@Raffaele

Quote:

In the meanwhile I sended a request to Computer History Museum asking them if they could request to Electronic Arts the source code of versions 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 of De Luxe Paint (the original ones made by Dan Silva) for historical purposes.

Yes, better concentrate on those ancient versions. The newer versions (iirc) were made slightly more "system friendly", and can even run (badly) on NG systems. At least that reduces the chances that some crazy developer would start thinking "Well, perhaps we could use some old code..."

And regarding "starting", I don't think this is the first time people ask for this... Or maybe all previous efforts were just public "We* should ask EA to release DPAINT sources!" threads...

*We = "You, not me!"

By the way, whenever you say "We should check the sources to see how it was done" - what exactly do you mean? I can't really think of any features (drawing tools, palette editor etc.) that wouldn't have been done better in many other Amiga gfx programs since then (not even mentioning other platforms). Also many newer programs (f.ex. Brilliance) were noticeably faster. I believe it was less popular only because it was released later. My personal "old" favourites are TVPaint and Photogenics, although you might dislike them as they are too much better than DPaint

They also work on MorphOS and OS4 (I assume, not tried) and I like the original "idea" of Photogenics more than Photoshop.

Of course animation isn't supported in all programs, and haven't seen that "caleidoscope tool" too often (well, that's hardly ever useful, fun for few minutes though, the first time you try it)

@Arko
Quote:

Just look into some tutorials on Youtube they show how people are using modern programs today

I have seen way too many "8-bit graphics tutorials" aka "Let's draw big 24bit pixels!" on youtube

(Of course I don't mean they should torture themselves with DPaint, but rather "get their terminology right", retro-style graphics or whatever)

Last edited by Jupp3 on 30-Mar-2014 at 12:03 AM.
Last edited by Jupp3 on 30-Mar-2014 at 12:01 AM.

@Raffaele

Um, the EA of nowadays shares very little with the Electronic Arts that Dan Silva worked for. I don't know if you're much into modern PC or console gaming, but EA is pretty much universally despised these days for being miserly. I just don't see them releasing anything for free.

That said, the source code for DPaint is most likely going to be mostly 68K hardware-banging assembler, because that's the only way to get decent speed out of a 1980s computer (it didn't help that compilers generally sucked back then). Given the amount of chipset knowledge and just plain hard work involved in figuring out what's going on in the code ("why would they be writing an 8 to bplcon3 here?") and then rewriting it in system-friendly C, I think it would be a better idea to take the manual and use it as a spec to do a rewrite from scratch.

Last edited by CodeSmith on 30-Mar-2014 at 02:28 AM.

@Jupp3

Quote:

Jupp3 wrote: @Raffaele Yes, better concentrate on those ancient versions. The newer versions (iirc) were made slightly more "system friendly", and can even run (badly) on NG systems. At least that reduces the chances that some crazy developer would start thinking "Well, perhaps we could use some old code..."

Ancient versions are the better candidates to being released for free...

Then newer releases are major chanche to be released for a reasnable price thanks to for example a bounty.

Last time (ten years ago if i remember well) someone asked EA how much they want for DPaint sourcecode, EA answered requiring an absurd $huge amount of money.
Nowadays, ten years after, these sources are sure worthing a few cents considering how shrinked our market.

Better making a try of asking it for free before it will all wiped out by obsolescence.

I just made an attempt by starting asking the Museum...

Did anybody else in Amiga scene tried something? never heard of it...

They are good only in making critics, asking for new software from alien platforms, saying dreamres are crazy or destroying from start any attempts and any ideas of revitalizing this platforms.

They are old and dead inside.

Quote:

And regarding "starting", I don't think this is the first time people ask for this... Or maybe all previous efforts were just public "We* should ask EA to release DPAINT sources!" threads... *We = "You, not me!"

I never heard a firm considering seriously mr. Unknown Joe User (that is me, you or anybody else in this thread as alone individual).

They sure will consider a tycoon with money, maybe an entire community if we made a public request collecting all our signatures, or perhaps for example a well respected museum which was capable in the past to obtain MacPaint, and now MS-DOS sources.


