@IntuitionAmiga

Amithion is an OS running on another OS, which was probably a lot more difficult to do than making an Amiga-like Linux distribution, which only requires 1) an optimized kernel, 2) a streamlined boot process, 3) a lightweight window manager/desktop environment, and 4) an Amiga-like command interpreter/shell.

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@IntuitionAmiga

Quote:

But that doesn't detract from the fact that Krashan's lua.library is the Amiga way of doing things.

Who/what is Krashan? I googled, but couln't find anything...

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@bison

Quote:

bison wrote: @IntuitionAmiga Amithion is an OS running on another OS, which was probably a lot more difficult to do than making an Amiga-like Linux distribution, which only requires 1) an optimized kernel, 2) a streamlined boot process, 3) a lightweight window manager/desktop environment, and 4) an Amiga-like command interpreter/shell.

That's not an Amiga. That's a POSIXy kernel/userland, with some blue icons. With some token things like:

alias copy=cp

Last edited by Aslak3 on 29-Oct-2013 at 08:30 PM.

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@Aslak3

I could tell you a lot about how it is going to work, but I'd better not. Let's just say that the people who implement these functionalities know what they're doing.

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@Arko

Quote:

... It is the same like Linux and Android, iPhone, iPad and embedded devices like BluRay players or the router you are using now.

The difference is that Android, iOS, and the linux kernel in your blueray player are not full "user OSs". They are special purpose OSs. Anything running a Linux kernel is bound by POSIX file schematics, POSIX ways of doing shared memory, the UNIX process/thread model, BSD networking (well AmigaOS has that already but you get the idea). This would all be exposed in any "real" Linux-kernel based desktop OS - it would have to be. Is that a bad thing? Probably not. I agree that the shell is UNIX's strength, and AmigaOS weakness.

Quote:

The kernel is absolute independent from GUI or command shell. Systems like AmigaOS and even WindowsXP might have deeply embedded GUI system but Linux (and BSD) can be tailored in such a way that most people woul not notice any difference (when done right).

GUI shell - possibly. Command shell - probably not. UNIX File semantics are fully exposed on OS X through the shell. Not a bad thing though, again.

If that kind of thing happened it wouldn't be "Amiga" to most folk. Just something that takes the name. Just like what happened with OS X. :)

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@tonyw

Quote:

tonyw wrote: @Aslak3 I could tell you a lot about how it is going to work, but I'd better not. Let's just say that the people who implement these functionalities know what they're doing.

Tease. :) G'on. I'll send you a beer?

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@broadblues

In the MorphOS port, all the Lua modules are real Amiga style shared libraries. Then of course they are loaded to memory once, and used by all Lua interpreter instances, regardless standalone or embedded in applications. Also it is worth mentioning, that lua.library is just 150 kB. Of course MorphOS port of Lua has a module for ARexx port communication, so one can just write scripts in Lua instead of ARexx.

As for shared objects in general - they are supported by AmigaOS 4 in belief that lazy&easy porting will increase the software base. Sure, it will, in terms of numbers. But then majority of these fast ports are rough, break Amiga Style Guide in every possible way and degrade user experience. After adding another 1000 "configure; make" ports to OS4Depot there is still a valid argument: what is the point in run them on AmigaOS4, while on Linux they run much better? In my opinion taking care about quality and uniqueness is the way to go, not just "making porting easier". For now AmigaOS 4 is on the straight way to become some "poor man's Linux wannabe clone", the topic of this thread is just another confirmation of the trend...

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@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote: @Crumb Quote: I would prefer that it used some *BSD kernel. do you think it would be a better solution than mounting arix atop of linux? there is an amiga (68k) bsd maintainer, who also introduced a lot of amiga hardware to bsd support, perhaps he could be moved to work out such a solution given some kind of bounty?

IMHO a microkernel or exokernel (MIT Exokernel?) would be more modular, Amiga-like approaches. QNX kernel was opensourced* ( under a non-GPL non-BSD license) some years ago, perhaps it could serve as inspiration.

NetBSD driver architecture seems to work nicely, runs everywhere and it would be fun and a good performance test to run an hypothethic "Arix" on real Amigas, perhaps using NetBSD rump as a basis to start development.

