@BigD

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Hell is the absence of God.

Just on this. Also known as separation from God. If this is so, can God be responsible for torture? Or even causing it? If God is absent and/or separate from hell then logically He shouldn't be interacting with it. God is described as all powerful, sure, but if God is absent from hell then He shouldn't be involved with it at all. What then, or who, then causes this torture?

@Hypex

Translated from English to Arabic to Danish to Spanish to English:

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A man's fish, an ant, or a fox named De, is the middle English origin of our deer word. In its ancient English form Dole, the word refers to any animal, including members of the deer family, and continues to do so in Both English and Chinese, although it also gains its own sense of "island". By the end of the average English period, about 1500, the overall feeling was gone. In Shakespeare's works, for example, the word deer usually refers to the antlers we call deer today. However, in the words of Edgar, the character in King Lear, the early and broad meaning was retained, which Shakespeare occasionally wrote between 1603 and 1606. After being unjustly declared by his father, Edgar disguised himself as a madman, living in the misery of the countryside in the name of poor Tom. When he later met his father, who was blind and unrecognizable to his son, "Tom" explained that he lived to eat frogs and frogs and anything else he could catch: "But mice and mice, such fawns/Tom's food had been seven years. "Here, such a fawn seems to mean "other birds. Perhaps found in the wild, the word is believed to have originated in an uncertified old English word, game, consisting of the ancient English or wild man 'wild game' and the lateral name, equivalent to a modern English suffix. Brie is therefore "the former Animel-Ness," so said. German-style words, similar to ancient English deer and modern British deer, still have the general sense of "animal". "

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@BigD

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Pretty funny your comments about natural selection just being a primary process of evolution! So the unprovable part of the theory you maintain is the truth while natural selection which IS actually observable through finches / human skin colour etc you simply relegate to a process linked to evolution when it is no such thing as an offspring becoming a different species to the parents will never happen by your own admission!

You really do not get it. Debating with religious nuttjobs are pointles.
If you want proof, that there is no all-loving god, then most major cities have a special place you can go. It's a wing or ward in most major hospitals, a place where you find innocent children dying from cancer and other horrible diseases. Please tell me if that is the work of an all-loving and caring god.
Since you do find your answers snd solutions in the bible, then what is your view on slavery, eating shrimps, pork, divorced women and gay people?
Please elaborate.
The bible is a fairytale.

One more question, if god is all powerfull, can god create a stone, that god can not lift?

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@Yssing

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We did evolve from single celled organisms, but evolution takes time, a lot of time, billions of years. The fact that some people can't comprehend that fact, does not make it false.

What makes you think BigD doesn't comprehend it?

I have this idea that the earth has been destroyed and recreated multiple times. The fact that I can't prove it, doesn't mean it's false. Can you disprove it?


I see the evolution word threw around a lot, without defining what is meant. From the context here, it would be morphing from one tiny creature into into another larger creature, over a large period of time.

However, you bring up one problem, billions of years cannot be observed. The fact of the matter is, pun intended, that any theory or idea requiring billions of years simply cannot be proven. It doesn''t matter how smart any one is or how many Ph.D's they have earned, no one can do 88 MPH in a DeLorean and go back in time to prove any of it.

For many years I believed in evolution. This was likely helped by the brainwashing mantra of "Evolution is a fact." This is as factual as appending "And that's a fact onto the end of a sentence" in order to try and prove something is a fact. No, it doesn't. We could switch it around say God is a fact. Such a sentence doesn't prove God is a fact either. Same structure, different meaning.

I don't quite recall where I was taught evolution. School would be the logical choice but I don't recall being formally taught the subject. I liked science at school but to my recall I never diced open any biological samples in class. I did have this book that lived by my bedside I used to read that was all about evolution. It looked like it was from the 1900's with a musty smell and had these black and white pictures of all these past creatures. It used to fascinate me and I do recall finding the imagery somewhat romantic and I would imagine how things used to be.

But over around ten years ago I felt somewhat stuck. I realised that I believed in evolution, over billions of years, not because it was proven to be true, but because I had been brainwashed. And still, I couldn't shake it off, because I was still convinced it was unshakeable. That it was fact. That there was overwhelming evidence.