Quote:

By the way, whenever you say "We should check the sources to see how it was done" - what exactly do you mean? I can't really think of any features (drawing tools, palette editor etc.) that wouldn't have been done better in many other Amiga gfx programs since then (not even mentioning other platforms). Also many newer programs (f.ex. Brilliance) were noticeably faster. I believe it was less popular only because it was released later. My personal "old" favourites are TVPaint and Photogenics, although you might dislike them as they are too much better than DPaint

Brilliance was never such a great progrem... Full of good features but when I tried using I felt like it was written for a person only and not for public of users. it was written just to accomplish Jim Sachs idea of ease of use.

Quote:

They also work on MorphOS and OS4 (I assume, not tried) and I like the original "idea" of Photogenics more than Photoshop. Of course animation isn't supported in all programs, and haven't seen that "caleidoscope tool" too often (well, that's hardly ever useful, fun for few minutes though, the first time you try it)

I have always seen photogenics as a program just to making some changes to images and photos.
TVPaint is a great piece of software and i am using it on morphOS, but its interface and the way it deals with loading (the most strange load/save interface ever seen on Amiga), the handling of layers, etc. made it sometimes silly obnoxious.

Well it now 3.6 Amiga executable it is free, thanks to its creators, so no complaints, but the fact it is still a product sold for other platforms made literally impossible to obtain source code....

You know... I don't think they will apprecciate that sourcecode of Amiga version could be used 1to create a free open source competitor for their market.

But yes, we could make a try... None was ever shoot just for asking something reasonable (as we say in Italy)...

Last edited by Raffaele on 30-Mar-2014 at 05:48 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 30-Mar-2014 at 06:42 AM.

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@Raffaele

Even if have not heard of people have tried (at least me ). I got permissions for a number of applications and invested a lot of time in it. You do not need permission or help by someone else, just do it . In case of DPaint I think it is a big company and as long as there are not some veterans in management with a big heart for Amiga you will not be successful because new people do not know and (to be honest) do not care. I had this in the case of getting permission of using Wordworth in my distribution (and that was only about getting permission to include the software, not about getting source ocdes). So my advice, not talk about it, do it. Too many people (as you said) are just talking so try to be different there .

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Arko Quote: Just look into some tutorials on Youtube they show how people are using modern programs today, the way they paint pictures is advanced over most things that where possible with PPaint. Just because a few egg heads have made it there life's obsession to get good at Photoshop ...

1. I did not mention Photoshop, there are plenty of others.
2. Less people are using DPaint + PPaint than Photoshop and there are plenty of others.
3. DPaint + PPAint are discontinued, they could not compete with others.


Update:
Included DPaint and PPaint

Last edited by Arko on 31-Mar-2014 at 03:42 PM.
Last edited by Arko on 30-Mar-2014 at 02:01 PM.

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AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@Arko

Quote:

2. Less people are using PPaint than Photoshop and there are plenty of others.

Your right about that, but way is that?

* Part of the problem is lack of Alpha blending.
* The lack of PNG support.
* No layering functions.
* Lack of effects.
* No 32bit/16bit support.

Quote:

, there are plenty of others.

Also notice the difference in the name “Photo” and “Paint”, creative people in marketing is often use none of this programs, they use Adobe Illustrator and Corel draw. There are many programs out there and they do different things.

Finding the right tool for the right job is often half of the job.

Anyway getting Ppaint or Dpaint to modern state is major job, at lest if what it to be as good as other commercial programs.

If there is any interest in professional program people need to invest, its not done in a day or two.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Mar-2014 at 03:10 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Mar-2014 at 02:22 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Mar-2014 at 02:18 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Mar-2014 at 02:17 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Not sure why the discussion got distracted to PPaint by some people when the OP is obsessed with DPaint but...

Quote:

* Part of the problem is lack of Alpha blending.

PPaint supports alpha blending using either s econd brush as alpha map or the alternate environment as alpha map.

Quote:

* The lack of PNG support.

PPaint supported PNG support since the dawn of time (nearly)

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* No layering functions.