Imagine AmigaOS had used a closed source monolithic linux-like kernel, we couldn't have had Mediators, Prometheus, G-Rex, Picasso96/CGX... stuff like SetFunction probably wouldn't work. And since we couldn't modify the OS because we wouldn't have the sources everything would have vanished. AmigaOS and these forums wouldn't exist today if a linux-like monolithic kernel had been chosen... even Minix would have been a better idea than Linux. Nowadays linux supports quite a lot of hardware and it may be optimized and relatively fast but given Linus Torvalds childish management and GPL I wouldn't waste my time with it.


@NutsAboutAmiga

That's PC way of thinking, if you don't care about efficiency I wonder why are you still using Amigas.

Last edited by Crumb on 29-Oct-2013 at 09:47 PM.

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@Aslak3

Quote:

That's not an Amiga. That's a POSIXy kernel/userland, with some blue icons. With some token things like: alias copy=cp

If it used a new shell, then there would be no need for aliases such as "copy=cp", since copy would be a built-in.

Not sure what you mean by "blue icons..."

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@broadblues

Quote:

Port of Lua scripting language, well integrated with the system. The interpreter is a system shared library providing all the "C API" of Lua, so applications may use Lua internally. Lua modules are implemented as shared libraries and loaded on-demand. Archive contains "LuaX" (shell based standalone script executor) and "LuaExplorador" (MUI based source level debugger for scripts). MorphOS port of Lua supports ARexx communication with applications. Full documentation and developer material included. Port done by Grzegorz Kraszewski.

It comes as default with MorphOS but you can download the archive with docs etc from here:

http://morphos-files.net/download/Lua

Quote:

Lua Explorador is a MUI based source level debugger for Lua programs running on my port of Lua programming language. It features basic execution control, shows global and local variables, call history and Lua stack contents.

http://krashan.ppa.pl/articles/luaexplorador/

It's very well done and a real credit to Krashan.

edit: Krashan beat me to it. :)

Last edited by IntuitionAmiga on 29-Oct-2013 at 10:04 PM.

@bison

Quote:

Amithion is an OS running on another OS

Amithlon is much more than that. It's an OS using the Linux kernel as a Hardware Abstraction Layer, much like ARIX tbh from what I know of it and not too dissimilar to how MorphOS runs on the Quark microkernel.

@Crumb

Quote:

Quote: @Crumb What is 5Mb of ram when you have 2Gbytes in your system? Nothing @NutsAboutAmiga That's PC way of thinking, if you don't care about efficiency I wonder why are you still using Amigas.

Well yes I know, but I have this irrational love for AmigaOS even if stuck in the middle ages.
Your argument to me sound like lets keep every thing as it was in 1990's because thats Amiga.
You think about mega bytes as I tinked about mega bytes in 1990's 5Mb of 2Gbytes is just 0.24% of memory, most quality photos this days is bigger then 5Mb, today most online PC games are like giga bytes big.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Oct-2013 at 01:34 AM.

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@IntuitionAmiga

>>So far no linux flavour "feels" like AmigaOS.

>http://www.hd-zone.com/amithlon/

Yes I should try to get amithlon running again... (did not find a working .iso years ago).
From what I've heard it very much performs like AmigaOS (but most likely show some differences ... like needing new kernell for every device support).
But surely, it is only a GOOD example of what can be done.

Damn it would be great if the community+BenH+RalphS+McEven+etc. could have been friends and co-operated all the time. (we would have 100 000+ users, I'm sure)


@thread

Neither do I ever want to see a monolithic kernell in AmigaOS.
(I had forgotten the fact that linux can not handle drivers in amiga or microkernell way.)

@64bit
It is pretty mandatory very soon.
example: 2GB is not enough when I want the system to be able to use 2GB of 3D RAM and handle DVD data from RAM disk. (if nothing else can be done in a year or two, then make a "knife" that enables 2GB+2tB for SWAP "partition" in RAM, that would be better than "only" 2GB total.)

@SMP
I know it's not simple. But clever people make it happen anyway.
Lock all legacy stuff to core0 and let future SW use SMP.

