@Jupp3

Quote:

Do you mean, it's just because "no-one asked" that there's no (f.ex.) Mac Mini support, that would guarantee continuous availability of affordable 2nd hand hardware?

If you know someone, who would be able to do most work on such port, let them know. Eg. PowerBook/iBook port makes sense, because there are (and will be) no other portable PowerPC computers with decent specifications.

@wawa

Quote:

aros is amiga

AROS is Amiga without Amiga name: same weak points, non-existent name recognition. That being said, it is one of the most ambitious and most successful Amiga projects of the post-Commodore era.

@Srtest

Quote:

I guess you'll survive

likely, still several years.. simply would like to see you came across more clearly. but thats your choice.

@pavlor

Quote:

AROS is Amiga without Amiga name

thats a minor handicap in my view, as i tend to name things by their adequate name. same as i dont care if vampire is called "amiga" or not, even though they may be some who would like that.

besides that can be seen simply as source preservation strategy with an unlimited access. none can be stopped to incorporate aros code into os4 if need be, as long as there are still some folks, who think this has more recognition or relationship to a "legitimate name".

Last edited by wawa on 28-Nov-2016 at 06:37 PM.

@wawa

Well until that happens (or not) I'll be sure to check out Aros for the E-UAE JIT on the X1k. Now if only you can direct me to a source other than Ares shop so I would feel more Amiga. You know me (...) a sentimental.

Last edited by Srtest on 28-Nov-2016 at 06:43 PM.

@Srtest

Quote:

Now if only you can direct me to a source other than Ares shop so I would feel more Amiga. You know me (...) a sentimental.

shouldnt be difficult to set up. when it comes to 68k you can either choose olafs distribution:
http://www.aros-platform.de/download.htm
(take one of the links according to your preference)

you can also download the actual nightly for your platform including contributions directly from aros server:
http://aros.sourceforge.net/de/download2.php

you should usually be able to run your amiga software with it. feel free to contact me via pm or mail if you need help. just lets stay on topic here, even if it doesnt make much sense;)

@zidz

I have often thought the same thing. As some have mentioned though going to X86 creates a support nightmare, even Microsoft has to rely on hardware manufacturers to make the drivers for the hardware.

That said any X86 motherboard could run Windows and Linux, so making a semi-custom one would open up to a large, pre-existing, market. That could help reduce the cost as you would be able to have a larger production scale/quantity. Another way would be to pick a specific motherboard (hopefully one that will be in production for some time), a specific processor and gfx card and call that spec an "Amiga". If you wanted you could have different specs similar to the original Amiga 1200/4000 for example. It reduces support to a similar level to the current PPC solutions and would allow access to cheaper mass produced products.

I loved my Amiga, I would love to play with one again (AOS4 mostly) but I can't justify the amount of money being asked for the current PPC crop. If it was X86 I could potentially dual boot it with Windows as well if/when I needed software not available for AOS4.

Personally I don't understand the animosity towards X86 anymore. It's just a processor, it takes electricity and instructions and makes magic happen, like any processor.

@smartroad

designing custom and expensive x86 hardware would be even more superfluous that designing custom and expensive ppc hardware.

After checking Aros I can say 2 things:

1. You can't be any less user-friendly regrading setup as an 3.1 replacement on E-UAE jit. The big archive takes forever to open on Amiga and almost destroyed a partition on my Linux Installation. I used instead the smaller version which didn't work at start because of the startup-sequence. I had to spend quite some time in figuring out what prevents it from booting and then - the bootstrap didn't work with all sorts of installed titles - whdload and the regular way. I then tried some files from the nightly iso and had to format my emulation partition because they were read only in a way I couldn't delete. So if this is your appeal to the general user you picked an opposite direction.
2. This is not in line with 4.1. Really man, respect the work and it is a technical achievement, as far as 3.1 goes. Nice that you introduced to the old way kernel technology. Maybe it can go head to head with 3.9 after everything is enabled, I don't know as e-uae here doesn't support rtg. What I liked was the mouse movement in emulation under Wanderer.

* Anything more is not for this thread.

