@OlafS25

Quote:

Additional of course the strange election system in USA inherited from britain.

Oh my, I don't think I can afford another rant about the British, and we did inherit a few decent things from them.
But the use of an Electoral College...well that cost Clinton the election, because she won the popular vote.
You've got to remember, we are a Republic, NOT a Democracy.

And personally, I like Obama, but the Affordable Care Act did not go far enough, and the lack of inclusion of a public option I blame primarily on Republicans in Congress (who only seem interested in protecting the interests of the wealthy).

As to dislike of both Presidential candidates...yes, neither was (or is) particularly likable, BUT Trump is completely unsuited for the job.
And frankly, I feel he is quite a dishonest man.
As I said before, a disaster.

Those people who supported him...will be among those who pay for the decision, along with the rest of us that got dragged along into their mistake.

So, my advice to my European friends, don't shoot yourselves in the foot over frustrations with your politicians, or the flamboyant fruitcake you elect may be ruinous to your future.

@Overflow

On the proposed US budget...

Quote:

Military $622.6 Billion - 54%

Doesn't that seem extreme to ALL of you?
Over half?

Last edited by iggy on 08-Jun-2017 at 04:56 PM.
Last edited by iggy on 08-Jun-2017 at 04:55 PM.

@OlafS25

The heart of the problem wasn't false statistics around late '00s when the matter blew up. For example each and everyone knew right from the beginning that we traded a portion of our debt with future payable swaps with the aid of Goldman Sachs around late '90s. Hell, I knew it since it was being played at the national media back then. So, I doubt foreign politicians weren't aware of it. That alone reduced the debt by some figures which enabled us in return to enter eurozone. Therefore I find hypocritical that every foreign PM or Minister of Economics was suddenly socked around 2009. LOL, gimme a break.
Actual problem was that money which were being borrowed for decades were never really invested into anything. State was hiring in frenzy, salaries were going up, pensions as well, banks were loaning people to go for vacations in NY instead of promoting actual business plans, startup companies or leading innovation. So, Greek economy was being left far behind the competition each year and now cannot make a come back given that it's been squeezed even further by radical austerity measures.

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then in my view there should have been a clean solution, greece going bankrupt and leaving euro, the investors who were giving all the money without thinking should have taken the losses, if necessary nationalised by governments.

Foreign debt was mostly at the hands of German and French Banks. These were the so called Investors. I remember that this scheme was proposed around 2010 but never materialized due to unwillingness from all parties involved (including the Greek government) because the Banks would have taken all the damage. Instead the debt was bought from national governments leaving the Banks with clean hands and from then and onward, basically, we owe directly to citizens throughout eurozone. Needless to state however that I agree with your proposed solution but I think that now is way too late to discuss it. Still, in any case, the sad aspect is that any given ez citizen (be it German, French, Portuguese, Spaniard etc) will or might have to pay for another ones fault :(

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greece that is not really willing to reform and change started a long time starving.

I am not sure what you mean by "reforms" but the only reforms that we have gotten so far - and have been all been proposed/enforced explicitly by the EU, EZ, IMF - are major cuts at pensions, ultra labor deregulation that pretty much allows any boss to treat his employee as a modern slave, salaries that are next to joke, taxes are sky rocketing and been imposed to pretty much anything, hospitals are without any doctors since all social budget has been reduced next to zero, kids are fading inside schools because they do not eat bread at home and of course whatever land or public service is owned by the state is being sold in foreign funds for pennies. TBH, I would be unwilling to "reform" as well.

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@OlafS25

"germany has both record low unemployment and high numbers of people employed in absolute numbers
"
It seems too that Germany is a country were 22,5% of peoples have a low salary.

https://www.lesechos.fr/16/12/2016/LesEchos/22341-032-ECH_un-salarie-allemand-sur-quatre-a-un-bas-salaire--contre-un-sur-dix-en-france.htm

Thanks to others european countries, Germany can have a very good exportation rate (essentially to Europe) but if, like Macron and others european liberals, all europeans have the same salary than germans... Do you think that Germany economic growth will be substainable
without PIGS(F) customers ?

Strange to write that on an amigan forum

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@zzd10h

When more than two thirds of the World's population lives on less than $2 a day, and we are now in a Global economy, are you surprised that wages are suppressed?

I'd hardly blame German exports for this trend.

Although, I would like to see a comparison between the productivity of German and French workers.
Having already seen the figures on German productivity, I would tend to believe that they might hold an advantage.

So what do we do?
Step back toward protectionism?
How will the increase in prices balance with any increase in employment?

@iggy

I didn't blame german export for wage decrease in Europe, I simply said that when wages will be low in all Europe, German economy will maybe have problem.