@MP
Also for that, even just some protection is better than no protection.
This must be hardest to implement and requires sandboxing.
But we should start to do it.
(I once read that PPC would be better CPU for microkernell than x86. x86 has pretty much required the use of monolithic kernell ... perhaps that "advantage" is gone but is it? (The answer to this lies in the fact that MorphOS runs on PowerPC and not x86 CPUs. It is a problem with the x86 architecture that causes context switches to be computationally expensive. (page9) ))

in full:
Quote:

Microkernel Vs Macro Kernel A common problem encountered in the development of microkernel Operating Systems is speed. This is due to the CPU having to context switch back and forth between the kernel and user processes, context switching is expensive in terms of computing power. The consequence of this has been that many Operating Systems have switched from their original microkernel roots and become closer to a macrokernel by moving functionality into the kernel, i.e. Microsoft moved graphics into the Windows NT kernel, Be moved networking inside, Linux began as a macrokernel so includes everything. This technique provides a speed boost but at the cost of stability and security since different kernel tasks can potentially overwrite one another’s memory. Given the above, one might wonder why Q can be based on a microkernel (strictly speaking it’s only “microkernel like”) and still expected to perform well. The answer to this lies in the fact that MorphOS runs on PowerPC and not x86 CPUs. It is a problem with the x86 architecture that causes context switches to be computationally expensive. Context switching on the PowerPC is in the region of 10 times faster, similar in speed to a subroutine call. This means PowerPC Operating Systems can use a microkernel architecture with all it’s advantages yet without the cost of slow context switches. There are no plans for an x86 version of MorphOS, if this changes there will no doubt be internal changes to accommodate the different processor architecture.

@AOS4 xkernell & two kernell policy
IMO, it's the best new thing for AOS since AOS3.1.
We need to move towards AOS-NG and when we do not have multibillions we most likely can not modernice AOS while keeping all of the legacy.
Too bad that our pyny communtity needs to do it 3+ times. (under the name of AOS + MOS + AROS)
((so my grand childrens might see AOS-NG+ ... if current devs are kept in life support untill then???))

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@KimmoK

Quote:

@thread Neither do I ever want to see a monolithic kernell in AmigaOS. (I had forgotten the fact that linux can not handle drivers in amiga or microkernell way.)

Yes you're right, I scream at the way the kernel handles drivers all the time, while working on a spreadsheet or browsing a website.

Not to mention that the Intuition subsystem, or the draggable screens, or Deluxe Paint - they were notoriously all outcomes of the kernel architecture.

Go on, keep thinking about kernels and drivers..

@resle

I have a lot of "good" but old x86 HW (like a laptop from y2004) that needs me to find special linux kernell (or compile my own) to use it.
I would rather just drag a file to devices folder (or something like that).


btw.... IIRC, there's also "older kernell" version of AROS, why is that?
For some old GPU support?? (linuxlike????)

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- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
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@KimmoK

Quote:

(I once read that PPC would be better CPU for microkernell than x86. x86 has pretty much required the use of monolithic kernell ... perhaps that "advantage" is gone but is it? (The answer to this lies in the fact that MorphOS runs on PowerPC and not x86 CPUs. It is a problem with the x86 architecture that causes context switches to be computationally expensive. (page9) ))

I will speculate now, but most likely it was comparison of Apples with Orages, that is comparison of context switch penalty on single address space OS (like MorphOS), where the MMU is set up once and never heavily changed/updated (which reduces overhead caused by TLB flush drastically) with OS where every single process has separate address space (which forces a MMU's TLB flus by every single context switch). The difference would be, of course, huge in such case.

@resle

it's not a monolithic kernel because drivers are compiled in, but because drivers run in supervisor mode.

Please, stop using the wrong arguments against Linux

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@NutsAboutAmiga

The problem is that every other OS is using modular pieces of code like DLL or .so properly but OS4 is promoting the non shared objects use, modern programs etc tons of megabytes, imagine you open 2 program instances: on Windows, Linux and using proper amiga libraries you just have 1 instance of the libraries, on OS4 with its shared objets you eat twice the ram. Then add some other program that may share or not some of the libraries: OO or libreOffice: your ram will run out much much faster. Python on Amiga is just an example of lack of efficience.

@broadblues:
SAS/C, some libnix scripts and probably other tools allow you to have shared data segments IIRC. You don't need shared objects for that, you can use shared resources too, no need for non shared objects. It may simplify quick'n'dirty ports but that's all.

AmigaOS programs should use AmigaOS shared libraries.

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@olegil

You may have noticed I was being ironic. Or may have not.


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@KimmoK

Check your PM box in 5 minutes. ;)