__________________

That little adventure made me go back to eab and read some stuff about Aros. What I can say is that if you are looking to those guys to figure out what was it about the Amiga that worked then you picked the wrong group. Seriously, for them the Amiga was some achievement that they were able to flaunt to their friends with their 4 colors pc. Paula was no technicality it had a warm sound that sounded better than anything besides the mt-32 (which is like comparing Amiga to Silicon Graphics). You know what? not better - unique, like my dad talks about his record collection. They don't get that because they have become pc guys. It's like the Apple flock talking about design and knowing nothing about computing because that is the design - to keep them as dumb as can be. They have spent large sums on their pc yet consider an Amiga PowerBE purcahse as throwing away money. There you can find a real apologetic and justifying approach to make all of us follow suit with what they think is best. For them VGA was better than AGA because it had some more colors under certain situations. Well those colors looked horrible then and even lousier now, While AGA under emulation still has that something. They dont spit venom - they are childish and only a market situation like ours makes poeple here appease them so they can go on with their retro emulation on their great pc that for some reason doesn't even makes them angry. Maybe some of them suffered all those years trying to hang on to the Amiga with upgrades and expectations. Guess what? I suffered on the pc for the last 20 years and today I use it like the console kids. Oh, the irony. Well, a least it would have been ironic if there wasn't a group that tried to derail something which they don't even understand - not market wise or regarding current trends in computing. I hope the fpga guys don't count on them because I want them to succeed. I really hope the X5000 takes off so this place would be a little more balanced and not with nostalgia.

__________________


At this stage I remember 2 things.

1. No one has answered any of my questions:

If raw power is so important how does that explains the smartphones success? If it's all about more power and a wider used ISA, how come the only markets where they were able to slap around microsoft (after numerous failures on x86 which any other company would collapse under) is on smartphones and tablets: markets that have different processor architectures and os kernels, which also have all-around less power and available software to use.
How is it that at one point a game such as Fallout was considered a game for RPG geeks and had a small audience and at a later point a humongous brand that Bethesda bought for the masses?
How come devices such as the Raspberry design become more and more popular if poeple look for an all-in-one uber-computer?
Will such an Uber-Amiga on the X64 attract even one Call of Duty gamer/zombie before he continues on to consoles?
Wasn't Amiga succesfull because it allowed you to just turn on and play?
What are the standards that the big companies use between all of their computing worlds and can it be developed or adopted by smaller ones on emerging platforms with little resources (like the pci enabled the graphics/sound/whatever companies to thrive of a little while) ?
Speaking of which, were all of thoss companies - 3Dfx, Ati, Matrox, Auzentech, Aurall - a case of "bad management" like Commodore?
What would happen right now if the X1000 had a quad 4 gigahertz processor? Wouldn't you still need that gpu for gaming and graphics? what would really be the difference?
Does X64 guarantee anything about titles and productivity considering more and more people leave classic desktop comp in favor of other ventures?


2. It is not about complete systems much like what I claimed about the motherboard that can be found nowadays on streamers, handhelds, HTPCs, converter boxes and so on, so open source is not about complete software/os solutions either. You can open source a part of an os that would bring a more collaborative effort. What is ScummVM actually? maybe this means engines like the Scumm engine tells us something about the direction - a certain technology, like ScummVM, that exists practically everywhere. I know that was the whole point of Amiga digital environment back then which didn't become a valid consumer product. Maybe it can be found again via open source and portability even if that name reminds people here of hated figures. Open source isn't a magic word and on Linux I see everybody are still looking with their big eyes to the amd and nvidia people to let them be free and open source and always wait for that nvidia driver to move on. At this point I can say that I don't wish to continue in this fashion and hope to be a part of more constructive discussions, and outside the virtual world I also have no wish to be a part of another round of Commodore-like success that eventually will die again and break a lot of fans hearts. This is the long run for me because I still believe Amiga is the right way of computing - no matter which field we are talking about (the point being is that Amiga is on one side of a long road and this community on the other).

Edit:

Added something about your favorite company (one of the questions...) and what ScummVM tells me regarding open source.

