@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @bhabbott For 1993, the problem is the total price for 68030 @ 50 Mhz accelerator with A1200 against a similarly priced 486SX-33-based PC.

The problem is that 486SX system couldn't run Amiga programs. And could you connect it to your big-screen TV in composite? Thought not. :(

Quote:

https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf/PC_World_9306_June_1993.pdf Gateway Party List, Page 72 of 314 4SX-33 with 486-SX 33Mhz, 4MB RAM, 170 MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1494 USD

5 ISA bus slots. No sound card or joystick port. Better add $300 for a good sound card and speakers. So the actual price for a gaming-ready system was more like US$1794.

In 1993 an A1200 with 120MB hard drive cost US$637, a Microbotics MBX1230XA with 50MHz 030 and 2MB RAM cost $454, and a 1942S multisync monitor with stereo speakers was $349 (Amiga World December 1993) for a total of $1440. That's a premium A1200 setup for US$354 less than the Dell! Add $229 for a 50MHz 68882 and 4MB RAM, and you will be seriously kicking that 486SX's butt in apps like raytracing and dtp that need floating point math and/or lots of RAM, and still be $125 cheaper!

"But why only $125?", you say. "Shouldn't the A1200 be a lot cheaper?". No. Commodore couldn't break the laws of physics. You want more hardware, you better expect to pay for it.

A more budget-minded Amiga system could dramatically reduce that price by having eg. a smaller hard drive, lower spec accelerator card or RAM board, and 1084S monitor or your own TV. Creative Computer's "Desktop Publisher System" came with a 60MB hard drive, 4MB FastRAM board with SCSI and 33 MHz FPU for $899, half the price of the Dell. Add a 1942S monitor for flicker-free hires and you are still $552 cheaper. Many other combos were available to suit the individual's requirements and budget.

But doing price comparisons is silly. It didn't matter how much you paid for a PC it still wouldn't run Amiga software. Still wouldn't have a 68k CPU and interesting custom chips to enjoy programming in asm. Still wouldn't have an efficient pre-emptive multitasking OS with intuitive GUI. And of course the Amiga couldn't run PC or Mac programs either (oh wait...).

Quote:

https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf/PC_World_9310_October_1993.pdf October 1993, Page 13 of 354, ALR Inc, Model 1 has a Pentium 60-based PC for $2495 USD

In New Zealand that would be over NZ$5000. Nobody was selling Pentium systems here in 1993.

In September 1995 (New Zealand PC World magazine, page 91) a basic Acer 'Acos' Pentium-75 system with 8MB RAM and no sound card cost NZ$3261 (equivalent to NZ$6262 today). That was a serious amount of cash.

Meanwhile you could upgrade your A1200 with a 50MHz 030 board and 4MB (Apollo 1230, CU Amiga July 1995, page 26) for £330 = ~NZ$660, 5 times less. That was the kind of money Amiga fans could afford, and this was still 2 years before you could run Doom on the Amiga.

Quote:

The Amiga solution is beaten by the Gateway solution.

Nope!

Quote:

https://youtu.be/oJgQJaqmPx4?t=795 Doom (low detail setting) on 386DX-40 with 128K cache

Fail.

Last edited by bhabbott on 03-Mar-2024 at 03:37 PM.

Cesare Di Mauro:

Quote:

You are NOBODY in the Amiga land, because you did NOTHING!

I never boosted about what I did.

My point was that when you try to scholar the world about Amiga
you very often talk a total Bullshit and lots of nonsense - and this is very tiring ...


And you are right, I not do that much on Amiga

I maybe wrote two or three dozens Cracktros and Demos,
a hand full games, 2 shooters, a voxel game, a simulation,
ported some games, wrote few new games using truecolor.

You can find some of my old stuff including the space shooter
RAVAGE on the ApolloOS CF.

A wrote a good number of tools,
did some Browser development participation,
did a little OS development (ApolloOS), driver development,
developed the Super-AGA chipset, developed the Apollo 68080 CPU,
invented AMMX instruction set, I maintain the new ASMONE version,
I wrote many patches for GCC to make 68K compilers better.
I developed AMiga hardware that is used by over ten thousand people.


For sure there are people did more than me on Amiga
but you are none of them.


Cesare but this is not about who did more...

I find it annoying that your a fake,
that you lie to Amiga forum people,
instead doing something for Amiga you "write on forums" how stupid Amiga designers are
and how stupid Commodore is and
you "mathematically" proof why Amiga developers did something wrong 30 years ago.

Why don't you get real and do something?

Last edited by Gunnar on 03-Mar-2024 at 05:08 PM.

@Gunnar

Quote:

this is 100% my point

It’s like a drinking game, only less precise…

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@Hammer

What was the fun with a PC in 1993? There were PCs at univ, they were the most boring computers available, and a dread to use. At least until Linux and the BSDs matured.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

You are both liars… so why do you care so much about each other, hm?

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@kolla

It's a complicated love thing, obviously. They should get a room and bang it all out. So to speak.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@bhabbott

Quote:

The problem is that 486SX system couldn't run Amiga programs.