True layers make no sense in the context of palettemapped images.

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* Lack of effects.

Actually PPaint has a wide range of imageprocessing effects like Blur emboss et al.

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* No 32bit/16bit support.

Partly true, PPaint has import support, but only saves in palette mapped formats (well and some novel things like Amiga C formats)

Of course SketchBlock a *New* in development application, can do 32bit and deeper!

(Did I plug my software to often? Probably but my point is future applications not past ones!).

Note though when past apps are available, they can be link with new apps via ARexx, for format conversion, usage of colour fonts and other retro features.

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@broadblues

Quote:

PPaint supports alpha blending using either s econd brush as alpha map or the alternate environment as alpha map.

No that's color keying it not the same thing, color 0 assumed to be transparent.

Quote:

PPaint supported PNG support since the dawn of time (nearly)

Checked now, your right, anyway I was thinking about alpha blending support.

Quote:

True layers make no sense in the context of palettemapped images.

It does make sense, because you can work whit destroying the background, I think you can see next frame as ghosted, when your making a animation, not the same.

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Of course SketchBlock a *New* in development application, can do 32bit and deeper!

I have not tried it yet, anyway any one is free to try your application, but it looks to me like people are asking for some thing different.

Quote:

Probably but my point is future applications not past ones!

I don't disagree whit that, its just that not every thing was wrong whit Dpaint and Ppaint, the problem whit the programs was that development stoped, and there are other programs like Perfect Paint and TVPaint, but even TVPaint stoped being developed, Again TVPaint is nice program but lacks some major features, not really tried Perfect Paint, I can't really say whats wrong whit it or what is missing.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Mar-2014 at 06:14 AM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Quote: PPaint supports alpha blending using either s econd brush as alpha map or the alternate environment as alpha map. No that colour keying it not the same thing, color 0 assumed to be transparent.

YES, I'm not talking about colour 0 transparency, I'm talking about blending a brush with the image accoding to alpha values defined in the second brush, and or alpha values defined by the alternate image.

Quote:

Quote: True layers make no sense in the context of palettemapped images. It does make sense, because you can work whit destroying the background, I think you can see next frame as ghosted, when your making a animation, not the same.

I'm not sure that a background image with colour transparency overlaid counts as a true layers system, but I think you can do that (or is that DPaint or ImageFX)

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@Raffaele

Quote:

And IMHO judging from the huuuge amount of retouched photos in internet, bitplane gfx has still good life everywhere and is far from being dead...

Bitplane graphics are dead. I challenge you to provide even one example they're "somewhat alive".

On Amiga, many users moved to gfx cards or ng platforms, both of which have chunky graphics instead. Those who stay on original hardware, mostly do it for "retro reasons", not "because it's better". It doesn't matter whether a game is using bitplane or chunky gfx, whether or not it's good is all that matters. And in many cases, bitplane graphics just made things more complex.

As for Deluxe Paint, Amiga version obviously uses bitplane graphics (as that was the only thing available). New versions support chunky too afaik, and that's what DOS version used from the beginning. So it's somewhat irrelevant point, when it comes to a specific multiplatform graphics program.

@Jupp3

Raffaele may be confusing the terms 'bitplane' and colour mapped or palette mapped graphics. There is some use for these formats still palette mapped PNGs take up much less space, useful for fast website design (PNG palettes can actually be 32bit alpha palettes not such 256 colour *bit ones BTW!) and the ubiquitous AnimGIF ofcourse.

Very little usage for phot retouching as he suggests though, unless you like cartoony photo effects I suppose.

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@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote: @Jupp3 Raffaele may be confusing the terms 'bitplane' and colour mapped or palette mapped graphics. There is some use for these formats still palette mapped PNGs take up much less space, useful for fast website design (PNG palettes can actually be 32bit alpha palettes not such 256 colour *bit ones BTW!) and the ubiquitous AnimGIF ofcourse. Very little usage for phot retouching as he suggests though, unless you like cartoony photo effects I suppose.

Infacts i did confusing it.

