@DrBombcrater

Uhm, Pentium M at 1.1GHz capable of outrunning "any 74xx"?
Now that would be fun to watch. How does it do that then? Literally growing legs and running away?

Because it isn't _faster_ than the newer 74xx's, if that's what you meant.

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This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@Crumb

IF you get over the notion of "G3" and accept that it is one of the fastest PPC's availible for the price then I don't see a problem

@olegil

Quote:

Uhm, Pentium M at 1.1GHz capable of outrunning "any 74xx"?

Depands on user applications.

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@olegil

Quote:

I think he is interested.

Allow me to have some doubts.

Quote:

If that's your attitude towards questions, then I think you need a break from forums.

My attitutde towards questions is that I try to answer them. Please look around and tell me that I don't. I find it slightly unfair to suggest otherwise - you know I am trying my best in what little time I have.

However, I do reserve the right to ignore a question, especially if I get the feeling that the question already suggests a reply without actually waiting for me reply.

I might be wrong, but Georg always gives me the impression (whether that is true or not) that he has zero interest in AmigaOne and/or OS 4.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Depands on user applications.

You mean if an application is optimized for the processor in question?

An application optimized for a 74xx should use Altivec if possible.

My A1 with a 7450/51 800Mhz does outrun my P4.2.8Ghz, when Altivec is used.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Official DDR400?s is still clocked at 200Mhz, which is not too far from it?s SDR origins e.g. 133/166 SDR. DDR2* and DDR3 are ones that cranks up the clock speed e.g. real clock +300Mhz.

Sure, DDR400 clocks at 200 MHz and reads at both rising and falling flanks. This is how Apple uses it in their dual-CPU designs - one CPU reads at rising and one at falling flank. Still, 200 MHz is almost twice as 133 MHz.

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@DruidPoet

For 170pounds you can get a much faster fanless 1Ghz G4.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Note that, IBM also has multi-billion dollar budget...

We "just" need to smuggle a few red pills in their cereals...

_________________
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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@Crumb

"For 170pounds you can get a much faster fanless 1Ghz G4."

Hold on now! It's 170 EURO suggested end-user price, not POUNDS.

Moreover, the idea that the G4@1 Ghz is much faster than the 750 FX @ 800 or GX @ 800 Mhz just betrays the fact that you have never used those CPU's.

Hyperion is very much interested in better performance for our games and we have noticed that the 750 FX outperforms the MPC 7451/7445 consistently at the same clockfrequency.

The GX @800 mhz with it's 1 MB of L2 cache will doubtlessly match or outperform a 1 Ghz G4.

Please don't start with Altivec which is only useful in very specialised applications, no more than 5%.

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@Crumb

Indeed a 7447A costs about $204 US or so in batches of 44 CPUs (not including shipping + handeling). BUT that suggested price on eyetechs site allso includes Eyetechs margins plus the 20-30% dealer margins, not to mention that it's a CPU card and not a CPU. Wich means that there is an added cost there in terms of the extra components needed and the manufacturing of it. And all in all I'd guess that it'd (750FX) be cheaper.

Some quick and dirty maths tell me that £170 ~ $304 put a 30% dealer margin and a 10% margin for Eyetech on that and you get an original cost of ~$184, for the whole CPU module. This might not be very accurate, but it gives an indication of what the prices might be.

Then there might be other issues like reduced dealer costs due to less problems wth the "G3" type CPUs. As a lame example quite a few of the systems builder commpanies here in sweden keeps away from AMD, since they have got bad experiences with the quality of AMD capable motherboards. (ie more costs due to the increased support needs of the customers)

@tomazkid

Careful with that particular statement since the one could just quote G4 Mac results(e.g. barefeats) e.g. Cinebench 2003, UT2003, UT2004, Quake3, Adobe Photoshop, OpenSSL, MySQL. Secondly, it would seriously detract from the topic at hand.

Quote:

An application optimized for a 74xx should use Altivec if possible.

It?s limitations would be coming from PPC 755** and PPC 7447A quad issues instructions front-ends (3 ops + 1 branch) to it?s execution units.

**I only have ATMEL's PPC 745/755 docs atm. I'm not certain with PPC 750 series.

_________________
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@thread

"Bor-ing!"

/worms

...so what was this thread all about originally, then? Can anyone remember?

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@Hyperionmp

Assuming PPC750 is PPC 745/755 variant and according to ATMEL's PPC745/755 docs, its front-end can issue 4 instructions (dual port with each 2 instructions issues).

