@iggy

Must I remind you of the recent benchmarks?

It is a combination of both inferior hardware and software and because noone else except some crazy amigans would use PPC for desktops today. There are reasons why most devices are for the embedded market. This will not become better in future obviously.

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @cdimauro even if MorphOS/X64 reaches goals before Aros 1.0 (whatever that is, SMP is already in testing/development like on the Raspberry port or Arix).

ARIX is not AROS.
Quote:

Of course developers would help to speed up development but I do not see the situation as dire as you.

I reported my opinion, looking at how the development of the two systems evolves.
Quote:

The strategy you propose and MorphOS seems to go to is very risky, there is not much 3rd party software development on and for MorphOS right now and if that changes has to be seen.

I know your opinion regarding the software base, but in this case let's focus on the o.s. and hardware.
Quote:

For me Aros being not just opensource but also cross-platform is much more appealing.

I don't care so much about being cross-platform. I think it should focus on the mainstream hardware, and leave minor platforms as is. Work resources are too much limited on AROS.

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @Yasu they have decided how they have decided... I think all NG platforms are heading in different directions anyway and MorphOS team wants to drop legacy features so at the end all will be very different.

Not so much. Many APIs will be essentially the same.

However you have to change several things to modernize the o.s., but this is required. Unless you want to stick with the so much limited and fragile o.s., which has no future.


@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote: @OlafS25 Quote: Everything PPC related is toy compared to current standards As I am still using an Atom based system for some applications, I obviously don't agree with that statement. Anything that has broken the GHz barrier has plenty of CPU power (even ARM).

Well, I've one Atom and and AMD C50 subnotebook, and they aren't enough anymore to sustain monsters like GMail, Facebook, and some other HUGE web sites.

I was very happy when I've bought them, but now the situation is totally different.

And even if you take a look at the single core/thread performance, they are ten (and more) times slower than a mainstream CPU.
Quote:

What really hampers us in using current hardware to even its fullest potential is our legacy of 31bit memory addressing and our lack of SMP support. For example, if MorphOS were ported to a 1.8 GHz T2080 based system, in its current state it would be limited to a single thread using about 1/8th of that CPU's potential computing power. Couple that with a 1.5GB memory limitation, and it does cripple potential performance. Remove these legacy constraints and you have SEVERAL times the potential performance. BTW - This applies to AROS as well. Even with high speed X64 CPUs, with only single thread support and a limited memory address range, potential performance is crippled.

No, it doesn't apply to AROS. AROS has modern and very fast hardware, and there's no 2GB limit anymore, especially on AROS/x64. Please, take a look at it.

As long as all three NG has the limitation it does none of them have a future. It doesn't matter that AROS x64 can address more memory space as it still lacks MP. This alone will make mainstream computer users uninterested. Mainstream users - NOT Amigans. All Amigans care about is the Amiga feeling. They can live with the limitations and frequent crashes.

Unless any of the systems go in a radical new direction this will not change. But even then it will be an uphill battle. What does an Amiga system offer that the others don't? How can we convince someone who is used to working with Linux to switch and make nifty programs to our platform? It's speed? SSD disks have taken care of that already. Some people will probably for the fun of it, but will enough do it? It will be a challange. Because as of now, the only viewpoint of the NG systems is: "you either get it or you don't".

I stand by my statement: none of the systems have a future in their current state. There is talk about a MorphOS ISA shift and AROS is slowly evolving but we can't treat the future as if it's already here.

First something needs to change. That may be the easy part. Then this new system needs to offer something interesting enough for mainstream users to be interested. This will be the hard part.

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@Yasu
We fixed:
Lack of software
Added normal features of other oses like cloud storage
And we will offer more the any mainstream OS next year.

App-streaming of commercial pro applications and games.

As long as you have a Internet connection aros will offer smp and support for more than 4gb on application level.

So I don't see a problem and no uphill battle. I don't need more users.. I want to please the existing ones.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

No, it doesn't apply to AROS. AROS has modern and very fast hardware, and there's no 2GB limit anymore, especially on AROS/x64. Please, take a look at it.

iirc The branch with Michal's new memory allocator can address 256GB of memory.

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@All

Well AmigaOS 3.x has already survived until nowadays, which is really impressive.

I purchased a Minimig recently, I can survive for years with it :)
And I wish the best to OS4 too :)

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@Templario

I voted for OS4 + PPC.

I use 3.1 myself on a humble 68020, but I accept that at some stage 3.x will have to, for the most part, be left behind.

Back in the Amigas hey day, by the mid-90s we did not really have much time for people still using 1.x
It is a similar situation now, in some ways, but the difference being now the Amiga has a much smaller user base.

I maintain for the user base to grow, cheap hardware is essential.
Whilst prices are high, the Amiga will remain niche and specialist. A lot of people are fine with that, but the consequence of that is it will take longer for the platform to move forwards as a whole.

3.x is going to be with us for quite some time yet.


Kind regards,
Spud.

