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DC_Edge 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 7-Dec-2012 13:16:09
#21 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Oct-2003
Posts: 190
From: France

@gonegahgah
Quote:
I'm working on making the VP compiler even more outstanding than it already is in my opinion.


you have the source code?
I must admit I haven't touched a lot vp code (just at the time, I was pissed of writing qwerty on an azerty keybord, I wrote an azerty mapper with some explanations of a guy from TAO, that was the only time I started to write vp code, maybe the compiler source were somewhere in the tao trees, neither looked at it, C was the main language)

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gonegahgah 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 7-Dec-2012 15:58:53
#22 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2008
Posts: 148
From: Australia

@DC_Edge

I'm pleased to meet someone else who has coded in intent. I'm fairly sure a lot of coders of intent would have looked at VP as being low level and used the C instead as you mainly did. I have to say myself that VP is incredibly powerful and I would personally believe that it deserves greater recognition and usage than other run-of-the-mill assemblers.

There are things I will be changing. One of those things is case-sensitivity. I will be making it case sensitive which it isn't at the moment. To me only languages used by users should be case insensitive. Anything that is used only by real programmers should always be case sensitive. This allows greater differentiation between elements.

I don't have the source code for the compiler. As much work as was probably put into the source code originally I really wouldn't be interested in going through it or trying to modify it. Modifying the existing code would be a lot of hard work to achieve the improvements I wish to add. The only thing that would interest me would be the compiler optimisation code to see what optimisations are done.

I'm taking a completely different and new approach which will make writing the compiler a piece of cake once I have this new approach up and running. I have already worked out this new approach and just have to code it as my next step which I plan to do as my next project at the early beginning of next year.

The main thing I'm interested in is the behaviour of the compiler. I've studied that minutely to see what it currently does and have worked hard at working out how to add modifications that will gel together nicely and make the language even more generalised.

As an example, VP currently has a .remacro command which goes mostly unused because it requires rewriting the entire macro. I'll be adding multi-level macros that automatically use the last iteration of the macro inside the new macro and will allow multiple iterations to exist. For example, if you wanted to add functionality to the printf command you could do so easily. Here is an example:

.re .macro printf
__.if %N>1 & ?printstr(%1)
____.if ?printstr(%2)
______.recur printf #{%1{2,%1{}-1}%2{2,%2{}-1}},.mjoin(3) ; recursively call
______.mexit
____.endif
__.endif
__printf .mjoin(1) ; prior version call
.endm


The purpose of the above example macro is to allow me to have multiple strings.
eg. printf "Hello",' world'," number %d of",' %e\n',iWorldNbr
This might output: Hello world number 3 of 7

I specifically have the .recur command when a macro is to call itself.
Where a macro calls it's previous version you just call it as it is.
I did it this way because upgrading a command is more the purpose of this...
and I like to clearly show when a recursive call is deliberately being made.

The .re tells the compiler that you know you are redoing something otherwise it generates the normal error message. You can also use it in cases like .re .define MYDEF definition to allow intentional redefinition without error messages.

Providing a means for extending commands this way removes the need to have to duplicate the original functionality of the command.

VP is a highly growable language already but I am looking to make it completely growable.

Last edited by gonegahgah on 07-Dec-2012 at 04:04 PM.

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Bugala 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 7-Dec-2012 16:56:12
#23 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2007
Posts: 649
From: Finland

@What Happened to AmigaAnywhere


First of all, this is worse kinf of message possible. I am completely speculating wihtout any real knowledge and I am talking of things I only faintly recall, which means that I might even remember everything wrong.


But my guess is that the fall of AmigaAnywhere started with last Big Amiga Magazines ceasing to exists. Next big blow proapbly came from the coupon, when it seemed to me they were expecting at least minimum of 10 000 sold coupons and were even positively thinking of 100 000 sold coupons, when reality I think was bit over 1 000.

I believe they were calculating on convincing developers and hardware makers with the amount of coupons that had been sold, and in the end it provided the exact opposite.

After that came the first problems with AmigaOS itself when Amiga Inc (or whatever it was then) couldnt get the source for 3.5 and 3.9 from the company that they had contracted to make it. It had also been (i think it was) Hyperions estimate that making AmigaOS4 for PPC would take only couple of month. But I suppose idea was with the source code, and that it had basically been pretty close to AmigaOS3.9, except it would have ran on PPC, and not the (much better) AOS4 that we now have.

Then (was it) Eyetech stopped making Amiga Hardware and all and at that point the idea of getting anywhere through the Amiga Road was proapbly pretty much gone.

For if i correctly remember the original AmigaOS roadmap was talking that AOS5 would merge AmigaAnywhere and AOS.

