@NutsAboutAmiga

He is describing the fanaticism of the potential customers of a A1222+. Yes, it is the act of a fanatic to populate a reengineered Classic Amiga Mobo but at least it is a legacy that motivates the fanaticism! I really think at times that we worship the false god of the "Show All Files> Clean up by Column> Snapshot All"!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

This is simply round 3 of AEON expecting the Amiga community to mop up after [finally] releasing an inferior product. I’m NOT going to wait around, again, for years, for some supposed magic developers to fix what should work out of the box after all this time (testers have had YEARS to perfect the OS to run on this board). I don’t want to hear “It’s a hobby” BS either! And now AEON & Co. wants to double the price of the original offering for a bare board with incidentals? Can you say “BAIT & SWITCH”!!!!

Okay sorry, that was harsh X infinity.

Here’s an idea…. Release a low cost PPC board that just runs OS4 and OS4 only apps. Pay devs to create new apps that eliminate 68k duties. Just ditch all the 68k legacy, compatibility & emulation. Have an OS4 bare metal party so to speak.

_________________
Fulfill newlight's Elite Narcissist Demands NOW Or He Will Send You To H3LL!

I wish I would have bought one of these back in the day... from Relic... they offered that sweet tug case!

What did someone say today? "It's not about the cost, it's about the value"

Last edited by Amiga4000 on 11-Jul-2023 at 02:32 AM.
Last edited by Amiga4000 on 11-Jul-2023 at 02:23 AM.

_________________
Fulfill newlight's Elite Narcissist Demands NOW Or He Will Send You To H3LL!

@NutsAboutAmiga

I understand that English is not your first language so I'll put it another way:

You and others like you, who keep coming up with excuses for the shortfalls of A-EON et al, are like a woman in an abusive relationship who talks about how really loving and kind her husband is when he is not beating her.

What would it take? What if A-EON priced it at €2000 would you still make excuses how it's not a machine for everyone?

Let's face it, there will be no more production runs of the X5000 20 or 40, or SAMs. The hastily conceived and poorly executed idea that is the A1222 is the only option for those who still want to get in on running A-EON's Enhancer Software, so they could charge almost anything they like.

That last run of SAM460s was a market test to see what price would the AmigaOS 4 market tolerate, and y'all happily told them that "no price is too high".

But just like it is talking to a woman in an abusive relationship, my words will not have the desired effect. Doesn't matter how much I or others who actually care about her tell her to leave him, it's us that don't understand.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@fishy_fis

Quote:

Did I misread or is this really going to be in the ballpark of 1000 euro?

I think it is probably going to be closer to 1500. There was someone that reported that one of the resellers expected the price to be slightly higher than a fully decked out sam, and suggested slightly more than ~1300.

So, not exactly cheap but nothing are in very small volumes of boutique hardware.
Be happy instead that is looks like it will actually be released and not remain vaporware.
I actually thought it would never be released.

As for the price/value? This is very likely the last batch of custom PPC AmigaOne machines that will ever be produced so buy now or be without forever. They can probably ask whatever price they want at this point.


Personally I would never buy one since I think they are not Amigas and have zero interest in them.
On the other hand, I do collect SONY consoles and handhelds and if I got the opportunity to buy a PS1 NetYaroze console for just 1300$ I would jump at the opportunity.
Costs and value are relative.

Last edited by V8 on 11-Jul-2023 at 09:00 AM.
Last edited by V8 on 11-Jul-2023 at 04:38 AM.

@Amiga4000

Quote:

Amiga4000 wrote: This is simply round 3 of AEON expecting the Amiga community to mop up after [finally] releasing an inferior product. I’m NOT going to wait around, again, for years, for some supposed magic developers to fix what should work out of the box after all this time (testers have had YEARS to perfect the OS to run on this board). I don’t want to hear “It’s a hobby” BS either! And now AEON & Co. wants to double the price of the original offering for a bare board with incidentals? Can you say “BAIT & SWITCH”!!!! Okay sorry, that was harsh X infinity. Here’s an idea…. Release a low cost PPC board that just runs OS4 and OS4 only apps. Pay devs to create new apps that eliminate 68k duties. Just ditch all the 68k legacy, compatibility & emulation. Have an OS4 bare metal party so to speak.

Your argument is effectively Draco AmigaOS compatible with PowerPC.

