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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
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Poll : Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Yes
No
Needs to be cheaper/better
86x/Arm is the answer
OS4.2 / Future software is more important
OS4 is dead
Yummy Pancakes
 
PosterThread
iggy 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 24-Mar-2017 19:14:33
#61 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@pavlor

I've never understood your desire to compare the two (Vampire2 and Tabor).
One will only run OS3.X and the other is designed to run OS4.

Not directly comparable.
And while I'm interested in a Vampire2 for my A2000, it in no way would be a substitute for my PPC hardware.

@BSzili

Quote:
...all the available software uses OpenGL and not OpenGL ES2


I never thought of it from a porting standpoint, but rather as a development tool.
But you have a point.

So what we really need is an improved implementation of OpenGL.

What version do you think is practical?

Last edited by iggy on 24-Mar-2017 at 07:20 PM.
Last edited by iggy on 24-Mar-2017 at 07:19 PM.

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wawa 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 24-Mar-2017 20:24:57
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
I wonder whether standalone Vampire will be cheaper and more compatible than Tabor...


as far as i remember tabor is not even very compatible with the current standard os4 binaries. and it can run 68k binaries only via emulation, where the currently available "highend" os4 systems are said to struggle in terms of speed and compatibility. however if you want to discuss running 68k under emulation, the cheapest, most compatible and efficient way is atill windows pc+winuae, as you know.

i dont kno, what standalone will cost, but given that all available vampire boards up till now were all considerably cheaper, i expect it to be a fair price for delivered features.

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Hans 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 24-Mar-2017 20:28:56
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@BSzili

Quote:

BSzili wrote:
@Hans

It's an alternative to MiniGL, which means existing programs using OpenGL are as slow as ever.

It's also a modern(ish) OpenGL implementation, albeit with the old legacy crud removed (hint: Regal could be used to get full desktop OpenGL, although the W3DN_SI shader compiler might need some more work first). I chose OpenGL ES 2 over desktop OpenGL so we could have modern OpenGL implementation in an acceptable timeframe.

As for MiniGL, I'd love to see it updated to use Warp3D Nova as a backend. However, I'm too busy with Warp3D Nova to take that on.** Come on people, you can't expect the same few developers to do everything.

Incidentally, best not consider MiniGL as "the OpenGL" for AmigaOS. If MESA + Gallium had panned out, then we'd be calling it a deprecated library for legacy software support. I personally see OpenGL ES 2 as the way forward instead of just an "alternative."


@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote:
@Hans

Yeah, but...(and I know I repeat this WAY too often), I want a four core X5000.

And Tabor should have been based on an e5500 cored cpu.

I know, a four core X5000 would be great. Nevertheless, the A1222 does lower the entry price, which will make it an easier buy for many.

Hans


** Emulating all the fixed pipeline's features is harder than it sounds.

_________________
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wawa 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 24-Mar-2017 20:31:03
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@iggy

Quote:
I've never understood your desire to compare the two (Vampire2 and Tabor).


to be fair, it was me, not pavlor, who brought that up.

Quote:
One will only run OS3.X and the other is designed to run OS4.


mark your words: "only".. could be considered other way around. tabor is designed to run... linux! then, by chance it also runs os4 to certain extent, not all keay features supported, but whatever. then, even if it doesnt run amiga software or os directly, it may run it to a certain extent 68k binaries via emulation.

whereas, vampire can cartainly run amiga os and applications as well as aros68k. natively.

Last edited by wawa on 24-Mar-2017 at 08:32 PM.

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Hans 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 24-Mar-2017 20:31:41
#65 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@pavlor

Quote:
I wonder whether standalone Vampire will be cheaper and more compatible than Tabor...


as far as i remember tabor is not even very compatible with the current standard os4 binaries. and it can run 68k binaries only via emulation, where the currently available "highend" os4 systems are said to struggle in terms of speed and compatibility. however if you want to discuss running 68k under emulation, the cheapest, most compatible and efficient way is atill windows pc+winuae, as you know.

Standard OS4 binaries run on Tabor. Yes, there's a performance hit due to the non-standard FPU, but the binaries do run.