By guess I would say that the last real chance for AmigaAnywhere was when it was considered for some cellphone as operating system, It was some very big brand. Million phones or seomthing, but in the end they went on to choose different operating system for the phone, and after that i guess there both havent been ay real opportunities for AmigaAnywhere, nor have it necessarily made much sense after that either.

However, I think they (amiga inc.) somewhere, and not even long ago, mentioned something about AmigaAnywhere 2. I think it was maybe that the BlackBerry Amiga emulator is running under AmigaAnywhere 2 or soemthing like that.

So if i do remember right, it would seem like they have developed it further, but propably for some specific need anymore, like emulating purposes to maybe expand their legal emulated game sales to other places too, like maybe iOS and Android.

Anyway, as i said, This is all from memory, and it all might be wrong, and everything is just speculation.

Just my guess that basically the great version of AmigaAnywhere got downed by series of blows and now it is just the not so great anymore AmigaAnywhere 2.

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Chris_Y 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 7-Dec-2012 23:57:52
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3203
From: Beds, UK

@gonegahgah

I liked the way you could tell VP the most likely branch of execution in if statements, to help it avoid cache flushes.

Anyway, I'm not sure there is much merit in resurrecting a compiler for a virtual pocessor environment nobody can run, unless they already have it.

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gonegahgah 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 8-Dec-2012 0:11:06
#25 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2008
Posts: 148
From: Australia

@Bugala

The following web site provides what is said to be a time line and feature list back then put together by I don't know who:
http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/amigaosdev1.html

In hindsight it looks overly ambitious.

They seemed to have been in touch with a number of people to work on different ideas so it would have been interesting to see how integration of the whole would even have been achieved had the pieces been able to be implemented. I would proffer that the project was - for some parts - dependent on a loose unconnected group getting some of the things done; hopefully in a useable fashion.

Not-withstanding that, I think that Taos was one of the more interesting platforms on which to base a new system.
I did like QNX which was a wonderfully designed true micro-kernel but personally I'm glad that they brought Taos into my life instead.

As I say, its not perfect and needs some redoing to make it what I would regard as a minimum underlying platform. But, I think it has that potential with a bit of rethinking.

I will give an example. Probably through their association with Amiga, Tao introduced what I would describe as an amalgamation of their object model somewhat loosely with the Amiga BOOPSI idea. (Please note that this was completely separate from the Amiga Component Model idea).

The problem with their old objects was that the superclasses had fixed 'struct' or 'record' sizes.
Better object models allow for superclasses to have their 'record' size changed at a later time without needing to recompile any code that uses the subclasses.

They called the new way sys_obj's. I would have to say they did a great job of adding this feature and it is somewhat a testament to the system they created and the thinkers they had that it was possible.

The only problem with most - if not all - object models is the problem of parallel inheritance. It is difficult (or often impossible) to inherit something from two bass classes as once.

I noticed this in some of their files where they had developed a cludge to get the functionality of a screen graphics bass object into another one. I call their solution a cludge because it was a one shot approach. That is you couldn't then add the functionality of another bass class in parallel using the process to the same oveall class. Cludges to me are very ugly and I avoid them like the plague. I imagine it was the quick solution at the time.

Interesting enough I wrote something I called Adapted Classes to help enable the ability to get parallel inheritance in Amiga BOOPSI and I had passed the code along to Fleecy. It was then interesting to see that this idea - a work-in-progress - was being implemented in the intent 1.5 (that Francis kindly sent to me) much later on; except that theirs was being called Dynamic Classes. To my mind I took this to indicate that there was at least co-operation going on between the two companies; which I'm sure some people doubted.

I could understand their interest in my more generalised approach, as I say, what they presently used was an ugly cludge. Perhaps they were working towards better generalising their screen graphics code with this approach.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I've since moved on from this and developed a completely new object model of my own that eats parallel inheritance for breakfast.

But, as I say, it would have been interesting to see how Amiga would have even brought all the pieces together. The ACM, as I understood things, was supposed to underpin everything eventually but I never saw any code actually written with it.

Instead I believe the other areas were being developed separately and the hope probably was to one day convert them to Amiga Components. There were lots of expressions in announcements of the near readiness of the ACM but it never actually seemed to eventuate expect possibly as the Advance Foundation Classes that can be found at: http://afc.sourceforge.net/

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gonegahgah 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 8-Dec-2012 0:17:07
#26 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2008
Posts: 148
From: Australia

@Chris_Y

I liked that as well. I would agree that there is no merit in resurrecting a compiler for a dead environment if that is all I am intending. But it's not.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 8-Dec-2012 11:25:00
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@KimmoK

Well AREXX is kind of simplistic typed basic variant, and as I remember it handle all variables as undefined type, living it up Arexx interpreter to determent what to do, I did not like that when as was larning it, because it results where not always what I expected, and also it script language is slow.

