are making this expensive low volume computer) will be the AOS4 power user or enthusiast, BUT selling it to Average Joe was never the idea because AOS in the end cannot appeal even to ex-amigans if it doesn't grow in many aspects.

If this project goes well (they sell the finite number of machines in a not so long period and evolve AmigaOS as intended) the next project will take place.

How can the next project be both powerful and decently priced?

last year intel announced they will enter the high-end side of the embedded market with their i5 and i7 CPUs actually bringing desktop performance in LINK

To this announcement 6 months later FreeScale responded with THIS

They might make up to 8 cores variants and judjing from the past/roadmap the maximum Mhz count will rise yet again (probably up to 3.0Ghz), not to mention a new e6000 core might be used (we already know the Altivec unit is a new and improved one).

OpenCL is a future possibility too for Amiga, and coupled with a CPU of the above class (which might provide desktop perfomance) the lack of performance might not be a problem any longer.

As for the price the harsh competition with intel is expected to bring prices down. Free-scale is already cheaper than PA6T anyway (although at the moment they don't offer a CPU that is both 64-Bit and altivec equipped), but it'll get even cheaper hopefully, this time offering CPUs far more powerful than PA6T (and thus making the possibility of a more powerful and less priced X2000 a reality).

Due to piracy Hyperion will never sell the os for generic X86 mobos anyway, and they would go the Apple route, with worse prices of course, so x86 will never mean "cheap" for AmigaOS.
It would only mean another 3 years of wait for an "X86 AOS" that's exactly as we see it today.

Hyperion will better use its development time for modernizing the OS, an "Apple priced" (1295 including LCD monitor maybe?) and powerful PPC machine can be made out of future FreeScale chips. Leave the 5020 or earlier models alone, they are not interesting for us, what will be interesting to see will be the new ones that will come out from the battle with intel.
Add OpenCL to the mix and we're set (join back in then!! ).

Last edited by DAX on 21-Apr-2011 at 10:11 AM.
Last edited by DAX on 21-Apr-2011 at 10:05 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 10:48:59
#573 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@gregthecanuck

Quote:

gregthecanuck wrote:
@Hammer

Quote:

E7-8870 was launched in the month April i.e. in Q2 2011 not Q1 2011 results.

I wasn't commenting on the E7-8870 and its relation to Qx results. I was simply pointing out that Intel hasn't been sharpening its pencil at all recently. No decent competition = high gross margins.

But that is an amazing chip - 30MB cache! Getting close to Power7 scale oomph.

If you read http://techreport.com/discussions.x/20803

"while Atom CPU and chipset revenue climbed by 4% compared to last year"

Q1 2011's gross margin fell to 61% from Q4 2010's 67.5%

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 11:09:52
#574 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@DAX

Quote:

last year intel announced they will enter the high-end side of the embedded market with their i5 and i7 CPUs actually bringing desktop performance in LINK

On the mobile space, Intel replaced the 1st gen Core i5/i7s e.g. Intel Core i7-2657M Processor (4M Cache, 1.60 GHz) which has 17 watts max TDP.

Quote:

To this announcement 6 months later FreeScale responded with THIS

Intel Sandybridge's AVX SIMD is 256bit wide and it has IGP rivaling AMD Radeon HD 5450.

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Arko 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 11:10:43
#575 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@hazydave

Quote:

hazydave wrote:

They still don't understand clean room development. If you have seen the Amiga source code, you cannot produce a legally separate work-alike. So any copied comments are absolute proof that the code is dirty. And they're not rejecting my claim, if you go back into those linked documents, that the comments were copied.


@Itix @hazydave
That's a good description about "clean room development" IMR the laws in the US and the EU are quite different. In the US you have to do a clean room development. The laws in the EU are different, as long as you don't copy the code nearly everything is legal. Stealing code in the EU means you have stolen a document, it doesn't matter what kind of document it was. If it comes to court case someone has to prove the code was stolen.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 11:34:12
#576 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@hazydave

Quote:

hazydave wrote:
@Rassilon
Quote:

Rassilon wrote:
What you said about RAW image loading, h264 decoding etc is very true, however PCs circumvent some of those issues with GPU hardware assists. But as you say a G3 class CPU won't cut it.