I was thinking of the way of paint, pixel versus vector graphic not the method used by the computer to describe it internally in the software (chunky planar or bitplaned) ...

Last edited by Raffaele on 31-Mar-2014 at 02:30 PM.

_________________
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@Raffaele

You want to contact Trip Hawkins he's not working for EA anymore but he was there and may still have good contacts.
Kamelito

@kamelit0

Quote:

kamelit0 wrote: @Raffaele You want to contact Trip Hawkins he's not working for EA anymore but he was there and may still have good contacts. Kamelito

I passed the ball to the Computer Museum by issuing a request with their message form.
Now it is up to them if they want to contact Electronic Arts in order to obtain sourcecode.

As being a mr. "Common Joe Smith" with no wealthy at all to buy the sourcecode and neither being delegated officially by the Amiga Community to ask source codes as free gift then I am not entitled to contact Electronic Arts.

I will commit an abuse if I were were presenting myself to EA declarimg I am talking in the name of whole Amiga community.

A representative from any of the Amiga firms perhaps could attempt an official request to EA then.

The last possibility is about us all to send a public petition to Electronic Arts asking for the free release of the sourcecodes of DPaimt.

Last edited by Raffaele on 01-Apr-2014 at 01:30 AM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

I didn't read the whole thread but did anyone mention MyPaint? It's Open Source and one of my favorite drawing programs.

I took an old Motion Tablet (you can buy them used now for like 200 bucks) and put Lubuntu on it and MyPaint. It's like having a Wacom Cintiq Companion! Very cool little toy. :)

Does any of the Amiga OSes support Wacom? That would have to be done first.

P.S. I actually work for EA but I have about as much say as the janitor. :p

Last edited by tommywright on 01-Apr-2014 at 05:46 AM.

@NutsAboutAmiga

>>Of course SketchBlock a *New* in development application, can do 32bit and deeper!
>I have not tried it yet, anyway any one is free to try your application, but it
>looks to me like people are asking for some thing different.

IIRC. SketchBlock is more about painting/sketching rather than pixel precise editing. And, IIRC again, it does not yet have Animation support.
(I hope it will, though.)

@tommywright

I have Wacom serial port connected tablet. Works fine with SAM440 + 68k drivers from Aminet.
(SketchBlock + drawing tablet are one of the most fun things on my AOS4 system)

Last edited by KimmoK on 01-Apr-2014 at 06:33 AM.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
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@tommywright

Quote:

Does any of the Amiga OSes support Wacom? That would have to be done first.

Apart from the old 68k drivers for old tablets approach mentioned by above, we have both UCLogic tablet usb drivers (by me) and Wacom usb driver (by Abalaban).

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@KimmoK

Quote:

IIRC. SketchBlock is more about painting/sketching rather than pixel precise editing. And, IIRC again, it does not yet have Animation support. (I hope it will, though.)

Well you can zoom right in you know and shrink down the brush as small as you like. I think the subpixel antialiasing on the brush stops you from editing literal pixel by pixel at the moment, smallest mark being 2 pixels but that will likely be fixed in the next version I hope, it was a quick work arround to prevent divide by zeros.

As to animation, it will never directly support anim5 format but you can use the layers system to create animation frames and export to PPaint forexample (or Blender for mepg support perhaps). It just an ARexx script away...

BTW somewhere above someone stated that GIMP doesn't do animation, it certainly does with the GAP.

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@KimmoK

Quote:

IIRC. SketchBlock is more about painting/sketching rather than pixel precise editing.

I took this as an indirect feature request and finetune the behaviour when zoomed in and editing individual pixels. 1 By adding a 1 pixle brush, 2 by removing the limit on smallest brush size ( a hang over from using integer arithmetic, before I moved to floating point a brush that was smaller than 1 pixel radius would lock up, as it's size rounde to 0) and fixed a small bug where bitmaped brushes rendered 0.5 pixels up and to the left, which made using the 1 pixel brush a bit awkward.

Last edited by broadblues on 01-Apr-2014 at 04:08 PM.

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IIRC PPaint was supposed to be ported to OS4.

Kamelito