@bojan_bozovic
Reading your post it seem you're quite misinformed...

In a recent article (and I can't remember where it was, If I find it again i'll ad reference here), it was said that today linux kernels are now as much optimized on both x86 and ppc architecture.
concerning better gfx support : only difference is nvidia drivers which are not opensource
concerning DRI, USB, firewire, it's exactly the same as on x86 hardware... same controllers as in PC (via VT8231 and VT6306 in pegasos) so, where is the difference... ther's none, the only one is when a manufacturer give closed source x86 driver with hardware. And until now, this was not often seen. (nvidia...) For everyone information, the complete pegasos hardware is supported under linux, as i suppose the whole range of A1 will be as soon as they will fix everything articia related... and yes it's vital for eyetech to have an uptodate fixed kernel.

Then I hope not to learn you that, but pegasos is micro-ATX (236x172mm), not ATX
BTW micro ATX can be as high as 236x236mm.
mini ITX is 172x172mm so you can see pegasos is not much bigger than micro-A1, but it has PCI slots...

Have a look here to know more about pegasos specs.

Last concerning ArticiaS, I never talked about AOS4... I perfectly know that AOS4 will take care of the "feature" hopefully

Concerning industrial use... If you think about automation, perhaps, but then it has to prove HW reliability first... and I must admit I'm sceptical...
If you're talking about ISPs or clusters, both are equal in terms of HW.. the better will be the one with better SCSI and RAID support in "bios". Concerning clusters, I think pegasos is better suited because of Gigabit ethernet directly connected to the Northbridge (and second one as option) and 10/100 ethernet on board...
So as always... it depends

@olegil

Quote:

So yeah, you can have an x86 with low power consumption, but it's not gonne be much fun

I'm bemused as to why everyone thinks low power x86 = VIA C3. There are much better designs like Intel's Pentium M ULV. It dissipates just 5w @ 1.1GHz with 2MB of on-die L2 cache and is quite capable of out-running any PPC 750 or 74xx at that clockspeed.

More Details.

And, yes, there are Pentium-M mini-ITX boards.

Motorola's lacklustre development and IBM's recent problems with the 750 core have pretty much thrown away PowerPC's claim to any heat/power advantage over x86, at least for the time being.

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@falcon1

Quote:

I seriously doubt you're using 800Mhz 7447...

You're right. IIt's a 1.4 Ghz 7447. I never mentioned 800 Mhz.

Quote:

7447 9.2W 7447A 9.9W

That's power dissipation. What is the actual power consumption? I couldn't find any numbers on that.

Quote:

I suspect your G4 to have trouble... or it is perhaps CPU card design...

I guess as a Pegasos user you can't go without some cheap stupid shot at MAI's direction, right?

My CPU runs at 1.133 Mhz, with the crystal orb cooler. It gets pretty hot. I can't run it on 1.4 Ghz (which is its nominal frequency) because of the heat.

It runs stable, of course.

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@falcon1

Quote:

Last concerning ArticiaS, I never talked about AOS4... I perfectly know that AOS4 will take care of the "feature" hopefully

No need to put that in quotes. It is a feature. In any case, its result is that the memory performance of the A1 is about the same as the Pegasos II with DDR ram.

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@Rogue
Quote:

That's power dissipation. What is the actual power consumption? I couldn't find any numbers on that.

Yup but as Lavoisier said, "nothing is gained, nothing is lost everything is transformed..."
so, the big part of power goes in heat in a CPU, so power consumption is a little bit more than power dissipated....
but I think it's the power dissipated which is your problem.

Quote:

I guess as a Pegasos user you can't go without some cheap stupid shot at MAI's direction, right?

Nope, if you were right I would have inverted the sentence In fact I didn't want to say that.
It could be the fact that your CPU card is badly built (G4 not properly soldered...), I experienced such problem with an athlonMP... (it was 20°C hotter than it's neighbour)

BTW it could be some contact problem between the dissipator part and the CPU die... or a ventilation problem inside your case...
but in every case, a 7447 shouldn't be so hot be it used in an A1, pegasos or Macintosh...