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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wawa 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 24-Mar-2017 20:46:08
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:
Standard OS4 binaries run on Tabor. Yes, there's a performance hit due to the non-standard FPU, but the binaries do run.


so they run on winuae with os4 extension. yes, there is a performence hit, even a considerable one in comparison with 68k emulation on x86, not to talk of native code.

due to comparisons i have seen, the range of speeds of native binaries is, that 68k emulation on x86 is generally faster or equal than natively compiled ppc binaries on available range of os4 hardware, not to talk of tabor, and ppc emulation on x86 is least performant. considering this, why even to bother to compile anthying for ppc? either take 68k platform for compatibility and nnostalgy or x86/x64 for speed, i dont see what some ppc hardware can offer in this comparison, excpept if someone doesnt know what to do with all their money.

Last edited by wawa on 24-Mar-2017 at 08:46 PM.

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BSzili 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 24-Mar-2017 21:29:53
#67 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 447
From: Unknown

@Hans

This was not a jab at you, I understand the reasons why you chose OpenGL ES2, but this doesn't help the existing software that need OpenGL 1.x. It's true that you have an GL implementation, but virtually no software uses it.
MiniGL is "The OpenGL" implementation for OS4, simply because it's the only one available. As long as people don't use it, GLES2 remains an alternative instead of the way forward.

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tlosm 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 24-Mar-2017 21:48:24
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@wawa

all is relative from who did the jit.
a small example
qemu ppc kvm run abou 45% slower than the Mol kvm and mol is slower than classic.
euae jit made 109mips on g5 quad but classic with spoedometer in 68k code running in mol kvm is about 8x faster than euae jit in emulated 68k instructions.
we dont know how fast will be the fpu emulated instruction of os4 on tabor we will know only when the machine will be sold to the peoples.

Last edited by tlosm on 24-Mar-2017 at 09:50 PM.

_________________
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pavlor 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 24-Mar-2017 22:45:54
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9577
From: Unknown

@wawa

OS4 runs most WHDLoad games out of the box. Vampire still struggles to get basic compatibility...

Quote:
and ppc emulation on x86 is least performant. considering this, why even to bother to compile anthying for ppc?


Both 68k and PowerPC integer code runs at the same speed in WinUAE

Quote:
but given that all available vampire boards up till now were all considerably cheaper,


Wasn´t last price close to 300 EUR?

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Hans 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 24-Mar-2017 22:50:10
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@BSzili

Quote:

BSzili wrote:
@Hans

This was not a jab at you, I understand the reasons why you chose OpenGL ES2, but this doesn't help the existing software that need OpenGL 1.x. It's true that you have an GL implementation, but virtually no software uses it.

Okay, so who's up for adding a Warp3D Nova backend to MiniGL then?** I'm willing to support such efforts.

Quote:
MiniGL is "The OpenGL" implementation for OS4, simply because it's the only one available. As long as people don't use it, GLES2 remains an alternative instead of the way forward.

GLES2 is the way forward; you just don't know it yet.

Firstly, technologically it's a big step forward. Secondly, people are using it, although few have released their work yet.

Hans


** If anyone is going to take this on, then I'd recommend creating a separate library first because the existing data structures are unsuited for anything but legacy Warp3D. Later they could be merged into one library, with a common "loader" that chooses the right backend.

Last edited by Hans on 24-Mar-2017 at 10:52 PM.

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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tlosm 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 25-Mar-2017 5:56:11
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@Hans


Quote:
GLES2 is the way forward; you just don't know it yet


true hans,
on linux gles2 are used for the system gui rendering, for video play and video acceleration for the webgl and html5 media for virtual machine gpu and for game ;-P

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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BSzili 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 25-Mar-2017 6:57:08
#72 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 447
From: Unknown

@Hans

Hmm, I think we are talking in circles. I hope that the above is not the "official" stance of A-Eon, i.e. paying for the Warp3D Nova drivers and GLES2, but expecting the community to provide an OpenGL implementation for it
Anyway I'm looking forward to the new GLES2 software, it should give OS4 some edge over the other NG offerings.

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kas1e 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 25-Mar-2017 7:28:09
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3549
From: Russia

@Hans
Quote:

Okay, so who's up for adding a Warp3D Nova backend to MiniGL then?** I'm willing to support such efforts.


I think the only real choice currently, its Daniel (that one who make opengles.library). Just aeon should pay him for :) Because BSZili is right : all os4 software currently use opengl and problem is to have at least them to speed them up. And that probably can be done by making stub library "minigl.library" whch will transfer all calls or to opengles.library, or to warp3d nova directly.

But in both cases , the man who know how to do so its your, and daniel . For Danel i thin it will be twice easy after he do opengles.library and know all warp3d nova things. Communiti will do nothng in that terms i think.