Such as?

Quote:

And could you connect it to your big-screen TV in composite? Thought not. :(

For the PC during the 1990s, it was with 3rd party addon.

Amiga's TV connection is bundled in just as Atari ST has built-in MIDI ports. A500's color composite is via Commodore's modulator A520 addon.

486SX-25/486SX-33 delivered a superior "new 32-bit" 2.5D/3D gaming experience that can't be reached by a low-cost late 16-bit SNES.

For the 1992 era, the new "32-bit games" on PC is my main decision between my selection between Apple's Mac and Wintel PC.

Microsoft made the correct decision to fund the Doom port and DirectX API (e.g. DirectDraw) infrastructure for Windows 95. Windows 3.1.'s WinG and Win32S are just preview APIs for the transition. 1996 ActiveMovie was designed to provide MPEG-1 support for Windows 95.

Again, the Amiga platform can't survive with just a Video Toaster audience since the social media (e.g. YouTube in 2005) video content creation market doesn't exist. When social media video creation was starting, the Amiga NG hardware platforms didn't have non-linear editing software and out-of-the-box Firewire support.

In terms of out-of-the-box, wedge Amiga 68K SKUs do not have non-linear editing (NLE) software, hence the main bulk of Amiga owners couldn't be involved with big box Amiga's non-linear editing since Commodore didn't create economies of scale for Zorro II/III addon market. There's large price gap between A1200 and A4000/030. Commodore made sure the market segments were kept separate.

From 1995, 68060 CPU accelerated wedge Amigas can run NLE software via Shapeshifter's MacOS and Adobe Premiere 1.x to 4.x. LOL. This only promotes MacOS's NLE market.

Amiga CD32's MPEG decode card was useless for AmigaOS's general-purpose API access.

My early 2000s gaming PC's K7 Athlon XP/nForce 2/GeForce 4 Ti VIVO has Firewire, MPEG2 acceleration with general purpose MPEG2 API access, and non-linear editing software.
PC GpGPU vendors killed 3rd party MPEG2 add-on card vendors.

https://bjorn3d.com/2002/08/leadtek-winfast-a250-ultra-td-geforce4-ti4600-myvivo-edition/ (For the year 2002 context). My Leadtek WinFast GeForce 4 Ti 4200 VIVO was similar to the mentioned SKU. Out of the box, it comes with MGI VideoWave 5.0 Software for non-linear video editing and general-purpose OS API MEPG2 encode/decode acceleration. GeForce 4 Ti 4200 VIVO has S-Video support.

From the 68K era, Apple's focus on DTP which has a larger market and survived to this day. MacOS has Adobe Illustrator, Photoshop, and Premiere.

Not including open-source software, the creative software stack on my current gaming PCs is from Corel and Calkwalk.


Quote:

5 ISA bus slots. No sound card or joystick port. Better add $300 for a good sound card and speakers. So the actual price for a gaming-ready system was more like US$1794.

I used a low-cost Yamaha OPL3 (16-bit audio for Windows) ISA card with a Soundblaster Pro 2.0 clone.

From Byte 1993_11, Page 432, (prices are in USD)
MCT sound card is $49
Sound Blaster DLX is $89

An internal IDE CD-ROM drive is cheaper on a PC when compared to my A3000's external SCSI CD-ROM drive from Apple market.

Commodore 1084S's built-in speakers weren't good. Look in the mirror.

During the 1990s, I used a spare Realistic (Radio Shack)'s small SA-150 Integrated Stereo Amplifier with my Amiga. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJTy7B2bR-I

I sometimes connect my A500, A3000, and PC to the main HiFi system.

Commodore monitor's built-in speakers don't maximize Amiga's audio capabilities.

In modern times, I use Bose 700 Soundbar/Bass Module 700 or Bose TV Soundbar/Bass Module 500 or Logitech 906 THX or Yamaha Atmos with my gaming PCs and PiStormed A1200.

PiStormed A1200 is a high-bitrate MP3 jukebox capable, hence it has its place.

When computers gain a certain PCM audio capability, a HiFi system is recommended.

Quote:

In 1993 an A1200 with 120MB hard drive cost US$637, a Microbotics MBX1230XA with 50MHz 030 and 2MB RAM cost $454, and a 1942S multisync monitor with stereo speakers was $349 (Amiga World December 1993) for a total of $1440. That's a premium A1200 setup for US$354 less than the Dell!

Both Commodore's A1200 and Gateway 2000's PCs weren't specifically targeting the business world.

The PC market has multiple clone vendors besides DELL or IBM. My 386DX-33 and Pentium 166-based PCs are national-level assembled PC builds. The "Intel Inside" logo is enough. LOL

My MBX1230XA selection is for games.

The main reason for the 1942S multisync monitor is due AGA's LISA lacks a built-in frequency doubler. VGA can promote legacy CGA and EGA for VGA monitors.

A frame-buffered Amber is needed for interlace display modes. Amber doesn't need a frame buffer for double-frequency non-interlace display modes.