BTW I'm surfing the web since more than an hour with a powerbook G4 12" (7447A @ 1333Mhz/167Mhz) as I'm on the electrical network, it runs always at full speed, but as I browse the web, I don't ask for much calculation from him... The laptop keep cool, and the fan didn't start once.. that's why I said that you should have a problem somewhere.

Back on the topic, seeing informations I gave before, I don't see any problem to put a 7447(A) at 800 to 1000Mhz into a microA1...

@Rogue

Quote:

No need to put that in quotes. It is a feature. In any case, its result is that the memory performance of the A1 is about the same as the Pegasos II with DDR ram.

The feature has a direct influence on the memory performance? The PPC experts will correct me but as far as I remember the point with having DDR ram for G3/G4 cpus is not speed, but availability and lower price. Not speed, because G3/G4 (bus?) cannot handle DDR speed. Right?

feature: so looking back, you would say that yes, the feature was a good idea?

That Mai should carry on having it also in newer chipsets it will bring out in the future?

And having at least the possibility to switch it off, is not wishable either, as that's unneeded because after all it's a feature?

That if MAI offered two versions of it's chipsets, one with the feature, the other without, you will still continue preferring the one with the feature?

@Georg

Quote:

The feature has a direct influence on the memory performance? The PPC experts will correct me but as far as I remember the point with having DDR ram for G3/G4 cpus is not speed, but availability and lower price. Not speed, because G3/G4 (bus?) cannot handle DDR speed. Right?

Despite the G3/G4 FSB limitations you can can still get extra performance from DDR memory if the North Bridge does some kind of speculative pre-fetching - ie, using 'idle' cycles on the memory bus to fill a buffer with data which might be needed in the near future. NVidia's NForce 2 chipset does this using its DASP unit, which exploits the over-specced memory bus (6.4GB, while the Athlon's FSB is limited to 3.2GB) to fill a 64K pre-fetch cache.

The ArticiaS seems to attempt a similar trick without needing a fast memory bus by taking control of the bus when it isn't used by the CPU, in order to fill the internal buffer. This doesn't speed up large block transfers from memory, but can speed up small reads quite significantly by reducing fetch latencies.

To my knowledge the Marvell North Bridge on the Pegasos 2 does not implement such a system, meaning that in theory the A1 should have slightly higher memory performance. There are a range of small technical factors that can have huge effects on memory speed, however, so the reality may be different.

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@elwood
Quote:

Thanks. I thought I was the only one to think it's not expensive.

Don't worry - you're not the only one! I think it's a great price, around the same as an A1200 when it was released (obviously without case etc.).

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@falcon1

Quote:

It could be the fact that your CPU card is badly built (G4 not properly soldered...),

No. It is simply a 7447, not a 7447A.

Quote:

BTW I'm surfing the web since more than an hour with a powerbook G4 12" (7447A @ 1333Mhz/167Mhz) as I'm on the electrical network, it runs always at full speed, but as I browse the web, I don't ask for much calculation from him... The laptop keep cool, and the fan didn't start once.. that's why I said that you should have a problem somewhere.

Are you actually reading what I am saying? I didn't say that I have any sort of problem with the CPU. It's just getting hot. The cooler I have on it is a chipset cooler, and cannot cool it when I go higher. Did you finally understand that?

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@Georg

Quote:

The feature has a direct influence on the memory performance? The PPC experts will correct me but as far as I remember the point with having DDR ram for G3/G4 cpus is not speed, but availability and lower price. Not speed, because G3/G4 (bus?) cannot handle DDR speed. Right?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the DDR ram is supposed to run at a higher clock speed? I know that PowerPC's cannot use DDR. I was under the impression that this runs at 166 Mhz as opposed to 133, but then, I don't know for certain.

Quote:

feature: so looking back, you would say that yes, the feature was a good idea? That Mai should carry on having it also in newer chipsets it will bring out in the future? And having at least the possibility to switch it off, is not wishable either, as that's unneeded because after all it's a feature?

Why do you ask? You're not the least interested in the answer.