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A1200 020/28MHz + 64Mb / 4Gb CF / OS 3.1.4.1 / 1438S
A500+ / 2Mb
A600

@phoenixkonsole

You are talking about the AROS/Linux hybrid of yours I presume?

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"Free speech includes other peoples right to offend you."

@Yasu

Quote:

How can we convince someone who is used to working with Linux to switch and make nifty programs to our platform?

Well I'm willing to be convinced, but so far I haven't been.

I like AROS because it's small and fast, but I don't actually use it for anything. All the apps I used on a daily basis -- Chromium, gnome-terminal, VLC, gcc, vim, etc. -- are on Linux. For me, AROS is just another app, along with FS-UAE, that I run on Linux.

AROS needs to find a compelling niche to get started in. It can't really aspire to be a general-use system until it is already established somewhere. One possibility would be to make it a really good platform for writing retro games -- writing games on Linux is still kind of a pain, so there's room to move in that area.

Last edited by bison on 20-Nov-2015 at 03:55 PM.

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@yasu
I am talking about Broadway 1.0 (native i386), Broadway68k (m68k) and AEROS (arm).
All of them will Feature this.

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@phoenixkonsole

Broadwaym68k?

Last edited by OlafS25 on 20-Nov-2015 at 05:14 PM.

@OlafS25
Yeah, don't worry it is only for use in Broadway and AEROS.
Broadway (i386) should be a "low footprint" distro with App Store and packagemanagment. Download and installation in under minutes.

AROS Vision is too huge to include it, also it includes too much stuff I would need permissions to use in commercial context.

_________________
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@terminills

Quote:

terminills wrote: @cdimauro Quote: No, it doesn't apply to AROS. AROS has modern and very fast hardware, and there's no 2GB limit anymore, especially on AROS/x64. Please, take a look at it. iirc The branch with Michal's new memory allocator can address 256GB of memory.

"256GB ought to be enough for anybody" (evil grin)

@Massi

Quote:

Massi wrote: @All Well AmigaOS 3.x has already survived until nowadays, which is really impressive. I purchased a Minimig recently, I can survive for years with it :)

Exactly my point, many Amigans are here for, well... Amiga! In its original, literal meaning, shape and form! The real Workbench OS on real Amiga H/W (be it real Commodore stuff, FPGA stuff, Jens Schönfeld stuff, or emulator stuff). Should be no need to explain this, and the "why haven't you upgraded to OS4 yet" kind of comments you see some times is both ignorant and kind of insulting if you think about it.

But then there are us who wanted to go beyond what today is labeled "retro". Back in 1999/2000 it made perfect sense to keep things as backwards compatible as possible, introduce new features within the Amiga constraints, and tie it all to big endian PPC by a tight JIT translator. And looking at MorphOS, it has really made the most out of the PPC platform (more than 80 mainstream systems supported) and the Amiga limitations (being the most feature rich option). But within the context of this thread it's interesting to ask: Where to go from here? There are no more PPC systems to support, the architecture is kind of dead anyways, and most things that can be done within the Amiga compatibility boundaries has already been done. And when your OS in 2015 doesn't even have SMP, 64-bit computing, Memory Protection, etc, haven't you de-facto turned into some kind of newish "retro" faction, if you look at things honestly? But not the "pure" Amiga retro, something different, and somewhat less wanted from a retro fan's point of view?

So when the "NG" front moves ahead to really incorporate these new, modern features and being much less ISA dependent, will it not mean that the two relevant options will be either the good old 68k/Workbench original, or the true NG thing, and the rest being stuck in the middle, being neither "the real Amiga" for retro enthusiasts, nor the modern options forthose who want a new "Amiga"?

@TRIPOS

I do not disagree with most you wrote... only one question. What would be the niche for such a modernized OS? There is one side, the "retro" community but why should anyone use that platform with almost no software? I am general sceptical regarding all "NG" amiga platforms because most of the software is 68k and that will not change. Because of that I am optimistic regarding new future FPGA based solutions because they offer new hardware for the existing codebase. For "NG" you need new written software and there is the weak point.

@TRIPOS

or more simply asked... why should anyone using it instead of Linux or Windows or why should anyone develop for it. FPGA 68k is "geeky", NG not.

Conclusion is :

People on amigaworld.net wants to keep PPC 69%
Amiga OS4 has about half of market 49%
People doesn't want emulation 15%
Aros has problem to get people interested 16%

Real problem with this poll is that there is no option AmigaOS3.x running on real hardware. Option to vote Aros running on 68x hardware should also be there. I belive that is real future of Aros.

I don't see any problem that there is no changes to vote MorphOS tunning on x64 hardware, as thye are not real choises.

Last edited by utri007 on 21-Nov-2015 at 12:22 PM.
Last edited by utri007 on 21-Nov-2015 at 11:31 AM.

@utri007

Quote:

People doesn't want emulation 15%

Cloanto has established emulation community that is bigger than OS4, MOS and AROS combined. You can count WinUAE users at least in thousands.

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The only conclusion is that we can't draw any conclusion.

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@itix

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