"Although, I would like to see a comparison between the productivity of German and French workers.
Having already seen the figures on German productivity, I would tend to believe that they might hold an advantage."

And the reply is... no, no advantage, around the same, even better in France.

http://piketty.blog.lemonde.fr/files/2017/01/PikettyBlogLeMonde03012017DataF1F9FR_Page_1-900x636.



Or check OCDE graphs here :
https://data.oecd.org/fr/lprdty/pib-par-heure-travaillee.htm


"Step back toward protectionism?"
I am more utopist than that.

Last edited by zzd10h on 08-Jun-2017 at 05:51 PM.

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@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote: You've got to remember, we are a Republic, NOT a Democracy.

Oh, how I love that little tidbit.

No go and translate those 2 word into english and come back to explain what the real-world differemce is

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@zzd10h

Well there is a inbalance internally of the EuroZone. Germany is importing parts at low cost from former eastern bloc countries, that has low worker protection and weak unions, and then in turn sell finished cars at a permium.




Quote:

Balance of payments The euro area balance of payments summarises all the transactions between euro area residents and non-residents, on a monthly and quarterly basis. Transactions between euro area residents are excluded. The balance of payments consists of: the goods and services account primary and secondary income accounts the capital account the financial account

As you can imagine, Germany has no intrest in changing the fundementals of the Eurozone, and Greece is feeling that reality.

Last edited by Overflow on 08-Jun-2017 at 07:46 PM.

@Kronos

Its huge, in a Representative Republic rules/laws are created by elected officials, whereas a Democracy referendums are passed approving or disapproving proposed legislation.

And, to all others, my apologies to the French and the German people, who appear to be damned productive.
I do get the idea now, who will we sell our exports to if some countries in Europe are worse off?

Well, if we focus on quality, like many German manufacturers, customers will still come to us in preference.

My country has a huge deficit with China, so what cars do you think the our Chinese University students buy?
A hint, they're quite expense.

This is all about redistribution right now guys, once our competitors get up to our standard of living, they are going to require goods and services.
We're already seeing this with the Chinese (and that particular group has good taste).

@Overflow

Quote:

Germany is importing parts at low cost from former eastern bloc countries, that has low worker protection and weak unions, and then in turn sell finished cars at a permium.

Basic economics there.
I'd be surprised if they were limiting themselves to those countries.

So they should buy where its more expensive?
That would increase their costs, which would then be passed on to the consumer.

Perhaps your unions are about to learn the same lesson ours have.

Last edited by iggy on 08-Jun-2017 at 08:27 PM.

And for those calling out the greek worker/man and woman in the street;

https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS

Very few work as much as them. Reality is sometimes stranger than the fiction presented by austerity proponents.

@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote: @Kronos Its huge, in a Representative Republic rules/laws are created by elected officials, whereas a Democracy referendums are passed approving or disapproving proposed legislation.

Hint, both words mean the same, but a real "republic" aka "democracy" just won't work when your have a population in the millions, complex issues and decisions to be made on the spot. That why (allmost) all republics/democrcies are ruled by representatives. Just the way how those are elected and what powers they have in detail differs.

Just a small reminder, German system is way different to the US, but guess what word the full name of this country includes

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@Overflow

That link fails here, but I guess it's the same statistic that has been handed round for years.

It only tells how many hours the greek punch, not how many are actually productive.
It also fails to put productivity into relation to wages earned.

The greek problem is (and allways was) that to many "work" jobs that create no value (overstaffed public sector) and that those that create value aren't productive enough.

Lots of reason for this:
- corruption
- slow&unreliable legal system
- erratic behaviour of the bureaucracy
- random (political) strikes putting the whole country at a halt
- insufficient skillset of the workforce

Those are the reason why noone in the past decades invested in Greece outside tourism and natural resources.

Want to change that ?
Either get better as all the other countries on the balkan.
Or accept wages in line with the other countries on the balkan.

Choice is with greek people......

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@Kronos

Well, here is a very short commentary, and it touches on overarching policies preventing adjusting your own economy within the Eurozone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpUh_ejubyY

And do you have stats on the actual impact of strikes? I tend to favour strikes, as its what got us the worker rights we took for granted, and is loosing rapidly.
Ive been checking off around 2000 hours each year for several years, and what Im seeing politicians/corporate leaders are doing is pitting workers against workers; "You are only working 1500 hrs a year. look at Mexicans, they are pushing 2200! Be competative, so I can get a second buissnissjet!".
Its what gets you facism, cause there is no outlet of frustration, when normal citizens feel they have no control of their lives anymore.

