@Tigger

Quote:

Honestly I'm not sure how you can be serious and say you read it as a buyin. The language is not vague. Its says "..Hyperion shall transfer all Source Code, interest and title in OS 4.0 to Amiga.."

This is the only thing that I seem to agree with you on.
Hyperion's lawyer is trying some fancy footwork on this one.

Edit:

Mind you I still think that Hyperion's distribution rights to OS 4 would still stand after the buyback, their right to develop beyond OS4.0 would cease.

Last edited by Spectre660 on 08-Nov-2007 at 04:15 AM.

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@Tigger

Quote:

Since it doesnt explicitly say that, Hyperions lawyer would be wrong. So where does the 90K number come from in your opinion? -Tig

"illicit voucher schemes"

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

But for the sake of discussion you seem to be deciding against Hyperion based on Ben's public forum posts rather than your intepretation of the actual contract.

I don't know how to interperate the contract other than how the original author publicly stated. The contract may not be legally interperated that way in the long run but according to all the public discussions at the time it seems Ben thought along the lines of a buy back being a possibility. I can not see how you can dismiss what Ben said about the contract at the time as that gives us a real insight into how the parties viewed the contract before the posturing for takeover. I don't take much stock in either sides legal arguments as they both have problems with the truth lately. Just when was OS4 finished and the developers paid again?

My point is it seems Ben at one time interperated it one way and now Hyperion's arguments seem to go another way. I actually do want to "decide this on morality", which is why I am hesitant to support the ip grab. I can not see how Bolton Peck or coupon scam has anything to do with the contract with Hyperion, unless it is alright to steal a car from the neighbor because he cheats on his income taxes.

@Spectre660

Quote:

Spectre660 wrote: @Tigger Quote: Honestly I'm not sure how you can be serious and say you read it as a buyin. The language is not vague. Its says "..Hyperion shall transfer all Source Code, interest and title in OS 4.0 to Amiga.." This is the only thing that I seem to agree with you on. Hyperion's lawyer is trying some fancy footwork on this one. Edit: Mind you I still think that Hyperion's distribution rights to OS 4 would still stand after the buyback, their right to develop beyond OS4.0 would cease.

That is an excellent point! Where would the target hardware come from?

@Spectre660

Quote:

Spectre660 wrote: @Tigger Quote: Since it doesnt explicitly say that, Hyperions lawyer would be wrong. So where does the 90K number come from in your opinion? -Tig "illicit voucher schemes"

Agreed, so why should Hyperion get the voucher money?
-Tig

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@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @Dandy Quote: Dandy wrote: @Tigger [quote] Tigger wrote: @COBRA ... and $50 on the Amiga contest, which eventually became sCAM ... Could you explain this a little bit more detailed, please?

For $50 you got an entry into the drawing for a free AmigaOne, ... Or is that not what you were asking about?
-Tig
[/quote]

Nah - it's O.K. - I was just wondering what you meant with "Amiga contest"...
Thanks for explaining!

_________________
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Dandy
__________________________________________
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He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @Dandy Quote: Dandy wrote: Hey man - the parties to the contract are even numbered - can't you count/read up to "3" - or what's your problem here with accepting that it's a three party contract? It's clearly stated there that the contract is by and between 1) , 2) and 3)! No its a two party contract between 3 companies, I realize its a nuance that may be hard to understand, but the contract is a two party contract between 3 companies. Hyperion and Eyetech are treated as a single party in the contract. -Tig

To my understanding there are 3 parties to that contract - they are even numbered.
I really don't get why you think it's just a two party contract.

As far as I know it would require a contract between Hyperion and Eyetech - stating that Hyperion and Eyetech are going to act together - like a joint venture.

As far as we know there is no such "Joint Venture" contract between Hyperion and Eyetech - so we're talking about a three party contract.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @Dandy Quote: Dandy wrote: @Tigger [quote] Tigger wrote: @COBRA ... No, the contract is not a three party contract as several of us have pointed out, its a two party contract with Eyetech and Hyperion as a one of the parties that are in fact called the AmigaOne Partners. ... Yes, you repeatedly stated that - but we are still waiting for a proof for your allegetion.

Two Party Contracts

-Tig
[/quote]

Well, I followed your link and found this:
"... A good solution to this difficulty — and one that sure beats the archaic "party of the first part" and "party of the second part" — is the "two-handed" approach: "This Agreement is made and entered into by and between Joan, on the one hand, and Francine and Loretta, on the other.""