I just fear that aeon/mattew think that havng that "stub" for speeding up old minigl have no big sense, as you explain him that "opengls is the future", so he may consider it is not so important, but , from user's perspective (i mean currently), speed up currentl minigl via such "stub" will help muuuch more. Sure opengles is good, but its all about perspective and future. Right now we have lots of minigl stuff, 70% of which never will be recompiled. So, having new version of minigl.library which "just" transfer all the stuff to warp3d nova , will be _very_ welcomed. And probably aeon/mattew should recondiser importancy of it , but, if Hans will say him that is not that important, and only opengles is, then he will not :)

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imagodespira 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 25-Mar-2017 7:40:42
#74 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Sep-2009
Posts: 256
From: Germany

@BSzili

I am with you ;)

I really hope for a MiniGL based on Nova, from users view we could get some ports or at least a slightly faster gameplay on existing games.

GLES2 is nice for us as developers with an own game engine. But as you see, we don´t have released anything and it might need a year to finish a first small 3D game. MiniGL stuff is what we could have NOW instead of waiting for some devs who build some own games ;)

GLES2 will improve some things for us but also here we have some bottlenecks (in the whole System, Hardware, Driver, AmigaOS) that may prevent us for using all existing features in a decent speed.
So at least our first games will be slightly more features than in a MiniGL version but not the big improvement (ok, we get 3-4x more FPS)
All shaders needs power and work to implement -> time for us.
It is a huge afford to develop within our limited bounds, to find ways to get the best result (polygon limitation, object limitations, textures, DMA speed etc.). On my PC it runs also without doing much work, we have to spend much work in optimization (many month in Blender ;) ) which is fun but eats a lot of time (same on Emotion videoplayer without hardware videodecoding).

Don´t get me wrong, i like NOVA and GLES2 but if i see how long we need for a first little game, for users it might be good to use it now at least with older existing games and not only rotating logos or cows ;)

For "Regal": I am not shure, but a new Wrapper/Librery between the existing technics could bring us new limitations, speed issues and more time to spend for development.

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kas1e 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 25-Mar-2017 7:50:06
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3549
From: Russia

@imagodespira

Quote:

For "Regal": I am not shure, but a new Wrapper/Librery between the existing technics could bring us new limitations, speed issues and more time to spend for development.


It for sure will have some limitation and bugs, as well as it will works over opengles2.library, and not directly via warp3d nova, which mean one more layer inbetween, which mean slowing things down for sure.

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imagodespira 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 25-Mar-2017 7:59:19
#76 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Sep-2009
Posts: 256
From: Germany

@kas1e

Quote:
It for sure will have some limitation and bugs, as well as it will works over opengles2.library, and not directly via warp3d nova, which mean one more layer inbetween, which mean slowing things down for sure.


... which could be a problem because we have enough bottlenecks already ;)

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wawa 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 25-Mar-2017 11:38:05
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@BSzili

Quote:
it should give OS4 some edge over the other NG offerings.


you know, aros has mesa 7 since ages. does that really matter? who knows..

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iggy 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 25-Mar-2017 11:57:09
#78 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@wawa

Quote:
you know, aros has mesa 7 since ages


Yes, that definitely matters. They do have OpenGL support that outshines the other NG OS'.

And the endian structure of the X86 variant has some advantages (not with Amiga software, but ports from other platforms...).

With deference to Hans, OpenGL ES does give us compatibility with a lot of new software including ports from Android.

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BSzili 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 25-Mar-2017 12:00:22
#79 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 447
From: Unknown

@wawa

It mattered for me. It made porting much easier, compared to the minimal and non standard compliant implementations. That's not relevant here though, since Mesa is an OpenGL implementation.
I was talking more in terms of the GLES2 software that Hans said are being in the works for OS4.

Last edited by BSzili on 25-Mar-2017 at 01:08 PM.

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wawa 
Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market?
Posted on 25-Mar-2017 12:13:25
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@iggy

Quote:
And the endian structure of the X86 variant has some advantages (not with Amiga software, but ports from other platforms...).


you know, aros mesa does even work on 68k, even though as it can only be tested with software rasterizer under uae it is glacially slow, and therefore, as there is no practical usage due to lack of hardware, none has cared to fix all endian issues, but the demos basically work.

in conclusion it shouldnt be an issue to port gallium/mesa to big endian like ppc. linux ppc mesa 10 is working (with some handicaps) as far as i remember.

Last edited by wawa on 25-Mar-2017 at 01:20 PM.

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