Phyton is stead to be a nice language to learn if your interested in C coding.

Ruby is object oriented language, just like C++, but is pretty strong at dealing whit tables, strings, arrays and hachs, hashs was some thing new fore me, when I learn the language, thing of it as tag list but, but its not a array, the language also has regular expressions, that can be really useful validate if strings are formated correctly, or match or check of strings whit in an other string.

Lua is basically script version of C.

I have used Lua once, Phyton I have not used, Phyton comes whit AmigaOS now and it well supported, Lua comes whit MorphOS and is well supported there.

Lua, Phyton is availabile on all platforms.
SHEEP is not, and don't see the big advantage over anything else.

Its my understanding that Perl is horrible language, whats wrong whit it?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 8-Dec-2012 11:38:51
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@gonegahgah

Quote:
it allows more than a single value to be returned by a coded function in such a straight forward manner without having to 'hack' work-a-rounds.

Well often when you have many variables that go hand in hand it natural to create a struct whit variables and return that instead, or return a array, but you need to allocate memory for it, I guess this is what you mean by work-a-rounds, but yes it less efficient then lets say putting it on the stack.

An other method often used is put the output fields in the input fields as pointers, and is most likely the most correct way to deal whit it in C, even if not as intuitive.

Quote:
qcall /mystuff/myapp/getmouse,(-:iMouseX,iMouseY)

its hard to see the difference between a , and :. and its not that different from C

mystuff::myapp::getmouse(&iMouseX,&iMouseY) ;

(Assuming mystuff and myapp is namespaces.)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Dec-2012 at 11:47 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Dec-2012 at 11:45 AM.

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gonegahgah 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 8-Dec-2012 13:03:10
#29 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2008
Posts: 148
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

I like in LUA where they have oldfunc = myfunc which is similar to what I'm doing but I would prefer my approach of reusing the same name so that you don't have to make up names to store the old function. A new person looking at mine would initially be confused but upon explanation it would be easy to understand and follow I think.

The other purpose of the LUA approach might be so that you can continue to use the old function elsewhere but I don't really see that occurring otherwise you would just write a newly named function in the first place.

You are right, they are the more natural approach to getting more than one return using C but I must admit that I would still prefer having the outputs distinctly separate from the inputs which the ':' approach encourages. You could still bypass this of course and do it like you've shown in VP also but you don't need to so you wouldn't be likely to. I like the notion of having the inputs first (or I call them ents) and having the return values at the end. To me it is just tidier and I prefer tidier solutions over what I see as yucky solutions.

Last edited by gonegahgah on 08-Dec-2012 at 01:04 PM.

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ChrisH 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 8-Dec-2012 13:38:42
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@gonegahgah Quote:
I would agree that there is no merit in resurrecting a compiler for a dead environment if that is all I am intending. But it's not.

A free reimplementation of Tao/Intent...?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 8-Dec-2012 18:56:53
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@gonegahgah

Well the namespaces (interfaces) are found .library system that AmigaOS4 uses, but it can be bit of hazel open libraries that way, but if there was a language to handled that might be handy.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Dec-2012 at 06:57 PM.

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Chris_Y 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 8-Dec-2012 20:51:00
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3203
From: Beds, UK

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Its my understanding that Perl is horrible language, whats wrong whit it?


Too much of this sort of nonsense:
s/\$(\w+)/${$1}/g;

That's an actual line taken from one of my scripts. The return value ends up in $_. There are much worse examples.

Of course it doesn't have to all look like that, and on the whole it's fairly sane. I like the feature that lets arrays be indexed with letters/strings instead of numbers. I use that a lot.

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gonegahgah 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 8-Dec-2012 21:49:33
#33 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2008
Posts: 148
From: Australia

@ChrisH

It's more to do with producing new mechanisms that are desirable in and of themselves as the initial goals. The first one is the new and different object model. This grew from what I understood of the Amiga Component Model idea initially but looks so dissimilar to it now as to be a completely unique product. The second is a new language for writing languages. The third is a re-implementation of the VP compiler using the second. Then there are further mechanisms to develop after that that I have worked or am working out.

One of the post-compiler mechanisms I'm looking to create was actually born out of a request put to me by Fleecy. Initially I couldn't see how it would be done but I nutted out a solution that should be very responsive.

Everything I'm coding is meant to address some problem that I see exists with computers now. I see each new mechanism as useful in themselves.

I will want to look at and will also later further want to look at reimplementing some of the Tao system. Initially I will primarily want to look at modifying the tool loader once I get the VP compiler done. At the moment it allows a table to exist in the tool header that contains things they call atoms, named data areas, and tools. For the tools they allow back naming so that you can extend upon a common directory.