Quote:

Add $229 for a 50MHz 68882 and 4MB RAM, and you will be seriously kicking that 486SX's butt in apps like raytracing and dtp that need floating point math and/or lots of RAM, and still be $125 cheaper!

50MHz 68882 is nearly useless for games. My MBX1230XA selection is for 2.5D/3D games.

68882's very low MFLOPS make them less useful for 3D games. 68882 FPU wasn't designed like AT&T DSP3210's performance.

Both of my A3000/030 @ 25 Mhz and 386DX-33 PC clone has FP80 capable FPU.

From 1993 to 1995, professional raytracing went beyond 68882 and 387 external FPUs e.g. Pentium and MIPS/Alpha RISC FPUs.

Raytracing deals with geometry which has a floating point format and it's a search engine problem.

When Lightwave's render engine runs on Windows NT Pentium and RISC CPUs, it's game over for Amiga's Lightwave market niche anchor.

Full 486DX and 040 FPUs murders 68882 @ 50 Mhz. DTP is Apple's market niche and they are still alive to this day e.g. QuarkXPress.

Quote:

"But why only $125?", you say. "Shouldn't the A1200 be a lot cheaper?". No. Commodore couldn't break the laws of physics. You want more hardware, you better expect to pay for it.

That's an incomplete argument since the performance has to be competitive for the price.

Commodore failed to match Apple's Quadra 605 (68LC040 @ 25 Mhz)'s $999 USD price.

Your DELL focus is flawed when it's not the only PC clone vendor while there's only one Amiga vendor i.e. Commodore.

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_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @Hammer What was the fun with a PC in 1993? There were PCs at univ, they were the most boring computers available, and a dread to use. At least until Linux and the BSDs matured.

PC's DOS sucked, hence why I preferred retro AmigaOS 3.x GUI for running retro PC game ports.

Linux i386 in the 1990s "doesn't have games".

Windows 3.1 GUI lacks the metallic GUI look from Windows 95/NT 4 and Workbench 3.x.

A PiStorm'ed A1200's CaffeineOS (modified AmigaOS 3.9 distro) fits well with my gaming PCs. The transition between Workbench 3.x and Windows 10/11 is minimal due to common two-button mouse GUI design assumptions.

My high school's visual art room had A2000s and they were transitioning them into Apple Macs. The A3000 wasn't a good enough successor to the A2000. Apple Macs doubles as DTP and visual art computer labs. Adobe was active in the education sector.

My PiStorm'ed A1200 doubles as my retro MacOS since my high school (68K Macs) and university (PowerMacs) have multiple Mac labs. Netscape on MacOS is a major retro for me.

Last edited by Hammer on 04-Mar-2024 at 04:13 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 04-Mar-2024 at 12:45 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@bhabbott

Quote:

In New Zealand that would be over NZ$5000. Nobody was selling Pentium systems here in 1993.

New Zealand is a tiny market (3.572 million population in 1993).

Australia's Sydney population in 1993 was 3.745 million. The entire Nordic group's population is roughly equivalent to Australia's population (17.63 million in 1993) and GDP.

Economies of scale relate to the market's population.

This is why Australia's current Labor government is focusing on the "Big Australia" plan i.e. Australia's population passed 27 million ahead of schedule.

Quote:

In September 1995 (New Zealand PC World magazine, page 91) a basic Acer 'Acos' Pentium-75 system with 8MB RAM and no sound card cost NZ$3261 (equivalent to NZ$6262 today). That was a serious amount of cash.

The platform's fate is not decided by tiny New Zealand.


Quote:

Meanwhile you could upgrade your A1200 with a 50MHz 030 board and 4MB (Apollo 1230, CU Amiga July 1995, page 26) for £330 = ~NZ$660, 5 times less. That was the kind of money Amiga fans could afford, and this was still 2 years before you could run Doom on the Amiga.

1995 was too late when PlayStation's western release was in Q4 1995.
NA: 9 September 1995
EU: 29 September 1995
AU: 15 November 1995

For 1995 vs 1995
https://archive.org/details/EA1995/EA%201995-12%20December/page/n67/mode/2up
From Electronics Australia 1995, December 1995 Xmas month. Page 88 of 68.

Ritron Computers System in the Australian state of Victoria
Pentium 90-based PC has $1872 AUD including tax or $1535 AUD without tax.
Includes: 1.44FDD, 8MB RAM, 540MB HDD, 256KB L2 cache, PCI video card, keyboard, 14-inch SVGA monitor.


https://archive.org/details/Australian_Commodore_and_Amiga_Review_The_Volume_12_Issue_11_1995-11_Storm_Front_Studios_AU
The Amiga returns in the Australian 1995 market via ESCOM and ex-Commodore Germany management

From Australian Amiga Review, Nov 1995

Page 2, Phase 5 Cybervision 64 (S3 trio 64U), $1099 AUD

Page 8,
DKB Mongoose 030 @ 50Mhz, 882 @ 50Mhz, 4MB RAM = $869 AUD
GVP 40Mhz 68040, 4MB RAM = $1399 AUD

Page 34
Amiga 1200, please call. Hint: final price and stock issues.
DKB Mongoose 030 @ 50Mhz, 882 @ 50Mhz = $599 AUD (needs Fast RAM)

Page 82
Warp Engine 040 40Mhz = $2299 AUD
A1200HD = $1245 AUD
A4000T/040 = $4945 AUD
A4000T/060 @ 50 Mhz = $5445 AUD

A1200HD's $1245 + DKB Mongoose 030/882 @ 50Mhz with 4MB RAM's $869 = $2,114 AUD.. Escom and ex-Commodore Germany management sinked A1200.

