@ASiegel

If you rr-read carefully Wired article that I quoted, it is leather goods (TARIC base Class 4202) being charged 2,7%.

TARIC tariffs may vary from 0 to a maximum of 7%

Electronics infacts are charged 4%.

Import taxation is a kafkian nightmare and you need bureaucracy skills to master it and save some money.

If I want to buy Led lamps from China these are enlisted as "semiconductors devices emitting light for all generic purposes", TARIC Class 94054039, that is being charged of expensive 4,7% in order to protect european factories producing LED lamps...

But if I declare it at customs office as "light emitting diods" (Laser diods are included in this class), TARIC Class 8541 4010 00, i must pay no any import fees.

Import taxation system is the evil creation of mad greed politicians indeed.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@Raffaele

Quote:

Raffaele wrote: @ASiegel If you rr-read carefully Wired article that I quoted, it is leather goods (TARIC base Class 4202) being charged 2,7%. TARIC tariffs may vary from 0 to a maximum of 7% Electronics infacts are charged 4%.

You know it is okay to admit when you are wrong.

For instance, I freely admit that I am unable to understand how you can still stick to your argument after it has been definitely disproven.

Last edited by ASiegel on 25-Jun-2016 at 09:02 PM.

@Raffaele

Quote:

I believed you are from EU...

No, I am of Irish descendant , US born (which means that while my Country is a former British colony, I must admit to some misgivings about how the British have mistreated both the Irish and other peoples under there rule).

My point, which you apparently missed, is that I can get goods from the Europe without being taxed.
That taxes in my own State are minimal.
And that all of you in Europe appear to be under far too great a level of taxation.
Frankly, if anything like a VAT was proposed over here it would lead to widespread dissent.

Oh, btw, I do truly hate Donald Trump.
His idiotic protectionist ideas would cause massive inflation in my Country if enacted.
So while I tend to agree with the exiters, I find no connection between Trumps assine ideas and those of the British.

Last edited by iggy on 25-Jun-2016 at 09:13 PM.

@TiredofLife

In all honesty it is a matter of facts you just retired from EU due to fear of immigrating refugees and you wete scared ISIS terrorists could be hidden in the mass of refugees and cause new attacks like in 2005. This is why a very big number of people in UK voted to leave contributing to 51,7% result...

Brexit is the very big first victory of Isis in Europe...

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@Raffaele

Brexit is the very first fatality of increasingly removed politician/increasingly corporate class in Europe.

Last edited by Overflow on 25-Jun-2016 at 09:37 PM.

@Raffaele

Quote:

In all honesty it is a matter of facts you just retired from EU due to fear of immigrating refugees and you wete scared ISIS terrorists could be hidden in the mass of refugees and cause new attacks like in 2005. This is why a very big number of people in UK voted to leave contributing to 51,7% result... Brexit is the very big first victory of Isis in Europe...

I don't understand how you've come to such a conclusion and why you think it would be a victory for ISIS.

@ASiegel

Quote:

ASiegel wrote: @Raffaele Quote: Raffaele wrote: @ASiegel If you rr-read carefully Wired article that I quoted, it is leather goods (TARIC base Class 4202) being charged 2,7%. TARIC tariffs may vary from 0 to a maximum of 7% Electronics infacts are charged 4%. You know it is okay to admit when you are wrong. For instance, I freely admit that I am unable to understand how you can still stick to your argument after it has been definitely disproven.

I was stick because as a matter of facts I was charged of additional 4%... then charged of 22% VAT. Now this 4% should had been jumped out from somewhere.

[EDIT]

I checked on Italy customs site about TARIC Tariffs and here is what it is saying by adding Computer & Tablets TARIC code and China (in Italian Cina CN) as state:

https://aidaonline7.agenziadogane.it/nsitaricinternet/TaricServlet

I added code for tablets is 8517120090

Now Custom duties for Computers are effectively 0 but my country, Italy is uniterally applying extra VAT 4% to any item imported from worldwide...

So it is called VAT but in effects is nothing than a custom duty disguised with another name...

Quote:

Imposta Valore Aggiunto ( ERGA OMNES ) : 22 Regolamento: 1 063300/1972 Imposta Valore Aggiunto ( ERGA OMNES ) : 4 Cadd: Q065

What a bunch of THIEFS are in my national govern.
They study all tricks to made us italians pay more taxes than any other country.