Last edited by Srtest on 30-Nov-2016 at 12:46 AM.
Last edited by Srtest on 29-Nov-2016 at 11:25 PM.

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote: @smartroad designing custom and expensive x86 hardware would be even more superfluous that designing custom and expensive ppc hardware.

So don't design anything. Port AOS to ARM and get it working on a RPi3 first on single core then work on multi-core.

They all have the same sound and video and should hurry development. After it's working, or while under development even, start design and testing on a AmigaOne ARM motherboard.

Plenty of possible OS sales to support development and more sales for dedicated hardware. As far as other ARM hardware..... ARM is ARM.

_________________
Tinkering with computers.

@Srtest

Quote:

You can't be any less user-friendly regrading setup as an 3.1 replacement on E-UAE jit. The big archive takes forever to open on Amiga and almost destroyed a partition on my Linux Installation.

you mean olafs "vision" distro? well, it might come over a bit messy as it contains a huge load of other free contributions he gathered, its alsmost a full gig in size afair. but im not sure how one can manage to destroy a linux partition decompressing it. what actually happened?

other than that i would simply decompress a nightly which itself is about 20meg in size to bootable uae image or directory. it is acttually a full replacement for original system with additional features. admittedly the genuine skin and icon set isnt very catchy;).

Quote:

they were read only in a way I couldn't delete

strange, never came across such problem. i have compiled aros x86 and 68k, deleted and recompiled full system today two times while testing. perhaps it has to do with uae (image) settings and/or the choice of filesystem. unfortunatelly im not familiar with euae.

Quote:

So if this is your appeal to the general user you picked an opposite direction.

a new experience may ocassionally be a bit awkward, however to me testing aros usually under winuae, there cannot be anything more straightforward. simply decompress it to a bootable dir and run.

Quote:

This is not inline with 4.1. Really man, respect the work and it is a technical achievement, as far as 3.1 goes.

this may be an impression, based on the lack of rtg on your part, but admittedly aros68k port is not as polished as s86. still since i dont have up to date experience with os4, would be curious, what is most lacking?

Quote:

That little adventure made me go back to eab and read some stuff about Aros. What I can say is that if you are looking to those guys to figure out what was it about the Amiga that worked then you picked the wrong group.

aros is not exclusively x86. it may started on this platform and it may be still the most popular one, due to price-performance ratio, but it includes arm and ppc, admittedly only sam460 i guess and the port may not be up to date due to lack of interested audience. the simple reason is that as you see even os4 fans frequently advocate a switch to arm or x86, even if i dont think it makes any sense currently.

however, my interest in aros is not for x86, but for genuine amiga. i use uae actually only for quick testing. still, im not trying to talk you into it. if os4 on x5k is your preference, its completely fine with me.

@Signal

Quote:

So don't design anything. Port AOS to ARM and get it working on a RPi3 first on single core then work on multi-core.

and obvious answer is that this is what aros already does. assuming you wouldnt be satisfied with its completeness or feature set as much as srtest, remember that an os4 port would certainly be considerably less stable and generally usable while transition, which would likely take several years, if ever completed. and the result, best case, would be a new system with even less software, actually close to none. so i think its safe to say, that you have to accept the situation as is.

@wawa

Hey man where have I said I don't like it? I can use my own words, thank you. If you point me to the right thread I can provide more points about my experience - which was almost a complete day of trying to get it to work properly which most (sane) users wouldn't do. When it is able to run some stuff after the bootstrap (for example - an installed Burntime, or using whdload without a crash) I can, in time, provide a full review if it will help.

If you really want to know what its missing I've posted my youtube address in this thread so you can watch the amiga-related stuff on mute and see the difference (unless you want to hear my voice). Other than that my preference is not the X5k, it is the X1k. The X5k should be all of our preference when it launches. Until that point we can continue to argue aimlessly.

Last edited by Srtest on 30-Nov-2016 at 02:29 PM.

@smartroad

Quote:

even Microsoft has to rely on hardware manufacturers to make the drivers for the hardware.