For the 1995 Australian market, 486DX and Pentium-based PCs killed the Amiga AGA in performance vs price ratio.

Sony's PlayStation (RRP $699.95 AUD in Q4 1995) made sure the Amiga 1200 didn't return as a mainstream gaming platform.

---------------
UK market in 1993 with 57.72 million population size.


According to Amiga Computing Issue 062 Jul 93, page 3 of 164, page 4 of 164
Amiga 1200 Comic pack with 60 MB HDD is £539
Amiga 1200 Comic pack with 120 MB HDD is £679

M1230XA with 68030 at 50Mhz and 4MB RAM is £499
Total price:
£1038 for 60 MB HDD
£1,178 for 120 MB HDD,


According to Amiga Format Issue 052, Nov 1993, page 2,
A1200/020 at 14Mhz with 2MB RAM has £295
A4000/030 at 25Mhz with 80MB HDD + 2MB RAM has £979
A4000/030 at 25Mhz with 80MB HDD + 4MB RAM has £1129
A4000/040 at 25Mhz with 120MB HDD + 6MB RAM has £2329

VS

PC Format Nov 1993, page 120 of 166.
486SX25 with 4MB RAM + Cirrus Logic SVGA 1MB + 130MB HDD reached £999.
486DX33 with 4MB RAM + Cirrus Logic SVGA 1MB + 130MB HDD reached £1249.


In 1993, "writing is on the wall" for Commodore's uncompetitive offerings in the £599 to £2329 range.

Commodore UK identified the economies of scale problem with 3rd party 030 accelerators for the A1200.

Quote:

Nope!

Yep. The Australian market is larger than the tiny New Zealand market let alone the large US market.

Quote:

Fail

Facts: PC is still alive while the Amiga is a zombie platform. 24 fps is good enough for Hollywood.

Amiga's Lotus II runs at 25 fps. Look in the mirror.

386DX-33 motherboard has a relatively low-cost upgrade path beyond Am386-40 since the memory bus wasn't stuck in the Amiga 1000's 68000 bus (Alice and Agnus).

Alice needs to be redesigned for the 68020/68030's 32-bit memory bus.

Last edited by Hammer on 04-Mar-2024 at 02:48 AM.
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_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote: @Hammer I find it very sad that you can never stay topic

You can't handle the truth. For 1v1 beat-em-up, Shadow Fighter's and Elf Mania's technical graphics features are rare when it's common on SNES.

Your SAGA's 24-bit color display capability has reduced the need for Copper-driven race the raster beam color palette changes.

Your AC68080 V2 with SAGA's RTG mode can brute-force 68K with Vampire extensions OpenBOR. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugbuywwq_jQ Strong CPU power makes the difference.

I'm sure Amiga fans would desired Commodore's AAA's frame buffer capability in 1992. Motorola's killing the 68K as a high-performance CPU family is another problem.

Your products smashed your argument. LOL

Too bad your Apollo-core website doesn't allow deep linking. LOL

Last edited by Hammer on 04-Mar-2024 at 03:26 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 04-Mar-2024 at 03:19 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@bhabbott

For Q4 1993:

From USA's Amiga World Magazine (November 1993), page 58 of 100,
Price listed in USD in November 1993

A1200/020, 2MB, price $379
A3000/030 at 25Mhz, 5MB, 105HD, price $899
A3000T/030 at 25Mhz, 5MB, 200MB HDD, price $1199
A3000T/040 at 25Mhz, 5MB, 200MB HDD, price $1599

A3000s are missing the AGA chipset. $400 for A3640 (full 68040) card.

Apple's Quada 605 (with 68LC040 at 25Mhz) has $999 USD.

A1200's $379 + A3640 card's $400 = $779 barebones. Add 4 MB of Fast RAM and HDD. 68LC040 asking price is less than 68040.

-----------
https://aminet.net/package/util/moni/bustest

Amiga 3000's CPU access to 32-bit ChipRAM is about 7.0 MB/s (writel, writem) which is the same as AGA's.


The main difference is with the Lisa.

https://archive.org/details/amiga-world-1993-10/page/n7/mode/2up
Amigaworld, October 1993, Page 66 of 104
Amiga 4000/030 @ 25Mhz for $1599
Amiga 4000/040 @ 25Mhz for $2299


Commodore was able to sell an oversized tower A3000T/040 for $1599 USD which is missing the Lisa's chip.

Is the Lisa chip worth $700 price difference?

Amiga 4000/030 @ 25Mhz for $1599 + mentioned $400 A3640 card = $1,999.