For my component model I wish to add the ability to have something I'll call - for the sake of calling it something - through naming. This will make the tool headers more compact then. At the moment I have developed a work-a-round which works fine but it is a little untidy. I like tidier implementations. Again it is a testament to the system itself that I was able to implement my object model the way that I have at all.

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gonegahgah 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 8-Dec-2012 21:55:26
#34 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2008
Posts: 148
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

I'm not 100% sure what you're meaning but I do like the way Tao has generalised its tool system. You no longer have to have libraries at all using VP and can just plonk the tools in the same directory if you wish to group them.

The present downside for VP is that it uses absolute paths. It does not have the Amiga assigned directories such as LIBS:.

That does need to be fixed to a degree and there are certainly other things about the Tao system that I feel need to be reimplemented in a better fashion; don't get me wrong.

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cdimauro 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 9-Dec-2012 8:59:48
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga
Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
Phyton is stead to be a nice language to learn if your interested in C coding.

Python is a wonderful language, but fortunately it's far away from C.
Quote:
Ruby is object oriented language, just like C++,

Python too: everything is an object in Python.
Quote:
but is pretty strong at dealing whit tables, strings, arrays and hachs, hashs was some thing new fore me, when I learn the language, thing of it as tag list but, but its not a array, the language also has regular expressions, that can be really useful validate if strings are formated correctly, or match or check of strings whit in an other string.

Watch out that Ruby has some "default behaviors", similar to Perl or Javascript, that can propagate mistakes and make headaches.
Quote:
Lua is basically script version of C.

No, it's quite different. Fortunately.
Quote:
I have used Lua once, Phyton I have not used, Phyton comes whit AmigaOS now and it well supported, Lua comes whit MorphOS and is well supported there.

Lua, Phyton is availabile on all platforms.
SHEEP is not, and don't see the big advantage over anything else.

Right. There are already mainstream high-level languages that are well supported. Pick one of them, instead of writing another one.

@gonegahgah: do you really need a new language?
Quote:
Its my understanding that Perl is horrible language, whats wrong whit it?

“Python is executable pseudocode. Perl is executable line noise.”

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gonegahgah 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 9-Dec-2012 12:48:24
#36 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2008
Posts: 148
From: Australia

@cdimauro

"Do you really need a new language?"

I do. One is to allow for the rapid development and modification of other languages. The other language is part of the Tao system which I want to improve upon.

@thread

Another interesting comparison of the VP language is its way of using pointers. This is an area that can be confusing at times in the C language; even to experienced programmers.

VP uses []s to indicate when you are accessing the contents of memory.

So a *pValue in C is instead done as [pValue] in VP.
Further pData.Value in C is instead done as [pData.Value] in VP
and *pData.Value in C is instead done as [[pData.Value]] in VP.
The &pData.Value in C is simply done as pData.Value in VP.

To my mind these are simpler and more visually self-explanatory and consistent.

I have to correct something I said earlier. There is no equivalent to &iValue in VP.
So you can not pass something like gos myfunc, (&iMouseX,&iMouseY: -) in VP.

But because of the ability of VP to return more than one register from calls I would think that it is not necessary anyway to use this sort of nomenclature. Correct me if you think there would be instances but I've never encountered them when coding in VP. In C there may possibly be situations where it may still be needed outside the example usage given above; but I'm not sure.

In VP if you need to use a struct or record locally then you would just put it on the stack (where C does anyway) and then use a pointer to this. Though with the advent of object models the use of local structures has become less or in many cases not necessary anyway.

I wonder if pointers could have been better designed in C? I think I played with this idea once upon a time and came up with something.
What is the situation for other languages with regards to the ease of use of pointers?

Last edited by gonegahgah on 09-Dec-2012 at 12:50 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 9-Dec-2012 13:13:35
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@gonegahgah

For rapid development of languages you can take a look at ANTLR: http://antlr.org/

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gonegahgah 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 9-Dec-2012 14:16:34
#38 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2008
Posts: 148
From: Australia

@cdimauro

Cool. Thanks for showing this to me. It's not like what I'm making though.
Are there any others? I looked at YACC but it's not the same either.

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Chris_Y 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 9-Dec-2012 14:37:34
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3203
From: Beds, UK

@gonegahgah

Bison? LLVM?

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cdimauro 
Re: What about AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE?
Posted on 9-Dec-2012 15:57:08
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

Quote:

gonegahgah wrote:
@cdimauro

Cool. Thanks for showing this to me. It's not like what I'm making though.
Are there any others? I looked at YACC but it's not the same either.

YACC is very similar to ANTLR, but with the latter you can build lexers, parsers, and AST parsers ("tree walkers") with the same syntax, which is a very good thing.

ANTLR, also, has an excellent tool to design a language syntax: ANTLRWork. It's awesome. Take a look at it: it's a pleasure.

Anyway, can you be more precise on what are your needs/requirements?

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