Without 68K/ UAE emulation, AROS on foreign CPU instruction set is not compatible with baseline AmigaOS 68K.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

None of the post-Commodore AmigaONE products had been relevant in the IT world, anyhow and anymore. Not a single one, really. All the shortcomings you're living are due to the expectations you have on unnecessary products.

Unnecessary products that cannot recoup their development costs, so development is both scarce, long and ill-fated, with bugs that need decades to be fixed and drivers that never get published.

Amiga related procuts' lifecycle is scary. You can bet a product announced today will be ready in 20 years, with few beta production runs in the meanwhile where pricey, underpowered and unsupported devices are sold to a little club of dreamers.

In the meanwhile, any clever solution gets bashed and attacked in all manners.

The FACT that the A500 Mini has had hundreds time more success and selling numbers than all the PPC solutions put together should at least ring an alert to wise people, but STILL, I can read invitations to ditch the 68K legacy and keep the totally pointless PPC route.

You're not Amiga fans anymore, but something else. Really.

@paolone

The problem is that a lot of people have not yet accepted that Amiga NG is a retro hobby and still think that it is and can be a viable modern compute platform.
68k Amiga has understood and accepted this and is why they are flourishing, having fun and they have heaps of options and new development of hw and sw. Because it is a retro hobby that makes people happy and having fun.

NG Amiga has not yet reached this stage and still think they could become modern if they just got this one more sw ported and they could become viable as a mainstream platform if they just ...
But that never happens and that is why there is so much anger and resentment.
Then them looking over at the m68k side of the fence and seeing people having fun and averything is sunshine just makes things worse.

Once NG Amiga accepts that NG was a parenthesis in the history of computing and accept that it was only that and no more and they learn to enjoy their hobby the anger and pain will go away. But they have to truly understand that "world domination and mainstream platform" will never happen and is not just "one more platform release away" and we will be back on top and a popular mainstream platform.
Anyway, the tabor is very very likely the last batch of ng hardware that will ever be produced. Buy it or be without ng hardware forever. This is the last chance ever to buy new ng hw. Do not complain if you pass on this opportunity and nothing ever comes available again.

Last edited by V8 on 11-Jul-2023 at 10:57 AM.

@V8

Quote:

V8 wrote: @paolone The problem is that a lot of people have not yet accepted that Amiga NG is a retro hobby and still think that it is and can be a viable modern compute platform.

I haven't been following the Amiga scene in quite some time very much. But this strikes me as astounding if anyone really believes this in 2023.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

All the talk about playing YouTube videos, new browsers and Office Suites.... you bet they still believe it!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

Well up until I listened via YouTube to what Trevor said at Retcon 2023, I hadn't accepted OS4.1 machines as truly retro.

Quote:

We call it Next Generation Amiga, but its still retro Next Generation.

Only AROS has perhaps some small hope of being anything other than retro in my mind now; although I'm probably being unrealistic about that as well.

Of course on the bright side there's nothing wrong with Retro (Ive never even owned a OS4 machine, but still enjoy making use of my A2000). New users, software & hardware progress, as has been going on with Classics, can happen with OS4.1 machines which have more potential as useful tools & can be fun like classics.

Last edited by Tpod on 11-Jul-2023 at 08:16 PM.

_________________
A1200+Mediator+Voodoo3+040+130mbRAM+0S3.9
A2000+Supra28mhz+9mbRAM+OS3.2.2, CD32 & WinUAE

Well I for one can't wait to change my old sam440 with a newer machine.

I do think that the next CPU type could very well be RISC-V. So if we are going to use CPUs that to some extend ate inkompatible woth older used types, then why not just go all in.
risc-v is cheap, open and actively being developed. Don't get me wrong I did very much like the PPC switch back in 97 and up through the first decideret of this century, but now technologies have moved on.

_________________

@Tpod

Even AROS itself has no chance to become mainstream realistically. You need lots of developers for OS and drivers and those are simply not there. And of course developers porting software and creating unique software. That is unrealistic.

68k offers chances as part of the booming retro scene. The other project that might become more interesting could be axruntime from deadwood sometime in future. That would potentially offer a merge between linux and aros or more precise it would be linux running linux and ported aros software with linux as OS.

From my point of view a little like merging aros 68k with amigaos software. But that is at the moment just a possible future.