Amiga 3000's $899 + CD32's $299 = $1198. It's too bad CD32 wasn't the AGA discrete add-on card. Amiga 3000s are dead ends when it comes to VGA/AGA-era games.

Commodore is price gouging.

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_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer

Quote:

Amiga 3000's CPU access to 32-bit ChipRAM is about 7.0 MB/s (writel, writem) which is the same as AGA. LOL

Why LOL?

A3000 has 32bit chipmem just like A1200.
Both Chipram run the same clock speed.
Its the same design.
So of course its the same number.

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote: @cdimauro Cesare Di Mauro: Quote: The Amiga requires to setup the Blitter MANY times .. for rendering a single object. But this is NOT required! You can if you want setup the Blitter several times. But many Amiga games NOT do this and use the 1 shot mode.

Hey, Gunnar, how many times I've to tell it? Do you read my comments and UNDERSTAND also the context? I've already explained it why. Let me quote myself AGAIN for YOUR benefit:

Using interleaved graphics (which is the most demanding and used operation) you CANNOT do it for cookie-cut operations.

UNLESS you're using a big mask with as many lines repeated as the number of bitplanes. Which obviously you don't want...
[...]

Well, the problem is here that for an experience programmer it OBVIOUS to do NOT duplicate the mask so many times as the bit depth, because then you're WASTING a lot of Chip Mem.

So, while theoretically possible, only a COMPLETE IDIOT would have wasted so much memory when you've only 512kB of Chip Mem where you have to fit everything (framebuffer
/ double or triple buffers, BOBs, sprites, audio samples and buffers for loading from disck).

A complete idiot OR the usual ARMCHAIR QUARTERBACK which has no experience on developing a game on Amiga..

Do you understand now that I've copied all relevant things in one place?
Quote:

Cesare Di Mauro: Quote: but only a COMPLETE IDIOT would use Blitter in one go mode Many Amiga games do exactly this.

And they were wrong, because they were using almost DOUBLE the memory by DUPLICATING the mask for EACH bitplane. And this isn't Slow-mem: it is Chip mem, which is the most important one.

Do you understand it now?
Quote:

So maybe Amiga coders are all idiots?

No, never stated this: only the ones which have DOUBLED the memory as per above.

Fightin' Spirit and USA Racing both used interleaved graphics and they were even more compact on BOBs' memory, since the last (MSb) bitplane was also used as mask.
If we would have used the masks as per the idiots that you mentioned (but you haven't listed, unfortunately) then their memory size would have effectively doubled.
Now, you can image a game like that with HALF of the frames for the characters (or vehicles in the case of USA Racing): a complete crap...
Quote:

Same as Amiga engineers and Commodore?

Gunnar, could you please tell how you came-up with that from our discussion? Why do you still show a complete lack of elementary logic?

But I can tell you that I consider complete idiots the engineers that have invented the above Slow-Mem: it's NOT usable as Chip-Mem NEITHER as Fast-Mem. It has ALL DISAVANTAGES and NO usage (despite as being a storage). That was the most idiotic thing on the Amiga land, since it severely crippled the games.
Quote:

Gunnar Quote: Cesare you first claim its impossible and when shown that its possible - then you claim no one would use the Blitter in 1 Shoot mode. Cesare Di Mauro: Quote: That's a completely invented thing: a PURE LIE - I did never said this. Really? How about you read your own post again? You contradict yourself even in the same post you do.

See above: I've reported the relevant statements for the benefit of your restricted mind.

Let's see how many times I've to repeat the same thing, but maybe it's expected, because you developed no games for the Amiga, so you've no experience and don't understand the challenges and why BOBs with interleaved graphics and big masks were a complete non-sense.

But, hey: you're the ARMCHAIR QUARTERBACK here which he wants to teach a professional player how to play football...
Quote:

Gunnar wrote: Gunnar: Quote: Was the TINA project not the same? You and your friend made a hoax Website, using stolen PCB pictures from other websites advertising a Hardware that you and your friend claimed to work on. Nothing was true on the TINA project. All was fake. [quote] Cesare Di Mauro [quote] And here, as usual, Gunnar entered Goebbles's Propaganda of Lies mode: Where is the lie? The TINA Amiga project was a hoax. The whole was a lie. Did you not even spoke about that you would use our NATAMI CPU in some posts? Did the TINA project not post about 400Mhz CPU? Did the TINA project not post about using 128bit memory? All of the TINA post from you and your friends are lies and incorrect.

Your problem is that you do NOT read what people write. And even if you've read it, then you aren't able to understand.

What's not clear to you that the project wasn't mine? That was from a company? That the company's CEO was leading it? That ALL relevant things about the hardware were developed by the company's employees? That all declarations regarding this was coming from them?

I, like some other guys, were just volunteers helping FOR FREE were possible on our FREE TIME.

And, as I've said, at least my work I did it well. Unfortunately Olaf kept everything from himself, since it's all saved on his (closed) forum.

If you want to have more details about that I've already shared the links several times were I've reported PROOFS of that.