Last edited by Raffaele on 25-Jun-2016 at 11:01 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 25-Jun-2016 at 10:56 PM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@BigD

Quote:

That's exactly how it is other than the fact we signed up to a trade agreement not a United States of Europe . Also, every US citizen knows who Obama is and had the option to vote against his party if they didn't like him in the last US election. However, Donald Tusk is a pretty low-profile person in the UK as far as the regular man on the street is concerned and yet he is the President of the European Council; technically the most powerful man in the EU! The main problem is we the people don't have any opportunity to directly vote for him, in fact the European Council despite being the higher of the two 'houses' in the EU government structure is a 'quango' with members elected by nation state leaders and not us the EU citizens. It is a sham and barely a democracy.

That's true of course, but a lot of people don't seem to realise we don't directly vote for our Prime Minister either. We vote for our local MP, then whatever party has the majority puts their leader in charge of the country.

Hence the outrage when Gordon Brown became PM. "I didn't vote for him!". No, but you didn't vote for Tony Blair either.

It's not that much different, really.

Last edited by Chris_Y on 25-Jun-2016 at 10:17 PM.

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Baba Wanga rules

http://www.documentarytube.com/articles/europe-will-be-gone-by-2016--all-the-prophecies-by-bulgarian-prophetess-vanga

: D

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 25-Jun-2016 at 10:21 PM.

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@Raffaele

This is the second time now you have claimed this as a "fact".

I would like to see your evidence of this please.

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@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:

WolfToTheMoon wrote: @TiredofLife Quote: So which one is it? First you say the public are idiots and therefore a dictator should be imposed. You then go on to say, you would be happy with a EU-wide elected central parliament in Brussels or wherever it may be. The second one goes some way to agreeing with BIgD, so not sure why you replied to his post. It's that lack of democracy that he was pointing at. An elected central parliament in Brussels is not possible as long Farages of this world exists. That's the issue here. A lean, fast EU beurocracy is not possible when there are 28 member states with 20 something official languages. The issues here is that we, Europeans, are still stuck in the nation state mindset, while EU is trying to move from it.

No the issue is in the subject title , In Or Out.
That's what we are discussing.
So basically you going with the dictatorship option.
That's your choice but there are others.
Don't be too surprised when you find a lot of others choose otherwise.

Going down route of deciding who gets to vote is a very dangerous one.
That type of thing has been done before and ended badly.
A little historical research will quickly demonstrate that.

Cheers

_________________
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

@Raffaele

Quote:

Raffaele wrote: @TiredofLife In all honesty it is a matter of facts you just retired from EU due to fear of immigrating refugees and you wete scared ISIS terrorists could be hidden in the mass of refugees and cause new attacks like in 2005. This is why a very big number of people in UK voted to leave contributing to 51,7% result... Brexit is the very big first victory of Isis in Europe...

Saying it's a matter of fact does not make it so.
Did you watch any of the issues being debated?
Many have wanted to leave the EU many years before ISIS even existed.
The real fact is the public were never asked what the wanted since they backed joining the EEC.
The EU is a different entity.

_________________
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

@Amiboy

Seey edit...

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@Chris_Y

Quote:

Chris_Y wrote: @BigD Quote: That's exactly how it is other than the fact we signed up to a trade agreement not a United States of Europe . Also, every US citizen knows who Obama is and had the option to vote against his party if they didn't like him in the last US election. However, Donald Tusk is a pretty low-profile person in the UK as far as the regular man on the street is concerned and yet he is the President of the European Council; technically the most powerful man in the EU! The main problem is we the people don't have any opportunity to directly vote for him, in fact the European Council despite being the higher of the two 'houses' in the EU government structure is a 'quango' with members elected by nation state leaders and not us the EU citizens. It is a sham and barely a democracy. That's true of course, but a lot of people don't seem to realise we don't directly vote for our Prime Minister either. We vote for our local MP, then whatever party has the majority puts their leader in charge of the country. Hence the outrage when Gordon Brown became PM. "I didn't vote for him!". No, but you didn't vote for Tony Blair either. It's not that much different, really.

Is that true though?
I would suggest it was only non Labour voters who were "outraged"

The local MPs are put forward by the party.
Many people vote for the party irrespective of who the MP is locally and nationally.
The party leader is a bit part player just as much as the local MP is as far as voting is concerned.
The only concern seems to be is the party leader good enough to coordinate a winning campaign.

So I don't think Labour supporters were too bothered when Gordon brown took over.

So that to me says the two situations are different.

Cheers

_________________
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

@Chris_Y

Quote:

That's true of course, but a lot of people don't seem to realise we don't directly vote for our Prime Minister either. We vote for our local MP, then whatever party has the majority puts their leader in charge of the country.