Add to that, the bailout of criminal mismanagment of banks, taking on massive leverage that exceeded countries BNP, and you have 2008 crash. If you cheat on your taxes, or make a mistake, you get fines or prison. If you crash the economy for billions/trillions, you get a bonus.

Last edited by Overflow on 08-Jun-2017 at 09:55 PM.

@Overflow

Strikes are fine when the target the employer over issues that employer can fix (higher wages, shorter hours etc).

Strikes become a problem when a small group cripples a whole economy over something that should have been solved by voting in different politician in the last election.

Like greek sailors striking on the ferries over retiremnet age, something which was a even more common thing before the crisis hit and is to an lesser extent still happening in France or Italy.

Last edited by Kronos on 08-Jun-2017 at 10:05 PM.

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@Kronos

I agree with the vote should decide the policital direction, but increasingly the politicians pull in the same direction, regardless of rhetoric.

Which is why you get strikes, and if left unchecked/not adressed, you will have more extreme counterreaction.

Norway keeps getting top grades with regards to being the best country to live in, equality etc etc, but increasingly the neo-liberal direction has infested every major party.
Politicians say one thing, and do the opposite. Honestly I never really noticed it in the past, but after I started supplimenting my daily dose of information thru standard TV news with more indepth commentary; the term "the Emperor has no clothes!" has gotten much more real.

@Kronos

Quote:

Hint, both words mean the same

No, they don't.
Although virtually all governments that consider themselves democracies fall somewhere between these two definitions.
The fact that Israel is somewhat more democratic than the United States bugs me.

I guess what would really bug some of our posters is that I don't have a problem with the word "socialist".

And btw, screw any of you that doesn't think healthcare ought to be a right in a civilized society.

@Kronos

Quote:

Just a small reminder, German system is way different to the US, but guess what word the full name of this country includes

Words...that does seem to be all politics comes down to.

Last edited by iggy on 08-Jun-2017 at 10:26 PM.

@Daedalus

Quote:

What about if I feel upset that my taxes are paying for the treatment of whatever conditions you or your family members have suffered from? I'm sure you'd change your tune if you developed ED - or would you just accept it as God's will?

I'd pay for it myself as should anyone that needs it. It's not a human right to get 'it' up. We simply can't afford EVERY drug for EVERY condition being made available for free. Just like the newly developed serum that stops gay men getting AIDS shouldn't be available on prescription either. If you don't want to get AIDS don't partake in promiscuous gay sex without a condom! The choice is there. Why we should have to pay for that and the murder of babies amongst other things is beyond me. If someone wants to murder a fully sized human they hire a hitman on the black market or do it themselves (and pay the price in jail). If it's an unborn baby the NHS gladly fits the bill and cleans up the considerable mess. They only thing they don't bother to do is properly council the patient/mother as to the mental anguish they will feel and the possible guilt down the line. The joys of centralised 'FREE' health care!

Last edited by BigD on 08-Jun-2017 at 11:52 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 08-Jun-2017 at 11:42 PM.

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@BigD

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ust like the newly developed serum that stops gay men getting AIDS

Does it not work on heterosexuals?

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If you don't want to get AIDS don't partake in promiscuous gay sex without a condom!

Also don't get raped, be born to a mother with HIV or any number of other reasons why someone might contract HIV through no fault of their own.

P.S. Seeing as you didn't bother attempting to answer my question about gender reassignment. Link. It's Iran.

@BigD

"stops gay men getting AIDS"
"If you don't want to get AIDS don't partake in promiscuous gay sex without a condom!"

oh your fucking god ! unbelievable to read that in 2017.

Your christ is dead young, no ? whit all his mates around him, maybe because of AIDS ?

this thread is magic...

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@zzd10h

Take a deep breath,everything going to be fine. Someone has a different opinion than you.
( The apostles referred to as mates, I love that one.)

As far as the ED malady is concerned, probably not the worst that can happen to a man. It only gets us in trouble more times than not😏

Last edited by Signman on 09-Jun-2017 at 12:29 AM.

@Signman

Yes, my, this has gotten out of hand.
Personally, I'd rather see my tax money going to heal the sick, than to buy more overpriced weapons like the F22.

We send our troops out with poorly armored vehicles, and guns that aren't suited to long range engagement (.223s don't cut it), BUT we will squander the majority of the previously mentioned 54% of the US budget on crap that doesn't directly affect our troops (and merely enriches arms manufacturers).

So its unreasonable to expect something to be done about health care when we can spend recklessly on hardware to kill people?
THAT is f'd up people.

Your priorities are just not right.

AND, btw, yes I'D pay for someone else's ailing mother. You wouldn't?

How about 100% healthcare for the elderly (in the US 100% medicaid with NO deductibles), and negotiated healthcare for everyone else?