Nope:
even Microsoft CAN rely on hardware manufacturers to make the drivers for the hardware.

Much of a difference

But as with any other Open Sauce this thread just shouldn't be used after 1 week.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@Srtest

Quote:

Hey man where have I said I don't like it? I can use my own words, thank you. If you point me to the right thread I can provide more points about my experience - which was almost a complete day of trying to get it to work properly which most (sane) users wouldn't do. When it is able to run some stuff after the bootstrap (for example - an installed Burntime, or using whdload without a crash) I can, in time, provide a full review if it will help.

you seem easily offended, but this wasnt my intention, genuinely.

Quote:

If you really want to know what its missing I've posted my youtube address in this thread so you can watch the amiga-related stuff on mute and see the difference (unless you want to hear my voice).

i have looked a bit on your videos, but it doesnt tell me much, beyond what i already know, there ar bits and pieces that os4 has an advantage in, then there are others aros has an advantage in. they are not identical, but i would have hard time to tell one ahead of the other by a greater deal.

Quote:

Other than that my preference is not the X5k, it is the X1k. The X5k should be all of our preference when it launches. Until that point we can continue to argue aimlessly.

my apologies. however i hardly expect to change my mind of any os4 dediacted hardware any soon, because it fails to attract me exactly as much as aros on x86. also i find the whole development roadmap, if there actually is any, except the patterns we may seek in the random, is not satisfying for a potential customer. especially, it doesnt secure to sustain the platform.

Last edited by wawa on 30-Nov-2016 at 04:30 PM.

@Kronos

Does it relly or creates a barrier of its own standards that other companies must follow? eventually even that doesn't help just like an upgrade to windows killed the 3D sound standard so the soundcard companies which rellied on gamers were left with a much smaller music enthusiasts market. Reliance is on the user, not on a playground hosted by bullies that both users and developers must accept in order to meet.

_______

Yeah, I guese those 50 pages of Hyperion bashing or complaining about the known situation or x86 or whatever that appears over and over and over and over every few weeks never gets old but this thread which has taken a multiple of directions other than bashing is stale. That is what Germans call zeitgeist, no?

Last edited by Srtest on 01-Dec-2016 at 12:12 AM.

@wawa

That wasn't me being offended. That was me trying to be clearer... and asking you for directions where I can provide more info.

_______


If running Oddysey when it goes through super-heavy Javascript intense Facebook like nothing (and while Candi is on the background and I also listen to music) doesn't make you see the difference then I don't know what will. What does os flow mean to you? during my Aros test the thing I liked was the improvement in mouse fluidity over that on 3.1 via emulation. If Odyssey gets the recently updated mplayer with Altivec (and also gets updated itself) then it will be even better with all of those fb videos.
If your point that it simply can be replaced by Aros and everything is just as good then okay - this doesn't tell me anything. I like 4.1 as mentioned.
That said, point taken and I'm currently thinking about my next video which should focus more on programs and features which I guess are more suited for a bottom line developer. The thing is, a features & apps video needs to be deeper and slower while I wish to avoid beeing boring both in my native language and in general.

_______

Again, my point is that I don't see it as an "or" situation and much more as a "either" situation with the result being a better experience. If it is to enhance the old hardware with some new juice and reenvigurate people here then I say - why not... And regarding the X5k, lets not think about it as the X5k, lets think about the Amiga 4000 back then and the reason some people prefered it to the smaller ones. Back then it was logical because there was a market and a succesful parent company that produced it. Now, you don't have a market and you have 2 companies that try to advance Amiga in their own way in a difficult situation (not just money-wise). You see? it is not about Power+OS4 but the will to get that big machine and not just the small one that can easily be justified as cost-effective.The reasoning, at least in my case was that it was an investment both in myself and in the Amiga for the years to come. If it succeds then as a long term project it might not be so bad from a financial perspective. I actually understand those unwilling to spend on such a machine. You are Amigans just like all the users of all the machines back then and you remind me more of those who got the cd32 than anything and I hope the fpga project provide you with an exciting product as well.