Hmmmmm - but the contract in question does not provide this ""two-handed" approach".

As I said earlier - to my understanding a "Joint Venture" requires a contract that regulates all business aspects of this Joint Venture.

I'd consider any legal system as a (very bad) joke if it says that things like

"by and between
1) Amiga Inc ...
and
2) Hyperion VOF
3) Eyetech Group Ltd"

are sufficiant to form a "Joint Venture" legally.

Where are the conditions that partnership is meant to be based upon?
Where is the document between Hyperion and Eytech that clearly states:

"We - Hyperion and Eyetech - agree to form an entity for...
Hyperions rights/duties are...
Eyetechs rights/duties are...
Court having jurisdiction is..."

Are you going to tell us, that in the US it requires a court decision to declare a company "insolvent", even if its CEO swore at court that they are insolvent - but a Joint Venture can be legally formed in a kind of subordinate clause in a contract about writing an OS?

Naahhhh - c'mon - be reasonable...

Last edited by Dandy on 08-Nov-2007 at 07:57 AM.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Tigger
> so why should Hyperion get the voucher money?

The contract says that Hyperion gets the full interest in AmigaOS4 sales.
With the coupon (that is applicable to the purchase of AmigaOS4), Hyperion would not get it, which contradicts the contract.

_________________

@_PAB_

Hmmm.. IMHO;

Amiga inc "sells" a voucher for 50 euro that gives 50 euro rebate on OS4.

Hyperion sells OS4 for 100 euro.
Buyer pays 100 euro gets os 4 from Hyperion

Buyer asks Amiga inc to redeem his 50 euro voucher.
Buyer gets 50 euro from Amiga inc.

So, where does this harm the sales of Hyperion ? Might even get them more sales.

Last edited by Seer on 08-Nov-2007 at 10:50 AM.

_________________
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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
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@Seer

Quote:

@_PAB_ Hmmm.. IMHO; Amiga inc "sells" a voucher for 50 euro that gives 50 euro rebate on OS4. Hyperion sells OS4 for 100 euro. Buyer pays 100 euro gets os 4 from Hyperion Buyer asks Amiga inc to redeem his 50 euro voucher. Buyer gets 50 euro from Amiga inc. So, where does this harm the sales of Hyperion ? Might even get them more sales.

Normally you have an agreement in place with the manufacturer with a system like this. if you dont then your scheme could conflict with promotions done by the manufacturer.

Last edited by Spectre660 on 08-Nov-2007 at 11:11 AM.

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@Tigger

Quote:

Agreed, so why should Hyperion get the voucher money? -Tig.

Its a technical argument. Amiga Inc and Hyperion should have had an agreement or written understanding on how the discount scheme should work as it affects
Hyperions marketing rights .

_________________
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@Seer
Quote:

Amiga inc "sells" a voucher for 50 euro that gives 50 euro rebate on OS4

The voucher was not redeemable for purchasing OS4, but only for a complete AmigaOne with OS 4.0
Quote:

Customers who are interested in purchasing an AmigaOne/AmigaOS 4.0 pre-loaded will be able to purchase a $50.00 off coupon for $50.00! This way we have a very strong idea regarding how many boards we need to produce.

When AmigaOnes were delivered we were told that the vouchers weren't payable until OS4 was available, then it was until the official release date (not the pre-release), then ....

@stew

Quote:

That is an excellent point! Where would the target hardware come from?

anything PPC Eyeteck produced.

New versions of OS4.x could have also been done by HYperion under new contracts
as was done with the Artic port or Amiga could have found another company to do versions 4.1 onwards or take it in house.

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@RedMelons

Doesn't matter in the point I was making.

Replace OS4 for "AmigaOne with OS4" and in effect, nothing changed for Hyperion selling OS4. If it doesn't apply for OS4 Classic it still doesn't hurt the sales Hyperion could make with selling OS4.

Amiga inc sold a voucher for 50 euro that gives a buyer 50 euro back for buying something from another company. It might indeed class with a promotional from that other sure, but I don't think it would have hurt any sales at all.

I don't think Apple would mind much if Amiga was giving everybody who bought Leopard 50 euro anyway.. Apple get's money from their customers, and those customers get money from somebody else for being a Apple customer. Sounds like a great deal to me for both Apple and their customers.