That's the last time that I write something again on this topic: if you enter again the PARROT/PROPAGANDA MODE, I'll just copy & paste the previous text.
Quote:

Gunnar wrote: Cesare Di Mauro: Quote: You are NOBODY in the Amiga land, because you did NOTHING! I never boosted about what I did. My point was that when you try to scholar the world about Amiga you very often talk a total Bullshit and lots of nonsense - and this is very tiring ... And you are right, I not do that much on Amiga I maybe wrote two or three dozens Cracktros and Demos, a hand full games, 2 shooters, a voxel game, a simulation, ported some games, wrote few new games using truecolor. You can find some of my old stuff including the space shooter RAVAGE on the ApolloOS CF. A wrote a good number of tools, did some Browser development participation, did a little OS development (ApolloOS), driver development, developed the Super-AGA chipset, developed the Apollo 68080 CPU, invented AMMX instruction set, I maintain the new ASMONE version, I wrote many patches for GCC to make 68K compilers better. I developed AMiga hardware that is used by over ten thousand people. For sure there are people did more than me on Amiga

Actually you lost the topic / context on this part of the discussion, and started listing useless stuff.

I report here, again, for YOUR benefit:

What's not clear to you that I'm reporting real information about AGA whereas you, that never developed a game for Amiga neither for AGA, are just blindly listing some AGA features and hiding on purpose the most important information on how it really worked out on concrete products?

[...]

More? Please, no! Don't continue because it's evident that you're again acting like an ARMCHAIR QUARTEBACK: you just list features without knowledge about how the machine works in REAL WORLD, with REAL games.

See above: you don't know of what you're talking about. That's because you had ZERO experience on developing Amiga games at the time and you don't know all issues and constraints.
[...]

Why don't you just continue doing VHDL coding and leave the discussions about game development to people which had experience with that?
[...]

A complete idiot OR the usual ARMCHAIR QUARTERBACK which has no experience on developing a game on Amiga..

[...]

The reality that you're missing, since you NEVER developed a game for the Amiga, right?

[...]

That's something that an experienced Amiga game developers knows (or should know, at least) very well.

Now, back to the specific topic, could you tell which games have you developed for the Amiga?
Quote:

but you are none of them.

Let me copy it again:

https://www.retro-gamers.it/fightin-spirit/
In Italian:
Cesare di Mauro: aiuto programmatore di Fightin’ Spirit e programmatore di USA Racing

In English:
Cesare di Mauro: assistant programmer of Fightin' Spirit and programmer of USA Racing.

In German:
Cesare di Mauro: Assistenzprogrammierer von Fightin' Spirit und Programmierer von USA Racing.

But you can always go to FB and ask Dario Merola (the main coder) on the Commodore Amiga group if that was true or not. It's very simple, right? Why don't you do it?

You entered again the PROPAGANDA OF LIES, dear LIAR!
Quote:

Cesare but this is not about who did more...

No, it's about who did something on the field. So, NOT you!
Quote:

I find it annoying that your a fake, that you lie to Amiga forum people,

Care to prove it, dear King of the Propaganda of Lie?
Quote:

instead doing something for Amiga you "write on forums"

What's not clear to you that I did somethings, whereas you've done nothing instead.

Why don't you write a game for the Amiga finally instead of wasting your time on forums?
Quote:

how stupid Amiga designers are

Again the propaganda of lie: I haven't stated this (besides the Slow-Mem). The topic here was about the LACK OF CREATIVITY, and mostly about the last engineers.
Quote:

and how stupid Commodore is and

Well, here I fully agree, eh!
Quote:

you "mathematically" proof why Amiga developers did something wrong 30 years ago.

Here you've shown again that you don't read what people write. You're hopeless..
Quote:

Why don't you get real and do something?

Sure. In fact, I'm just going work.

May I suggest to start writing a game for the Amiga? So that maybe you can finally show something, dear ARMCHAIR QUARTERBACK?

@bhabbott

Quote:

bhabbott wrote: @Hammer Quote: Hammer wrote: @bhabbott For 1993, the problem is the total price for 68030 @ 50 Mhz accelerator with A1200 against a similarly priced 486SX-33-based PC. The problem is that 486SX system couldn't run Amiga programs. And could you connect it to your big-screen TV in composite? Thought not. :( Quote: https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf/PC_World_9306_June_1993.pdf Gateway Party List, Page 72 of 314 4SX-33 with 486-SX 33Mhz, 4MB RAM, 170 MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1494 USD 5 ISA bus slots. No sound card or joystick port. Better add $300 for a good sound card and speakers. So the actual price for a gaming-ready system was more like US$1794. In 1993 an A1200 with 120MB hard drive cost US$637, a Microbotics MBX1230XA with 50MHz 030 and 2MB RAM cost $454, and a 1942S multisync monitor with stereo speakers was $349 (Amiga World December 1993) for a total of $1440. That's a premium A1200 setup for US$354 less than the Dell! Add $229 for a 50MHz 68882 and 4MB RAM, and you will be seriously kicking that 486SX's butt in apps like raytracing and dtp that need floating point math and/or lots of RAM, and still be $125 cheaper! "But why only $125?", you say. "Shouldn't the A1200 be a lot cheaper?". No. Commodore couldn't break the laws of physics. You want more hardware, you better expect to pay for it. A more budget-minded Amiga system could dramatically reduce that price by having eg. a smaller hard drive, lower spec accelerator card or RAM board, and 1084S monitor or your own TV. Creative Computer's "Desktop Publisher System" came with a 60MB hard drive, 4MB FastRAM board with SCSI and 33 MHz FPU for $899, half the price of the Dell. Add a 1942S monitor for flicker-free hires and you are still $552 cheaper. Many other combos were available to suit the individual's requirements and budget. But doing price comparisons is silly. It didn't matter how much you paid for a PC it still wouldn't run Amiga software. Still wouldn't have a 68k CPU and interesting custom chips to enjoy programming in asm. Still wouldn't have an efficient pre-emptive multitasking OS with intuitive GUI. And of course the Amiga couldn't run PC or Mac programs either (oh wait...). Quote: https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf/PC_World_9310_October_1993.pdf October 1993, Page 13 of 354, ALR Inc, Model 1 has a Pentium 60-based PC for $2495 USD In New Zealand that would be over NZ$5000. Nobody was selling Pentium systems here in 1993. In September 1995 (New Zealand PC World magazine, page 91) a basic Acer 'Acos' Pentium-75 system with 8MB RAM and no sound card cost NZ$3261 (equivalent to NZ$6262 today). That was a serious amount of cash. Meanwhile you could upgrade your A1200 with a 50MHz 030 board and 4MB (Apollo 1230, CU Amiga July 1995, page 26) for £330 = ~NZ$660, 5 times less. That was the kind of money Amiga fans could afford, and this was still 2 years before you could run Doom on the Amiga. Quote: The Amiga solution is beaten by the Gateway solution. Nope! Quote: https://youtu.be/oJgQJaqmPx4?t=795 Doom (low detail setting) on 386DX-40 with 128K cache Fail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UAE_(emulator)

@cdimauro

Quote:

What's not clear to you that the project wasn't mine? That was from a company? That the company's CEO was leading it? That ALL relevant things about the hardware were developed by the company's employees? That all declarations regarding this was coming from them?

No this is not clear, as YOU Cesare did post a lot online about TINA.
You wrote in several Amiga forums and you posted also in the TINA Forum as admin yourself.

In your posts, _you_ "explained" the fake features of the TINA system to people.

Quote:

CPU dedicate: 3 x FPGA one per core, 400MHz Memoria RAM: 256MB-1GB Ram Hard Disk: HDD IDE Floppy Disk: FDD controller Ingressi: PS/2 mouse and keyboard Ingressi: SDCard slot Collegamenti esterni: Ethernet Uscita video: HDMI out (or VGA) Uscita audio: AUDIO out I/O: 1 x Serial Port PRINCIPALI CARATTERISTICHE DI TiNA: - Extended AGA chipset with chunky pixel up to 32 bit and support for a FullHD (1920x1080) at 60Hz/FPS - Improved Copper and Blitter, especially the Blitter in order to manipulate up to 32bit colour - Improved Sprites (still 8) to support chunky-pixel mode up to 32 bit colour, with the possibility of horizontal and vertical flip - from 256MB to 1GB of memory (all chip-ram) with a theoretic bandwith of 3.2GB/s (roughly 450 times what OCS/ECS machines offered, and 112 times what AGA had available just for the display and sprites), later on there might be the possibility to quadruple it using DDR2 memory (reaching similar Nintendo Wii U values). - Minimum of 8 audio channels, 16 bit stereo at 48Khz (minimum). - IDE/ATA controller for legacy hard drives - SD card slot for firmware, ADF images and HDF to emulate up to 2 hard disks. - Compatible with AmigaOS3.x

All these advertised feature look for very impressive -

BUT NOTHING OF THEM IS TRUE.

NONE OF THEM IS CORRECT!



Fact: There NEVER was a TINA.

Fact: Tthe website was a hoax.

Fact: The photos of PCBs, that were online on the TINA website - "showing TINA development"
were taken from other websites,
they were NOT from TINA project,
they were pictures of other PCB, of other projects, of other people.
(simply stolen from the internet)



Cesare Di Mauro

I understand that you say, that you were only part of the team. And you did not design the specs.


But the fact remains, that the TINA project was a 100% hoax.
Nothing of it was real.
Nothing of it was ever done.


The "promised" features like 400Mhz and 128bit Bus - are technical totally impossible with the claimed to be used hardware.


If you Cesare Di Mauro
post about these "false" facts in forums
and you advertise impossible features
of a non existing hoax system ...

Then what does this make you?

Last edited by Gunnar on 04-Mar-2024 at 07:56 AM.

@Cesare Di Mauro

Quote:

What's not clear to you that the project wasn't mine? That was from a company? That the company's CEO was leading it? That ALL relevant things about the hardware were developed by the company's employees? That all declarations regarding this was coming from them?

Cesare, is this true what you say?