PS; Maybe I?ll look for PPC 750FX pdf...
Edit, found it? PPC750FX is very similar PPC755 (from IBM's "750FX_UM-v1.01-prel-022403.pdf").

_________________
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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hyperionmp

"The GX @800 mhz with it's 1 MB of L2 cache will doubtlessly match or outperform a 1 Ghz G4."

It seems it greatly depends on the amount of L2.
(IIRC most G4A1's have G4 with 256kt of L2, while 750FX has 512kt and 750GX will have 1024)

If the there is same amount of L2 and AOS starts to use Altivec in datatypes, scheduler, memory management, Warp3D Nova etc, the speed advantage of G4 starts to show "everywhere".

Make no mistake, I'm looking forward to uA1I untill Altivec aware code start to appear for AOS4.


Best of both worlds: G3 with Altivec, the IBM PPC750VX.

btw. What's the latest release date estimate of 750VX?
Is it or is it coming at all any more?

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

Quote:

Best of both worlds: G3 with Altivec, the IBM PPC750VX.

Absolutely. (Or 970, but well... )

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@Hyperionmp

Sorry, but Altivec is quite useful for:
Encryption (like SSL2 etc), Graphics processing software (faster effects), video software (faster video format conversions, effects), sound processing (faster filters) software... and much more like 3D rendering

I've used MacOS and the difference between altivec enabled apps is quite noticeable.

It would be useful even for Hyperion now because Warp3D still doesn't have T&L (and some popular cards like Voodoo3 doesn't have T&L).

A modern g4 costs just 170? or so... if the g3 is so much better can you tell me why are you selling your high-end model with g4s instead of your supposedly faster g3?

I don't care if Reaction is 15% faster because I'm using a 750FX (a 800Mhz G4 is fast anyway, we've promoted your products in Spain, don't you know?), but I would care more about waiting 4 times to see an effect applied to a film, etc...

If the price difference between a A1-XEG3 and an A1-XEG4 was so small (60 or 100?) why don't you give the users the OPTION of choosing a g4 for the same price difference?

The latest G4s are not only cheaper than the previous G4s, but also require less power. And you should be able to get them for around 170? too!

The only way to offer a decent performance in brute force tasks compared to x86 is using altivec and that's something we need, because people won't like the idea of paying 666? for a computer and having to wait 3 times more than on a cheap x86 machine to apply a filter on a gfx program, to convert a DVD to DivX and lots and lots of useful tasks...

yes, user experience will be nice thanks to the good response of AmigaOS, but when you need brute force you won't be able to compete with x86. With Altivec even if you are slower than x86 at least you'll get a decent performance.

If you don't give the option of using a G4 you are hurting the future of Altivec-enabled apps because the user base will be much smaller.

And the latest G4 can run fanless too (If you don't believe wait until Genesi starts to produce faster cpu cards). The price of these G4s is much less than the current ones used in A1XE...

Anyway... I hope you sell lots and lots so there's an important price reduction. The price is quite high now. It's not as if no one can buy it saving for some months, but you have to remember that it's only a computer and not many people wants to spend 5 times more than the money they would spend on a pc. For the price of an A1XE you can get a full MAC with MacOS X. It isn't AmigaOS, but MACs have always been one of the most expensive machines so if we are being more expensive than them we have a problem.

But the price is difficult to change so I'll be realistic and will only ask you one thing: give the users the option of using a G4 module.

When the next batch of cheap G4s starts to ship in quantity buy it and use the G3 only for the industrial market. We need Altivec to compete with x86.

If you think altivec can only be used in 5% apps tell me the apps you use both on Amiga and x86 and I'll tell you which ones would suffer a huge speed inprovement. There's an altivec site where you can find developers and documentation here

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@KimmoK

A 750VX would rock, it's a pity that it isn't available

@Eric_S:

Yes, if they sold the cpu module apart would be ok to charge more money, but they are already selling you the entire motherboard. What would be next, charge me for each capacitor? I'm buying the entire product from them! If they sold the motherboard and the cpu apart and you bought them apart it would be fair to charge more, but you are buying a "full pack".

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Still a bit too pricey, unfortunately...

And I was expecting something more about the specs... sadly, some "secret" infos that I eared, wasn't true...

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@Crumb

Thumbs up.

any news about a G3 processor with altivec
and eyetech cpu-expansions??


alex

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