_________________
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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
~

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote: @Tigger I'd consider any legal system as a (very bad) joke if it says that things like "by and between 1) Amiga Inc ... and 2) Hyperion VOF 3) Eyetech Group Ltd" are sufficiant to form a "Joint Venture" legally. Where are the conditions that partnership is meant to be based upon? Where is the document between Hyperion and Eytech that clearly states:

Sorry but thats US law, in fact thats what this article is about, and it points out how poorly this contract is written. If they had wanted this to be a 3 party contract, then they needed to do it differently. Besides the beginning, the one AND as I pointed out earlier, the total lack of a description of the relationship between Hyperion and Eyetech under the contract is a big clue that they are a single party to the contract.

Quote:

Are you going to tell us, that in the US it requires a court decision to declare a company "insolvent", even if its CEO swore at court that they are insolvent - but a Joint Venture can be legally formed in a kind of subordinate clause in a contract about writing an OS?

Being insolvent gives you all kinds of rights under Title 11, so you cant just declare yourself insolvent anymore then you can declare yourself bankrupt. Do you think that if Bill had said they were bankrupt during his testimony that would have been accurate? If Bill Gates tomorrow said Microsoft is insolvent in court, do you believe that would be the end of it all, the stock would be zeroed out on Nasdaq, and most of there debts unpaid or do you think a court would look at the situation to see if it was accurate. As I keep pointing out, US Law says debts must exceed assets for you to be insolvent, at no time prior to April 24, 2003 did AI's debts (a few 100K) exceed the value of its assets (IP, Trademarks, etc). Bill may have been correct saying they met the standards of what we call a cash flow insolvency (debts exceed ability to pay them), but that won't be the standard AI is held to in a federal court, since that isnt the federal definition.
-Tig

Last edited by Tigger on 08-Nov-2007 at 01:00 PM.

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@_PAB_

Quote:

_PAB_ wrote: @Tigger > so why should Hyperion get the voucher money? The contract says that Hyperion gets the full interest in AmigaOS4 sales. With the coupon (that is applicable to the purchase of AmigaOS4), Hyperion would not get it, which contradicts the contract.

No, the coupons were to be paid after the fact. You bought an AmigaOne and OS4, you sent you receipt and coupon in, AI sent you money. Its a rebate, like my Sony analogy a few pages back, and it costs Hyperion no money despite what they claim. In addition, since they sold every single AmigaOne that they had manufactured (and had a demand for more), they cannot show it cost them sales (ie people didnt buy the item because the coupons werent being redeemed) because every single unit was sold and there was still a demand. In addition its interesting that despite not selling 1800 units they believe they should get all the coupon money from AI which means if they win AI won't owe anyone coupon money, but I'm sure Hyperion would be sending those checks out right away . The fact they only would owe for about 600 checks or less and they would be getting money for 1800 or so will will probably help with that issue.
-Tig

_________________
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@Spectre660

Quote:

Spectre660 wrote: @Tigger Quote: Agreed, so why should Hyperion get the voucher money? -Tig. Its a technical argument. Amiga Inc and Hyperion should have had an agreement or written understanding on how the discount scheme should work as it affects Hyperions marketing rights .

Actually they are saying it cost them money, so its not a technical arguement and they are asking for the money for all 1800 vouchers, despite selling less then 1000 units and not all of them qualified for the vouchers, you dont see a problem with that. Plus they didnt pay the vouchers themselves so they didnt lose money that way and they didnt lose sales because they sold every unit they could sell and still had a demand. So where is the financial loss here that should get them (not the actual people who bought the vouchers) the $50 per person. I'm honestly surprised there isnt more outrage that after years of Hyperion saying you were stupid to give AI $50 and we arent going to give you money back that Hyperion has basically asked the court for them to be given the $50, after they have done nothing for it.
-Tig

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@RedMelons

Quote:

RedMelons wrote: When AmigaOnes were delivered we were told that the vouchers weren't payable until OS4 was available, then it was until the official release date (not the pre-release), then ....

So do you think its ok that Hyperion gets your $50 rebate instead of you?
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Spectre660

So Hyperion was done as soon as Eyetech quit? I was asking about new hardware.
Quote:

Mind you I still think that Hyperion's distribution rights to OS 4 would still stand after the buyback, their right to develop beyond OS4.0 would cease

What good is distribution rights with no reason to distribute? Hyperion and Eyetech did noy do each other any favors.