Actually, GPU acceleration can be a very big thing. I have a dual core, Core2 laptop at 2.4GHz, which can just barely play back standard 1080/60i video... forget 1080/60p. Even on my six core AMD desktop, 1080/60p playback can go as high as 60% of all CPU, depending on which player you use.

But run a player that uses GPU acceleration (even Windows Media Player, in Windows 7), and the CPU load drops down to about 6%. That's via the DXVA 2.0 API, which isn't general purpose computing like OpenCL, but dedicated specifically to video rendering. And this is with a nVidia 8800GT GPU... hardly the latest thing.

This is also why I loved the idea of AmigaOS for PPC on the PS3. The PS3 CPU is no match for even a cheapish desktop (3.2GHz, but very simple design for a PPC), but between the GPU and the SPEs, the PS3 can decode multiple HD streams.

STI CELL vs Intel Core i7

From http://forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-109002.html

"under XMB, they managed to decode FullHD H264 clip up to 50Mbps with only 3 SPEs."

Toshiba's SPE based solution includes H264 decode/encode hardware.

From http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=157701

"The Cell is a pretty slow CPU. It takes roughly 2.5 cores (out of 8) to do realtime 1080p H.264 decoding with a highly optimized decoder. A fast i7 can do that with about ~0.4 cores (out of 4 or 6)."

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Apr-2011 at 11:39 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Apr-2011 at 11:38 AM.

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 11:35:27
#577 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Hammer
A QorlQ P60x0 + , say, a Radeon HD 5870, would be several orders of magnitude faster than an Xbox 360, and I'm sure you've seen how good Gears of War 2 looks there. THE Problem is, even though you could probably run gears even on the X1000+HD4890 (let alone a potential successor) the chances for such a complex game to surface on Amiga are nill.
We'll be lucky to get Doom3 and by the time an eventual X2000 comes out, we might (maybe) hope for Quake4, which means that the Amigas available will be several orders of magnitude faster than what's needed for those.

If you are a follower and user of the bleeding edge advancements (as I know you are) than you have no place for MacOS or Linux either (the only option for you is Microsoft Windows), because when you have such gear you also need software that fully uses it.
MacOS and Linux don't have games using the latest DX11 tech, and professional software that uses certain new features is only available for Windows.
Take the latest Composite from Autodesk, it's the only software using AVX for example.

However there is still people that wants to use Amiga, Macs or Linux, so I hope you are not trying to convince all the above crowds to scrap their favorite platforms and move to Windows, it would be a waste of time...

Last edited by DAX on 21-Apr-2011 at 11:37 AM.

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Fransexy 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 11:43:03
#578 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2316
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@Hammer

Hammer the wikipedia boy

Tired of your raw data and even often irrelevant

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 11:45:24
#579 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1252
From: CRO

am I the only one that is seeing only 28 pages of this thread from the homepage and getting 29 when in the thread? Also, the formatting is off in the last few posts.

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 21-Apr-2011 11:51:53
#580 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@DAX

Quote:

A QorlQ P60x0 + , say, a Radeon HD 5870, would be several orders of magnitude faster than an Xbox 360, and I'm sure you've seen how good Gears of War 2 looks there. THE Problem is, even though you could probably run gears even on the X1000+HD4890 (let alone a potential successor) the chances for such a complex game to surface on Amiga are nill.

That configuration would be expensive i.e. the die size of Xbox 360 Slim’s XCGPU is about 169mm^2. AMD's Llano APU die size is roughly 170mm^2.

Anyway, Gears of War 2 runs on Unreal Engine 3.x.

Do you think Nintendo's Wii 2 has HD 4870 level GPU?

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