The EU's system is a lot different to our Parliamentary system. For one thing I've been talking about Donald Tusk who is a member of the European Council. They are the legislative creation body similar to the House of Commons and yet their Councillors are not chosen by the electorate but by the member states' leaders!? That means the people that draft the EU Directives are an elite class of untouchables only accountable to the Prime Ministers and each other and not the electorate. I have no idea how Donald Tusk was elected by I think it involves each Nation State taking it in turn to nominate a prominent politician to be leader for a fixed turn. I can't find the data on what the voting majority was to vote him in so I can only guess it was decided and voted on behind closed doors and the data was not released? In addition Donald Tusk was re-elected so I have no idea how that worked!

The elected house; The European Parliament simply tweaks and votes to implement the legislation and directives operating like our House of Lords! It means that the political elite are raised up to be above the elected class and it deeply troubles me. It is in no way comparable to voting for an UK Member of Parliament (MP), who represents a political party who in turn nominates a leader (normally before a national election). It is the individual MP who is accountable to the electorate and if we are not happy with the ruling party's choice of leader (and our MP is in that party) we can tell them and they are obliged to take our concerns on board. If we are really unhappy with the leader we can vote the ruling party out of office at the next general election by not voting for an MP from that party. We can even join the political party and help choose the next leader! Can we do any of these things in regards to MEPs, European Council Councillors or the European Parliament political groups? The answer is : NO.

In summary:
THE EU HAS NO ACCOUNTABILITY, RELEGATES DIRECT DEMOCRACY (PLEASE NOTE THAT THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT'S 'PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION' VOTING SYSTEM IS NOT THE SAME AS THE 'FIRST PAST THE POST' SYSTEM IN OUR UK PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY) TO THE LOWER HOUSE WHICH DOESN'T FORMULATE LAWS. THE EUROPEAN COUNCIL HAS BRED A SUPER CLASS OF ELITE POLITICIANS WHO DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER TO EU CITIZENS BY WAY OF A REGULAR VOTE. THE UK WERE (AND STILL ARE) ONLY INTERESTED IN A TRADE AGREEMENT AND THIS IS SO FAR BEYOND THAT THAT IT SEEMS LIKE A VERY SICK JOKE BUT SADLY IT ISN'T!

Last edited by BigD on 25-Jun-2016 at 11:33 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 25-Jun-2016 at 11:27 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 25-Jun-2016 at 11:25 PM.

_________________
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@BigD

Quote:

who is a member of the European Council. They are the legislative creation body similar to the House of Commons and yet their Councillors are not chosen by the electorate but by the member states' leaders!?

Wikipedia: The European Council, which has no formal powers, is the institution of the European Union (EU) that comprises the heads of state or government of the member states

All these people were elected in office by their own citizens.

Quote:

I can't find the data on what the voting majority was to vote him so I can only guess it was decided on behind closed doors and the data not released? In addition Donald Tusk was re-elected so I have no idea how that worked!

Wikipedia: Appointments, as well as the removal of incumbents, require a double majority support in the European Council: ... at least 55% of the Council of the European Union members who must also represent at least 65% of the EU's citizens.

Quote:

The European Parliament simply tweaks and votes to impliment the legislation and directives operating like our House of Lords!

Unlike your House of Lords, European Parliament can´t be outvoted by other House and can remove government (European Commission) from office.

Quote:

Can we do any of these things in regards to MEPs, European Council Councillors or the European Parliament political groups?

Of course yes. You may even vote for another party in the next elections...

Quote:

(PLEASE NOTE THAT PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION IS NOT THE SAME AS UK PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY)

You mean parlamentiary democracy, where MPs can be voted in office against wishes of majority of voters?

@pavlor

Quote:

You mean parlamentiary democracy, where MPs can be voted in office against wishes of majority of voters?

First Past the Post is the electoral system used to elect the UK parliament. Under First Past the Post voting takes place in constituencies that elect a single MP each. Voters put a cross on a ballot paper next to their favoured candidate and the candidate with the most votes in the constituency wins.

The majority votes for any single MP means that that MP wins! So unless you mean that more people in the UK at large may have voted for a Labour MP and yet a Labour Government was not formed because more Conservative MPs won their regions seat, then I don't follow you! Maybe you think that party politics still counts for more than us all having an accountable MP in the House of Commons. I personally value that more than I trust the Conservative, Labour or the Lib Dems as monolithic entities themselves. None of them really stand for anything any more and if any Conservative MP thought David Cameron is a good leader with a moral compass who puts us first or any Labour MP thought Jeremy Corbyn is a good leader who doesn't want to drag us back to the national strikes of the 1970s then they'd immediately go down in my estimations. Any historical ideals pushed by Political Parties have been done away with on the altar of the cult of personality of the party leader and all their personalities are found lacking

Quote:

Wikipedia: The European Council, which has no formal powers, is the institution of the European Union (EU) that comprises the heads of state or government of the member states All these people were elected in office by their own citizens.