@Srtest

Quote:

That wasn't me being offended. That was me trying to be clearer... and asking you for directions where I can provide more info.

sorry, must have overseen that.

Quote:

If running Oddysey when it goes through super-heavy Javascript intense Facebook like nothing (and while Candi is on the background and I also listen to music) doesn't make you see the difference then I don't know what will.

remember you are talking about, os4 running native on your haredare in comparison to aros running in emulation on this same hardware (as i understand, since, why would you use euae instead of winuae, that also runs fine on x86 linux with wine). uae has some considerable emulation overhead, especially when emulating amiga chipset. this may not be particularly visible on an x86 with jit, everything amiga is there as fast as it gets, but may be a showstopper with a slower ppc, especially if no jit is enabled.

so this isnt a fair comparison,. you would have to compare fastest os4 native hardware (x1k) with fastest aros native hardware (some x64). guess which would beat the other hands down in the very area you mention, namely when it comes to odyssey, or in particular java script (aros has most current webkit core in its odyssey and uses java script jit)

on the other hand neither a fair comparison on genuine amiga hardware may be done, as only aros runs there, while os4 needs ppc extensions. but suffice to mention, that on an amiga os4 needs mor than 70mb ram and few times faster cpu only to boot to desktop, while aros requires some 6 or 7 mb, or even 1,5 without the s-s and boots even with an 68000 if you have enough patience. ;)

Quote:

What does os flow mean to you?

im not sure if i understand correctly, but for me the better os is the lesser it comes in the way. ideally os should be completely invisible. thats probably why morphos desktop is called "ambient".

Quote:

you remind me more of those who got the cd32 than anything

i think an a2k, a3k and a4k back in the day were productivity machines. and truly so. i belong to the majority who couldnt spend as much and it wasnt always neccessary. till 2000 all i have ever had was a600 and a1200 (with 060 admittedly). and while it might not be enough for the full scope of my productivity needs, it was much. today neither an x1k nor an aros x86 nor a morphos mac can be considered full fledged productivity sytems. i couldnt do with them much more than with my amigas, therefore i dont see a reason to bother with them. but im not questioning your choice.

Everyone, that thought about ScummVM made me go to interesting places.

How big is ScummVM compared to Amiga? look at that left side of that pic (http://s18.postimg.org/pfnlqmp21/screen_ab.jpg) - it is everywhere. It is not just everywhere, you know what you will get with scummvm when you use it. You know it will continue to support more and more titles because it can due to great portability and because it has a similar community to ours of users and developers.

I then rememberd about a way I explained Amiga to a friend of mine on Facebook. I posted something that the X1000 was sold out where in my country they don't even know it existed much like anything that isn't mainstream. She then commented: "why does that surprive you? they still drink instant coffee here!". My first instinct was to say how right she was and that Amiga was the real deal. Then something else occured to me - what is the difference between coffee and computing? you can invest some funds in getting a great brand of coffee (if you don't mind it rellying on exploited labour all over the world) and you don't need to use that instant stuff. What is that great brand in computing? I think something around silicon graphics or any other machine that costs like a car or maybe even a house. The Amiga was that instant coffee in a very good way - it allowed people that could have never had access to coffee to get it. It maybe even did one better - used the power of the market and getting to the average joe's house, while people were learning and being creative until it could claim it was the real deal and not those super-computers, to the point it was used everywhere and even in Nasa.

How can I settle between those 2 notions? well, this is an open source thread. The way it was described here was like a technicality - you open up the platform and that is it. Even IBM want to open its hardware platform with openpower in an unprecedented way. The thing is, those 2 examples show you what collaboration can achieve together with portability in a way that doesn't make you lose your special character or identity, and that reaching the everyday man or woman and presenting them with something different can be its own reward both metaphorically and substantially. Amiga IS everywhere right now. So what is the current situation? that it is eveywhere like it is scummvm not as a way of approaching computing and not being something people have never seen before. The old Amiga could be that because there are always advantages to being first. What about continuing something? does the same rules apply? should it be about being a "first" or being continueslly interesting and mind engaging?