@all

I do not know if it is possible to create similar feelings with NG like AmigaOS 4.1 on PPC as with old hardware extended with V4 or PiStorm. It is basically emotions and memories, PPC hardware is more or less standard hardware like a PC with a different processor and being underpowered and overpriced running a limited OS. I do not see it creating the same excitement as a A500 can despite being more powerful.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 11-Jul-2023 at 10:27 PM.

@OlafS25

It's amazing what can happen when you attempt to sell dreams rather than mobos and wires! We seem to have unlearnt these key lessons from Commodore UK!

I know more about the gimped FPU/SPE than I know about possible software that I'd like to use on a A1222+!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@OlafS25

PowerPC e6500 is reasonable i.e. 64-bit PowerPC with one 128-bit Altivec unit per core, SMT that scales up to 12 CPU cores.

12 CPU cores variant has 24 threads.

PowerPC e6500 is similar to AMD Bulldozer which can decode two instructions and complete
two instructions per thread per clock cycle.

Each thread has at least access to a single load/store set. i.e. each CPU has two load/store units. PowerPC e6500's two threads can decode four instructions and complete
four instructions per clock cycle.

Based on clock speed, e6500 could have a medium-length pipeline instead of Bulldozer's Pentium IV-length pipeline.

PowerPC e6500 is no IBM POWER9, but reasonable for its low power consumption.

The problem is Ryzen 9 3900's 12-core/24 threads Zen 2 is reasonably low cost that includes four 256-bit AVX2 (two 256-bit FMAC units, two simple 256-bit FADD units). Zen 2 has a medium-length pipeline. Unlike the Bulldozer, Zen CPUs don't have a hard partition between instruction decoders and dual threads.

https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/reference-manual/E6500RM.pdf is interesting.

I'm aware of the laptop project based on NXP QorIQ T2080, a PowerPC e6500-based processor. The major problem with "big" PowerPC CPU cores is access to motherboards at a reasonable price. T2080 is a quad-core/8 threads configuration.

Raptor's Blackbird or Talos II Power9 PCIe 4.0 motherboard is the only Power-based solution that is comparable to the current non-flagship AMD X570/B650 and Intel Z690/W680 PCIe4-based motherboards. Talos II and Blackbird mainboards can't run AmigaOS 4.1 FE.

PS; Intel LGA1700 W680 and AMD AM4/AM5 (ASUS/ASRock) motherboards have support for UDIMM ECC memory.

PS: Blackbird or Talos II has support for RDIMM ECC memory which is AMD EPYC/Intel Xeon W family RDIMM ECC memory level support. RDIMM is for 128 GB per slot support.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2023 at 02:14 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2023 at 01:27 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2023 at 01:22 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2023 at 01:17 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @Tpod Even AROS itself has no chance to become mainstream realistically. You need lots of developers for OS and drivers and those are simply not there. And of course developers porting software and creating unique software. That is unrealistic. 68k offers chances as part of the booming retro scene. The other project that might become more interesting could be axruntime from deadwood sometime in future. That would potentially offer a merge between linux and aros or more precise it would be linux running linux and ported aros software with linux as OS. From my point of view a little like merging aros 68k with amigaos software. But that is at the moment just a possible future. @all I do not know if it is possible to create similar feelings with NG like AmigaOS 4.1 on PPC as with old hardware extended with V4 or PiStorm. It is basically emotions and memories, PPC hardware is more or less standard hardware like a PC with a different processor and being underpowered and overpriced running a limited OS. I do not see it creating the same excitement as a A500 can despite being more powerful.

Building another "Amiga 500" in modern times would be difficult since the PC world has companies like focused GpGPU companies like AMD (RDNA 3), NVIDIA (RTX ADA), and lesser extent Intel (ARC).

Intel and Apple are very large companies themselves with difficulty competing against AMD's Radeon RX and NVIDIA's GeForce RTX teams.

Qualcomm is an equally large company that focuses on mobile phone SoCs. AMD entered mobile phone SoC iGPUs with RDNA 2 and incoming RDNA 3 via Samsung.

Needs to be Apple-level just to design and market acceptable GPU i.e. designing mobile RTX 3060 performance without hardware raytracing level is a lowball target.

Raspberry Pi is the modern version of Sinclair ZX Spectrum and Acorn BBC Micro. Raspberry Pi was able to build a 500,000 monthly sales rate business and there is no Jack Tramiel driven Commodore or Atari interference.