So I looked into it. I read information that supported it and information against it. Eventually it all broke down. I had educated myself about it, instead of living in ignorance, and only buying it because everybody else did and I was expected to do the same. One is reason cited above, the billions of years, that cannot be tested or verified. So I had to throw the shackles off.

A lot of people on the the net try and convince others that to be a logical and reasonable person they must deny the bible and agree with evolution. That there is ample evidence evolution occurred over billions of years, and that there is no evidence of Adam and Eve being around circa 6,000 years ago. When I think about this, I think they are fooling themselves. If we claim to be logical and reasonable, with regard to what can be scientifically proven, then both of these items in the past cannot be proven either way. For example, we cannot prove that Adam and Eve walked around 6,000 years ago and we cannot prove that 6,000,000 years ago even existed. We can give all the evidence we want, background radiation, measuring light from distant galaxies, other dating methods, anything, but without verifying it, it can never be absolutely proven. In all likely hood the earth was spinning around 6K years ago.

You may disagree, fully or otherwise, you have that right . But I like to think about things like this for myself, including what ideas people have, and not go with the status quo because the majority does. For me, it would both be ignorant to buy into popular ideas just because the next guy does, as much as it would be to buy into an idea just because I liked it, without researching it.

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A perfect god should not have to sacrifice his only son, to forgive our sins, they could just have been forgiven.. right

That sounds rather lazy. Why should people be forgiven if they don't acknowledge wrong doing and have any remorse? That's like a slap on the wrist and on your way. Mercifully ignorant.

Courts already do this now. Some are punished and others let free. Please, don't encourage them!

Last edited by Hypex on 21-Dec-2019 at 01:26 PM.
Last edited by Hypex on 21-Dec-2019 at 01:24 PM.

@Hypex

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God is described as all powerful, sure, but if God is absent from hell then He shouldn't be involved with it at all. What then, or who, then causes this torture?

Church Lady knows the answer!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_mePjkQW_c


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I have this idea that the earth has been destroyed and recreated multiple times.

Detroit has been anyway. And maybe Huddersfield.

Last edited by bison on 21-Dec-2019 at 04:20 PM.

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@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Translated from English to German to Luxembourgish to Igbo to English:

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I HAVE ABS OF STEEL

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"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@Yssing

I'll try to be serious, for one post anyway.

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It's a wing or ward in most major hospitals, a place where you find innocent children dying from cancer and other horrible diseases. Please tell me if that is the work of an all-loving and caring god.

This is all the result of the fall of man. God has nothing to do with it. Genesis chapters 1 - 3.

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The bible is a fairytale.

The Bible is a myth, but one that happens to be true, according to Tolkien.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzBT39gx-TE

This conversation never actually happened, at least not in this form. It's constructed from bits and pieces from the writings of both men. If you want to read the original conversations, then you'd have to read quite a few books.

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One more question, if god is all powerfull, can god create a stone, that god can not lift?

God is all powerful, but he is constrained by his own nature, and by his own law. All of this is in the Bible, but you have to actually look for it. The "Can God make a stone he cannot lift" is the oldest canard in the book!

Last edited by bison on 21-Dec-2019 at 04:12 PM.

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@bison

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This is all the result of the fall of man. God has nothing to do with it.

But all of mans sins are forgiven, you know, Jesus who died and all that. So why should children be made to suffer for the mistakes of adults?

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@Yssing

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Yssing wrote: @bison [quote] So why should children be made to suffer for the mistakes of adults?

FUN!

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@bison

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We'll just have to give up on this discussion, I'm afraid, since we're miles apart and not likely to find any common ground. I'm very sorry that you're such an angry person

That's a pretty transparent way to concede that you was being deliberately obtuse, although to be fair it was very transparent all along; was never going to be anything but.

And who said Im an angry person? Stupidity annoys me, and I wasnt coping with my Dads recent passing, or my GFs attempted suicide, or my Mums terminal illness, or my sister being suicidal and vanishing, or my nephew getting kidnapped well, but for the most part Im an excessively happy, albeit not tolerant person.
I defy anyone to not have such a large volume of terrible things happen concurrently make them less tolerant of stupidity.
I can be aggressive and annoyed in regards to anything Amiga, if that's where you're getting that from, but that's because it's a cornucopia of stupidity where those with common sense are trolled or frowned upon for offering insight.
It's bat-shit-crazy and irritating.