Well that is really loosely worded and drafting EU Directives 'IS' one of their formal powers. Having someone elected by someone who was elected by their countries citizens is not the same as if the citizens voted for them ourselves! Plus if I voted for a Conservative MP but don't necessarily think that an Old Eton College socially liberal mess of a politician like David Cameron would make a good decision on who to appoint as a European Councillor then again it is not really direct democracy is it?

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

The Council can delegate legislative authority to the Commission and, depending on the area and the appropriate legislative procedure, both institutions can seek to make laws.[2] There are Council regulations and Commission regulations. Article 288 does not clearly distinguish between legislative acts and administrative acts, as is normally done in national legal systems.[3]

It is the Council's power to create Directives but it sometimes delegates that power to the Commission. The European Parliament simply ratifies the Directives.

In regards, to your point about the European Parties making up the European Parliament; they each are comprised some such wide group of different political parties from nation states across Europe that you really have no idea what they really stand for or if the people on the proportional representation list are 'good eggs' or just career politicians after an easy job! Plus on our EU forms we simply vote for the UK party and not the EU party that they are seeking to join up with in the European Parliament!

Last edited by BigD on 26-Jun-2016 at 12:25 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 26-Jun-2016 at 12:17 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 26-Jun-2016 at 12:11 AM.

_________________
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@BigD

Quote:

The majority votes for any single MP means that that MP wins!

Like in Portsmouth South, where 65 % voters voted for other candidates than current MP?

Quote:

It is the Council's power to create Directives but it sometimes delegates that power to the Commission. The European Parliament simply ratifies the Directives.

Do you get, the European Parliament votes for members of the Commisison and may remove them from office the same way? Do you get Commission can´t bypass the Parliament?

Quote:

if the people on the proportional representation list are 'good eggs'

I see you don´t like proportional representation voting system. It has its flaws (you mentioned one of them), but minority votes are better represented than in first-post-the-post system.

Quote:

Plus on our EU forms we simply vote for the UK party and not the EU party that they are seeking to join up with in the European Parliament!

Most parties in EU are affiliated to their european parliament faction, so you should know, in whose company is your party before elections.

@pavlor

Quote:

Do you get, the European Parliament votes for members of the Commisison and may remove them from office the same way? Do you get Commission can´t bypass the Parliament?

But I wasn't talking about the Commission. It is the unelected (by direct EU citizen voting) quango called the European Council that is above the Parliament, hence why Donald Tusk, European Council President read the joint statement after Britian's referendum result was released.

Although the Council can delegate legislation forming powers to the Commission (which is accountable to the Parliament), the Council itself is above the Parliament. It really is a farce and wouldn't be a system the British people would tolerate being used for our national governance never mind an entire continent!!!

Last edited by BigD on 26-Jun-2016 at 12:41 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 26-Jun-2016 at 12:31 AM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Thread

Here is the main problem with how Directives are drafted:

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

The Commission differs from the other institutions in that it alone has legislative initiative in the EU. Only the Commission can make formal proposals for legislation: they cannot originate in the legislative branches. Under the Treaty of Lisbon, no legislative act is allowed in the field of the Common Foreign and Security Policy. In the other fields the Council and Parliament are able to request legislation; in most cases the Commission initiates the basis of these proposals. This monopoly is designed to ensure coordinated and coherent drafting of EU law.[48][49] This monopoly has been challenged by some who claim the Parliament should also have the right, with most national parliaments holding the right in some respects.[50] However, the Council and Parliament may request the Commission to draft legislation, though the Commission does have the power to refuse to do so[51] as it did in 2008 over transnational collective conventions.[52] Under the Lisbon Treaty, EU citizens are also able to request the Commission to legislate in an area via a petition carrying one million signatures, but this is not binding.[53]

The Parliament should have the right to directly propose legislation themselves as they are elected by the citizens. The Council seems to have the last say on who gets nominated as President of the Commission and delegates legislative power to the Commission, the Commission initiates the drafting of most of the Directives and the Parliament has to beg for anything to get done despite having the mandate from the people! It is all topsy-turvy!!!

Last edited by BigD on 26-Jun-2016 at 12:58 AM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios