@LimoU.Sin

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Amiga OS has become crippled

How has it become crippled, compared to how it worked before?

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or retarded in the hands of those responsible.

The only thing retired is not supporting modern hardware, when you have drivers, available.

If you ignore that the demos and programs that was written for ECS or AGA, instead of drivers, everything works better than ever.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

A blind dancing banana you are tying to educate i see.


AHI was developed by a third-party developer on 68K Amiga long before any PPC and long before any PPC standalone system, even for free and its a good piece of software BTW. And if I remember correctly it was around mid nineties after Commodore declared themself bankrupt. Commodore understood the situation and had the brains to do the right thing, something I really can't see those unprofessional responsible have here regarding the future of the OS.

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SACC-dude wrote: @LimoU.Sin great another troll, sigh back to beating that dead horse

ah but then you should know better about feeding time right

@ Franko

you're too obvious this time around mate

Last edited by klx300r on 11-Aug-2015 at 01:49 AM.

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@Hypex

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Hypex wrote: The "16-bit" 68K AmigaOS 3.0 when running on a 32-bit CPU used special functions that were optimised for 32-bit operations.

What?

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@klx300r

Not Franko, check his profile.

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@LimoU.Sin

>And if I remember correctly it was around mid nineties after Commodore declared themself bankrupt.

1994.

> Commodore understood the situation

They never understood.
CBM made huge losses on their IBM compatible PC segment. Main reason for their collapse.

>and had the brains to do the right thing,

They had no money. They could not do anything else.

It would have been sane to release the designs of y1991 Amigas and not to do A4k & continue with IBM compatibles.

In 1993 it would have been sane to see that GPU and audio specialist companies are winning, RTG and RTA should have shipped as standard with AOS3.1.
High end Amigas should have shipped with GFX card etc.


+
"Amiga OS3 worked well on Commodore computers, I can not see the same development curve on the hardware it's running now unfortunately."

When OS/SW and HW is done by the same company, it is possible to fully optimise the OS for that exact HW.

AmigaOS3 was a good example of that.

But it's not possible any more. Not even Apple or microsoft can afford to design both HW (GPU and Audio etc. components) and OS and build competitive product.

We must face the reality, or live in the past.

Last edited by KimmoK on 11-Aug-2015 at 07:09 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 11-Aug-2015 at 06:57 AM.

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@wawa

>wasnt amiga that has became powerpc, but it was actually a single (or double) extension by a third party company. judging by exclusivity of this extension

When 68k product line ended, CBM was long gone. At that time Amigas got PowerPC.
And Amiga Technologies adopted it officially.



(some people seem to think CBM invented Amiga... but they mainly/just sold it for maximum profit without focusing on it, Other compenies have done more R&D around Amiga than CBM.)

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NutsAboutAmiga wrote: If you ignore that the demos and programs that was written for ECS or AGA, instead of drivers, everything works better than ever.

Have you ever thought of the fact that some developers may have low end targets in mind for their software? Something like an A1200 with some trapdoor fastmem and a hard disk? To get certain software running on such a target requires NOT using 3rd pary drivers such as AHI (AHI is too slow on such targets for Paula).

Have you also considered that people do this for a hobby? If someone's hobby is writing in 68k assembly language for OCS/ECS/AGA, then that's what they're going to do. Is that wrong?

@KimmoK

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KimmoK wrote: But it's not possible any more. Not even Apple or microsoft can afford to design both HW (GPU and Audio etc. components) and OS and build competitive product.

Apple realized a brand new CPU (for iPhones, iPads, and the new iPod), which required a HUGE work, and she has resources to create a new GPU, Audio DSP, etc., or even acquire some company (Apple has an IMMENSE liquidity).

The thing is that actually it's more convenient to borrow them from partners like Imagination Technologies.

@KimmoK

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KimmoK wrote: @wawa >wasnt amiga that has became powerpc, but it was actually a single (or double) extension by a third party company. judging by exclusivity of this extension When 68k product line ended, CBM was long gone.

The 68K line basically ended when PowerPCs were announced, on 1991, because Motorola decided to jump on this new processor family along with Apple and IBM.

It means that even if we had the 68060 on 1994, the future of this family was already signed by long time.
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At that time Amigas got PowerPC. And Amiga Technologies adopted it officially.

It happened only on 2001, when they decided to port the Amiga o.s. on PowerPCs, because before that time, the "next generation" hardware for the machines which had to replace the old Amigas was open to any processor architecture.

But at that time PowerPCs weren't yet a convenient alternative. In fact, even Apple, which founded the PowerPC consortium, decided to jump on x86 by 2000, and it didn't happened only because an IBM's manager promised her the famous G5. However the transition was only deferred by some years, as we know.
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(some people seem to think CBM invented Amiga... but they mainly/just sold it for maximum profit without focusing on it, Other compenies have done more R&D around Amiga than CBM.)

Absolutely. And unfortunately...

@Thorham

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Thorham wrote: Quote: NutsAboutAmiga wrote: If you ignore that the demos and programs that was written for ECS or AGA, instead of drivers, everything works better than ever. Have you ever thought of the fact that some developers may have low end targets in mind for their software? Something like an A1200 with some trapdoor fastmem and a hard disk? To get certain software running on such a target requires NOT using 3rd pary drivers such as AHI (AHI is too slow on such targets for Paula). Have you also considered that people do this for a hobby? If someone's hobby is writing in 68k assembly language for OCS/ECS/AGA, then that's what they're going to do. Is that wrong?

Absolutely not, once you follow Commodore's guidelines.

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cdimauro wrote: Absolutely not, once you follow Commodore's guidelines.

And what are those? Use the OS for everything? If so, then that's not acceptable.

@Thorham: no. It means: open the Amiga Hardware Manual and follow the rules even when you decide to directly access the hardware.

When you develop you can:
- use only the o.s.;
- use only the hardware (directly; the o.s. is killed or "frozen");
- use the o.s. AND the hardware (as with applications like Deluxe Paint, Audio master).

But definitely you have to follow the given rules for ANY of such scenario.

@cdimauro

>Apple realized a brand new CPU (for iPhones, iPads, and the new iPod), which required a HUGE work,

Yet another ARM licencee.

They killed PA Semi to do that, then got ARM licence etc. to glue together a SoC for their pocket calculator. They did not invent any new thing (as usual).

IMO: PA6T was so far ahead of other PowerPC chips in 2006 that Apple should be taken to haque court for their crime against ... Amigans.

I know they have become a player in mobile arena (where there was no intel or AMD), and after initial A chip they have done good R&D, but I doubt they ever come close to Intel in CPUs or AMD in GPUs.
(in the meanwhile apple might be the best come computer in production. the most robust SW+HW combo, by optimally using off-the-self components)

+ iPhone / iPad would be nothing without the SW. So, also there, HW is not as relevant as good OS+SW.

Last edited by KimmoK on 11-Aug-2015 at 12:05 PM.

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@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: @cdimauro >Apple realized a brand new CPU (for iPhones, iPads, and the new iPod), which required a HUGE work, Yet another ARM licencee.

Only the license, to use the ISA: the microarchitecture is new, and completely different from ARM's standard ones, and even compared to other proprietary microarchitectures (Qualcomm).
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They killed PA Semi to do that, then got ARM licence etc. to glue together a SoC for their pocket calculator. They did not invent any new thing (as usual).

Take a look at the architecture detail: it's totally new, even compared to the PASemi design.
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IMO: PA6T was so far ahead of other PowerPC chips in 2006 that Apple should be taken to haque court for their crime against ... Amigans.

I think that at the time Apple not even know of the existence of amigans.

Anyway, she bought PASemi AND Intrinsity for her upcoming mobile chip, but at the time (2008, not 2006) all Macs were already Intel-based. The PowerPC era was ended, so there was no reason to continue to develop projects based on that ISA. Apple acquired the know-how and enginners of both companies for its new chip: that's it.

And on 2006 the PA6T was NOT superior to other PowerPC chips. You can take a look at the benchmarks to see that on average it's under the older G4s.
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I know they have become a player in mobile arena (where there was no intel or AMD), and after initial A chip they have done good R&D, but I doubt they ever come close to Intel in CPUs or AMD in GPUs.

For the mobile market they have a very good product, with a very high IPC. In fact, it dominates on all ARMs. Compared to Intel, Apple's ARM solutions compete well in the same (mobile) market, and it's quite normal since no ARM player has desktop chips.

BTW AMD is not a player on mobile.
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(in the meanwhile apple might be the best come computer in production. the most robust SW+HW combo, by optimally using off-the-self components)

Some Mac users reported that Windows 10 runs better than Yosemite on their machines.
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+ iPhone / iPad would be nothing without the SW. So, also there, HW is not as relevant as good OS+SW.

Software = support. That's why iOS is the dominant mobile platform.

@LimoU.Sin

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Amiga OS4 has certainly not been able to evolve in a normal way.

Of coruse not, they don't have the money to put into it, nor enough full time developers to do so. And are we talking about unique AmigaOS features? Or reinventing the wheel and implementing what other OS already have?

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Amiga OS3 worked well on Commodore computers,

Of course. They had a full team of developers and money going into it. Not only could you buy an Amiga computer from a shop you could buy AmigaOS off the shelf! This isn't the case today. In the modern worldview the Amiga doesn't exist.

@kolla

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What?

What I mean is, the kernel ænd associated libraries in the Amiga ROM, are written to work on a "16-bit" 68000 CPU. Upon initialising the kernel checks to see if a fully 32-bit CPU is present. So 68020 and up with proper address bus. If so, it then uses optimised routimes, that use the 68020+ 32-bit instructions. That's what I mean.

Last edited by Hypex on 12-Aug-2015 at 04:12 PM.

@KimmoK

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When 68k product line ended, CBM was long gone. At that time Amigas got PowerPC. And Amiga Technologies adopted it officially.

then what are amiga models with ppc, especially those from the nineties by amiga technologies, because i know that you will try to come up with amigaone product line that has not even been there before another 10 years after the genuine amiga line has expired. beyond that let me mention that amigaone computers have technically not a single feature in common with the genuine amigas, while they have a number features in common with generic pcs. if these are amigas for you, then a simple x86 board will do as well.

now. there is nothing you could provide as example to my knowledge, bare maybe some design studies and not working prototypes, like amijoe, or what its been called, rather to be considered failed pet projects by different individuals.

everybody knows that powerpc alternative has been introduced by phase5 with powerup, people who later mostly become member of morphos team and later by h&p with warpos, but exactly these were third party extensions to the genuine system, while (to my knowledge) there has never been something like amiga ppc, especially not in the nineties.

Last edited by wawa on 11-Aug-2015 at 06:09 PM.

@Trixie

I had drives that were slow to initalise so for me 3.1 allowed be to cold boot straight from an IDE harddrive, before I was booting from a non standard (as they all were back then) scsi setup or a boot floppy or just wait 20 seconds watching the kickstart floppy animation and and rebooting.

but the big thing of the 3.1 upgrade was better RTG support iirc.

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@wawa

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because i know that you will try to come up with amigaone product line that has not even been there before another 10 years after the genuine amiga line has expired.

Last Amiga released: A4000T/060 in 1996
First Amiga One introduced: A1-SE in 2002

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there has never been something like amiga ppc, especially not in the nineties.

Amiga Technologies called its PPC Amiga project "Power Amiga". Although Escom/Amiga Technologies went bankrupt (1996), its decision for Amiga 68k to PowerPC transition was adopted by most important CPU card manufacturer - Phase5 (CyberstormPPC released in 1997). WarpOS drivers for PowerUP cards were later included as contribution in AmigaOS 3.9 (2000).

@pavlor

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Amiga Technologies called its PPC Amiga project "Power Amiga". Although Escom/Amiga Technologies went bankrupt (1996),

to my knowledge so called amiga technologies never actually did anything beyond marketting and eventually assembling remaining stock. that so called "power amiga" was vapour ware as we use to call it. no any ppc amiga here.

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its decision for Amiga 68k to PowerPC transition was adopted by most important CPU card manufacturer - Phase5 (CyberstormPPC released in 1997).

this transition is noithing but a publicity stunt, because apple did it, and unfortunatelly simple minded but significant part of amiga user base thought, amiga should always follow what apple does. in fact there wasnt any transition in sight, p5 boards were 68k based with a ppc coprocessor, built for a 68k system with some ppc support. even when os4 was released many years later, these boards were not consdidered any tranision or legacy, let alone addressed till some third party amiga fans introduced some tech demo on their own behalf, namely os4 running on an amigas equipped with ancient ppc accelerators by phase5. they could have actually ported os4 to ppc macs or some embedded boards, like others have done, it wouldnt make these hardware anything more "amiga" than it actually was originally.

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WarpOS drivers for PowerUP cards were later included as contribution in AmigaOS 3.9 (2000).

exactly. heres what it was: a third party contribution. like cgx or warp3d for that matter. still there is no ppc amiga to be found here.