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@PulsatingQuasar
Quote:

And offcourse I will buy a second copy of OS 4. Well, I mean a third. The BlizzardPPC wants one aswell.

I already own an A1XE-G4, but I'm rather miffed that my stalwart A1200 with BlizzardPPC is sitting alongside, unused. Once OS4 for the Blizzard is released...

It'll be good to get the old gal running again

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@DrBombcrater

Note that DASP unit was still included and operating in single channel nForce2 400 (non-Ultra variants). With dual channel mode nForce2, excess memory bus bandwidth is also given to DMA enabled devices (via a crossbar technology).

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@Rogue

Official DDR400?s is still clocked at 200Mhz, which is not too far from it?s SDR origins e.g. 133/166 SDR. DDR2* and DDR3 are ones that cranks up the clock speed e.g. real clock +300Mhz.

I have managed to over clock 133 SDR ram modules to 150 SDR in MSI-6330 V3** (later it suffered an ATX power circuit failure).

* By increasing latency timings (e.g. Intel 925). Yet another Mhz marketing but applied for memory modules. Not factoring in DDR memory modules in gfx cards.
** Decommissioned Athlon t-bird and VIA KT133A motherboard setup. I guess MSI-6330 V3?s power circuits was not up to intended EV6 400DDR specs. The power brick was 350 Watts?

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@Rogue

Quote:

That's true, but for desktop systems only. For someone wanting to be in the server business, the low power consumption of the PowerPC CPU is a factor.

Low power consumption is one factor i.e.
Dell(2nd rank overall) has server unit growth of 20 percent (mostly Intel Xeon),
Sun(4th rank overall) has server unit growth of 38 percent (unit growth due to Opteron).

Server market is divided into segments.

Quote:

Imagine a big web server farm, and factor in what money you save on power and air conditioning alone...

There's always the mobile drop in substitutes. PPC G4e @1.4Ghz targets is within Opteron LP*** (140/240/840 @1.4Ghz) targets i.e. 30 watts (1.1 volt * 26 Amps = 28.6 Watt).

For 7447A's electricals refer to
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc5387.pdf

@1000Mhz, 8Watt typical,
@1267Mhz, 18.3Watt typical, 26 Watt max power.
@1420Mhz, 26Watt typical, 30 Watt max power.

***Renamed to EE, a pun on Intel?s PIV EE.

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Why did people need to bring the P* word here again....

but anyway....

@Rogue

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but the DDR ram is supposed to run at a higher clock speed? I know that PowerPC's cannot use DDR. I was under the impression that this runs at 166 Mhz as opposed to 133, but then, I don't know for certain."

The P2 has 133Mhz FSB.

(not sure if the northbridge - RAM interface runs @ 2*100 , 2* 133 or 2*166 or what, but I would quess 2*133 for easier synchronization)

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@DrBombcrater

"And, yes, there are Pentium-M mini-ITX boards."

WOW. If I ever buy x86 mini-ITX board, that could/would be the one!
Good example what can be achieved with multibillion dollar market & billion dollar budget. (pigs can be made to fly

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@DruidPoet

Years ago Amiga had modern apps and also was more or less cost competitive. So when you bought that accelerator you really had a fast computer compared to current peecees.

Now, in the year 2004 you'll say "I've bought a g3 with 256MB of ram and that only has costed me 667?"

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@DrBombcrater

I'm not the one who left Pentium-M out. I just replied to the dofus who said a C3 was somehow good

_________________
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Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@KimmoK

Note that, IBM also has multi-billion dollar budget...

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@Rogue

I think he is interested.

The idea of having a floating buffer where CPU snooping on DMA transfers can be enabled doesn't seem to silly, does it? Of course, that's extra Si which might not be doable, but in theory it would be awesome. OS4 knows how to use the floating buffer for full effect? Ok, don't enable snooping. Linux doesn't? Ok, enable it.

If that's your attitude towards questions, then I think you need a break from forums. I have a free sofa and all the cool toys you can imagine (small boat with tons of fishing gear, guns and ammo, bows and arrows, bicycles, Amigas. Soon also a 2Mb over fibre). Think about it

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.