Acorn BBC Micro and Raspberry Pi have similar UK computer literacy education project goals. In May 2021, Raspberry Pi sold 40 million units beating Commodore's 17 to 30 million C64 units sold.

Reference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Raspberry_Pi_Cumulative_Shipment_Units.png

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2023 at 04:32 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2023 at 04:20 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2023 at 01:43 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Yssing

Quote:

Yssing wrote: Well I for one can't wait to change my old sam440 with a newer machine. I do think that the next CPU type could very well be RISC-V. So if we are going to use CPUs that to some extend ate inkompatible woth older used types, then why not just go all in. risc-v is cheap, open and actively being developed. Don't get me wrong I did very much like the PPC switch back in 97 and up through the first decideret of this century, but now technologies have moved on.

RISC V is cheap and crap for desktop computers. Atm, RISC V is useful for single-purpose microcontrollers.

Small CPU cores SoCs are usually cheap, but the motherboard/mainboard is the cost problem.

My RTX GPUs has a customized RISC V embedded CPU and it's useless for general desktop PC application programming. NVIDIA still selects ARM-based CPU clones despite RISC V being cheap.

There is no enforced standard for RISC V.

There's a large price difference between Intel Cyclone V SoC FPGA-based Chameleon96's $122.65 USD and Amiga-related / German-related tax-overheads /German profit expectation Apollo Standalone V4's €570.59 (exc. VAT). The "Phase 5" effect.

Chameleon96's Cyclone V includes dual-core ARM Cortex A9 @ 800Mhz. Chameleon96's $122.65 asking price is from the US site Arrow.com

A low-cost CPU / SoC doesn't guarantee it will remain low-cost when Amiga tax or German profit expectation/overheads are added on top of it.

PiStorm remained low cost due to Sony's "Made in UK" mass production of Raspberry Pi 3A+ and 4B SBC. Raspberry Pi's per unit profit expectation is different from Apollo Core.

Chameleon96 was designed by Novtech located in FL, USA. Novtech is a partner for both NXP (ARM-based SKUs) and Intel.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2023 at 04:01 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2023 at 03:51 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2023 at 03:50 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2023 at 03:47 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2023 at 03:38 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@V8

Quote:

V8 wrote: … looks like it will actually be released and not remain vaporware. I actually thought it would never be released.

I’m not entirely sure which option is worse at this point.

Quote:

This is very likely the last batch of custom PPC AmigaOne machines that will ever be produced

Oh please please please, let it be true.

Quote:

so buy now or be without forever.

I happily choose “without forever”.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @V8 Quote: V8 wrote: @paolone The problem is that a lot of people have not yet accepted that Amiga NG is a retro hobby and still think that it is and can be a viable modern compute platform. I haven't been following the Amiga scene in quite some time very much. But this strikes me as astounding if anyone really believes this in 2023.

Of course. Because that is how it is marketed.
Point out where on A-EON’s website or Hyperion’s AmigaOS 4 website is it made clear that the hardware and/or OS, respectively, are intended for a retro computing purpose or market.

This all started with an old man who had a dream of owning the mythical A5000, so he went on a half-arsed vanity quest to make a quasi-modern version of the proverbial unicorn computer; And he roped in a bunch of desperately willing Amiga fans to offset his costs.
There was never a grand product evolution plan. That’s why we jumped from X1000 straight to X5000. There were never going to be the X2000, X3000, or X4000 in-between.

The old man got his, what do the rest have to show for it?
I’ll tell you what: A constant rewriting of the Amiga NG mission statement. Now relegated to a hyper-niche and uber-expensive hobby for people who’s primary source of joy is the achievement of running software not on a mainstream PC (x86), which now also apparently includes Raspberry Pi (ARM).

The X1000 marketing asked ahead of its launch if we remember when Computing was fun?
What will the A1222 epitaph be? For those who pined for the halcyon days before computing was mainstream?

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@Amiga4000

Quote:

Amiga4000 wrote: I wish I would have bought one of these back in the day... from Relic... they offered that sweet tug case! What did someone say today? "It's not about the cost, it's about the value"

A pretty ordinary ITX case. It should have been a retro A4000T style scaled for the ITX form factor i.e. it's a white and black color scheme.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)