@BigD

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The computers / watches / machines get designed by designers and creators using hard work, thought and sweat over planned periods of time NOT by trial and error

Oh boy....
This is one of those cases where a person is too ignorant to realize how ignorant they are.

Guess how things like transistor layout, materials used, volumes of cache, instruction set
and optimization and so on and so forth happen and are settled on?
They TRY them, even when basic designs are done.
Over and over again until it's fine tuned and optimal, removing errors or problems along the way.

Trial and error.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 22-Dec-2019 at 03:44 AM.
Last edited by fishy_fis on 22-Dec-2019 at 03:42 AM.

@fishy_fis

Friend Fishy!!

Why do you go the shit market, buy a can of shit with a picture of shit on it, open it and smell shit, eat it, and then complain it tastes like shit?

It's Amigaworld! Originally founded by David Doyle!
A cornucopia of stupidity is what you should expect, what you will get, what you shouldn't complain about.

FROM THE WOODEN, GOLD-LINED, FINELY POLISHED DESK OF
MEGA_RJ_MICAL

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@Yssing

Quote:

But all of mans sins are forgiven, you know, Jesus who died and all that. So why should children be made to suffer for the mistakes of adults?

Everyone, including children, suffer because we are born into a fallen world. And it's not even close to being fair: some really evil people prosper, while the innocent suffer. My pastor's first daughter died four hours after she was born, and it wasn't because they were bad people; it was simple, indiscriminate misfortune.

It's unfortunate that some Christians with good intentions say things that are not true, such as "God is in control." He's not -- not on planet earth. If he is, then either he's malevolent or incompetent, and he is neither. If God is making children suffer, then he should be in hell. But all of this continues to give people time to repent. Jesus did not immediately fix everything, but he is the way back to God. If God intervened immediately and sorted this all out, he would have to judge people immediately, and a lot of people are not ready for that (2 Peter 3:9). This is first-century Christian doctrine, not the pablum one sometimes hears on Christian TV.

Last edited by bison on 22-Dec-2019 at 06:13 AM.

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@bison

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It's unfortunate that some Christians with good intentions say things that are not true, such as "God is in control." He's not

then it is not god. god is omnipotent by definition. and if he is omnipotent but denies responsibility for evil then it discredits him even more.

all these subjects like above (theodizee) or paradox of omnipotence, mentioned above, have been and are being discussed to death with no satisfactory conclusions.

the idea of god is self contradictory by our everyday logic and causality. but there are or may be other logics, and this logic being theoretically creation of god may not affect his deeds. but then all concepts we have of him aint valid, as they try to answer to human comprehension and imagination. such a god would be beyond qualities such as love, justice, goodness, whatever attributes we like and try to equip him with.

personally i probably dont care. whether god exists or not doesnt change anything. its like light, whether its considered to be particles or waves it is what it is.

@wawa

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then it is not god. god is omnipotent by definition. and if he is omnipotent but denies responsibility for evil then it discredits him even more.

God is not the god of this world; Lucifer is. I say Lucifer instead of Satan because I don't want to sound like Church Lady.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4, emphasis mine:
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3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Last edited by bison on 22-Dec-2019 at 04:20 PM.

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@bison

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God is not the god of this world; Lucifer is.

neither gnostic approach explains anything better. it only delegates the problem further in the background. the issue remain the same.

@wawa

btw, isnt it actually against the tos to discuss religion and politics in here?
which is actually ironic because thgese are the subjects this site must have been crated for. just not the regular faith and politics.

@Yssing

GPS does not work after about 400 miles off shore. Just ask the passengers of flight MH-370.

You choose to believe it's satellite based but like I said - that is religion for you.

Along the US' east coast there are some LORAN-like towers that lets it work farther.

Last edited by Lou on 22-Dec-2019 at 09:01 PM.

Lets see...

*The bible is a leading document
*Lucifer/Satan rules the world
*GPS is land based
*Evolution is a lie
*The world is only 6k years old

Quite a distinct vibe here

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@Lou

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GPS does not work after about 400 miles off shore.

you tried that for sure? because sometimes it doesnt work here indoors very well. probably because im in europe. gps is an american thing after all, aint it?

Last edited by wawa on 23-Dec-2019 at 02:10 AM.