Open sourcing something like parts of Amiga is a place where the theory must tryiumph over practicality. It should really be something mind blowing that changes whatever you run it on - or run through it, or not at all. If scummvm is a carrier for old school adventure gaming provided everywhere and with new ways to play those old school games - that is Amiga currently. Amiga can't be a carrier for a certain way of old school computing - that approach should serve Amiga. To bring a certain level to all places you can run it and to get that real deal feeling provided to the everyday man and woman, that instant Amiga feeling, you need to also get that special hardware. That is not added power or a wider used isa. Because this time Amiga should be about creating its own feelings through you. Open sourcing some of it can be like a navigator or a lighthouse, it can't tell you where to go and it can't tell others to come to you. That requires a unique connection between the people and technology. You want power? maybe you should look more to Andy Warhol than to the cpu of any isa. That is something smartphones don't have.

Last edited by Srtest on 01-Dec-2016 at 12:10 AM.

@wawa

You are talking about os4 running facebook with oddysey with one core at 1800 MHz (an average speed about 10 years ago) and do it easily in a way that would bring a similar pc to its knees, and you take it for granted? you say that on the pc it would be more powerful but how something that does well what it supposed to do can be more powerful? what is the point in getting something that perform great in 30fps to 45? well I guess that is exactly the point that you can say Aros is so small but to run that facebook like on the X1k you need a quad pc so what's small about it? perhaps after saying you care about 68k you turn to measure it in pc measurements which means to force your way with brute force to allow something to cope.

As far as what "beats" what, I already said that a review has issues concerning the basis of comparison so that automatically brings us to a much more subjective realm where I claim 4.1 doesn't need all that bloat to cope with most tasks in a fluid way, and then it can only benefit in specific tasks with added power and that power can come from the gpu as much as the cpu - just like in the Amiga of old.

_________

Now about being "small" and "invisible": from one side that is a Linux philosophy i don't share and from the other that doesn't goes with Amiga simplicity.
I'm not going to go into what is small and lightweight like Linux users like to argue about, just that eventually you need something to get it done and if you start "small" and then end up big by adding more and more stuff then what's so small about it? after a certain size (and current 4.1 is as small as it gets - hardly half a gigabyte in a terabyte world) you work more for a certain theory and philosophy than for what is needed and reasonable.
Regarding invisible, the os is there - you can't deny it so why would you? you still need an os and that is more apparent than ever concerning the fact that more software is hardware or microkernel based. Amiga's approach has always been not to hide it and so either go one way and prohibit you from changing anything for the better (ahmmm unlawful operation ahmmm ahmmm), or hiding everything so you never know what causes anything to work or not to work so you rely on a support from a central company (ahmmm somebody called someone on his iphone?). Amiga actually tried to make you a better user while letting go as soon as you got it so it was more about being minimalistic than invisible and that what os flow meant and what 4.1 does in its operation - Gets you from one "place" to another smoothly and without switching anything on you, making you wait for it (or requiring force so the operaion is completed). Maybe it cancelled the tools directory yet it is more a toolbox than ever (due to its clever reliance on the small part mentality maintained for years by great utilities long before some giant invented its glorious apps and store).

_________

Eventually you spent with that accelerator what we spent on the A4000 (the only thing I added was a scsi card + cdrom) and we talk about those machines from a consumer standpoint not neccesarily that of a user-creator. Long story short, getting that big machine can make sense financially just as getting that small machine and paying thousands for pc boxes that are worth nothing immediatly upon purchase. Then suddenly wanting that small cheap Amiga is hypocritial at best (not talking about you specifically). I mean if someone thinks there is value in spending all that monery over the years on the pc then why is he here (at least you say it is about 68k)? likewise, if someone thinks Amiga can only come in a cheap and small form factor then maybe he values Amiga just from a value for money (and for imaginary power) perspective (and what he can save) and not what it can give him - so he has no value for an AmigaOne machine, or nextgen or whatever Hyperion and A-EON are doing nowadays. Then he is solely a retro guy. At least you're honest about it and we meet halfway via emulation

Last edited by Srtest on 01-Dec-2016 at 11:07 PM.