Lets look at this Company:
Quote:

BERTOCAR (Italy) - System admin TiNA project. CDMAURO (Italy) - Amiga hardware expert. User admin forum TiNA project. SCHIUMACAL (Italy) - User admin forum TiNA project and maintainer TiNA project website. THEDADDY (U.K./Italy) - Official translator Team. DANIELE (Italy) - Morally supports the Team in time of difficulty.

Who of them is the CEO?

Who of them are employees?

Who got paid?

And what was the TINA companys office?



CESARE:
Quote:

That was from a company?

Lets look at your TINA team own post:
Quote:

TiNA is a project to which we dedicate ourselves with seriousness and strong passion, but always in our free hours, precisely because at the moment we don't think about anything other than passion and pure fun in creating.

Cesare the specs of the TINA project were from day 1 absolutely impossible
FPGA which was claimed to run 400MHz CPU - is technically absolutely impossible to reach this clock.
The 128 system bus between the 3 FPGA and the 128 memory bus is technically absolutely impossible
to reach - as the used FGA not even have the PINS for this!

Cesare you knew these project features
and you wrote online about them.

Cesare and you advertised these hoax features for long time.


And which point did you realize that these features are technically totally impossible?

@Gunnar

[quote]

Cesare you advertised these impossible hoax features for the TINA for long time.
You posted in many forum, false numbers.

At which point did you realize that these features are technically totally impossible?

[/quole]


At which point did you correct this?

At which point did you tell people that the photos on the website were fake.

At which point did you tell people that you NOT have a soft CPU with 800Mips as promised.

At which point did you tell people that the advertise 400MHz were not true and are totally impossible.

At which point did you tell people that the advertised 128Bit bus was fake and is in fact technically totally impossible.

At which point did you tell people that nothing that was promised was real - was that all was a joke?

At which point did you tell people that the people involved have no experience with FPGAs or PCB layout - and that the whole website was just a hoax?

At which point did you tell people that the PCB schematics shown where all FAKE?

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: @bhabbott https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UAE_(emulator)

Not sure what what you are trying to say here. UAE was originally called the unusable Amiga emulator for good reason. It wasn't until 1997 that PCs became powerful enough to emulate an A500 in (close to) real time. Even after adding jit in 2000 it still struggled to emulate the AGA chipset properly.

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote: @Hammer Quote: Amiga 3000's CPU access to 32-bit ChipRAM is about 7.0 MB/s (writel, writem) which is the same as AGA. LOL Why LOL? A3000 has 32bit chipmem just like A1200. Both Chipram run the same clock speed. Its the same design. So of course its the same number.

The impact of Commodore management's "read my lips, no new chips" directive during A3000's R&D phase has far-reaching consequences that affected AGA, AAA, and Hombre R&D time scale.

Commodore management lacks time-scale planning skills in relation to the engineering effort.

With engineering personnel from AMD microprocessors (e.g. 29K RISC) and SUN GX (quadrilateral 3D accelerator), NVIDIA was founded in 1993 and they released their NV1 (quadrilateral 3D accelerator) product in 1995, which has a 2-year time scale from R&D to product release. Lacking Z-buffer acceleration and quadrilateral 3D made this design to be a mismatch with Direct3D. Another two years of corrective R&D for NV3 RiVA 128 that was released in early 1997.

3DFX was founded by ex-SGI engineers in 1994 and released their 1st Voodoo (triangle polygon with Z-buffer acceleration) 128-bit design in October 1996.

For original Amiga (Los Gatos) personnel, 3DO Company (quadrilateral 3D system) was founded in 1991 and released 3DO in late 1993. 3DO M2 (64-bit bus) was demo'ed in 1995 Electronic Entertainment Expo. M2 failed to appear at the 1996 Electronic Entertainment Expo. The blame is on "Japan Inc"'s command and control economy since Matsushita (Panasonic) is unwilling to compete against fellow Japanese electronics giant Sony's PlayStation and Nintendo's Nintendo 64. The M2 was canceled so close to release, marketing had already taken place in the form of flyers, and several of its prospected launch titles had gameplay screens in circulation. After this debacle, Matsushita (Panasonic) is a joke.
Commodore lost good engineering personnel that designed the original Amiga ASICs.

All quadrilateral 3D AISCs have failed.

Personnel's relevant proven skills and knowledge are major factors.

--------------

A1200's AGA with 68030 @ 50 Mhz 3D example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0wBXnDOcoc
Too bad VirtualGP was released in 1999. 68030 @ 40Mhz would do the job.

VirtualGP's graphics presentation can beat PC 1993's IndyCar Racer, but Commodore International rejected Commodore UK's CPU-accelerated A1200 bundle initiative. Major 3rd party game studios wanted official (mass production) support for CPU-accelerated A1200 from Commodore.

Last edited by Hammer on 05-Mar-2024 at 05:06 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 05-Mar-2024 at 04:52 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 05-Mar-2024 at 04:26 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer

I find it very hard to understand what your point is.

With all your off-topic stuff and copy/paste from Wikipedia about PC hardware,
I can not see what you actually try to say about Amiga.