@jas_mc

better invest in my education and amigaos machine, then i will port it for free & pleasure

_________________
"Marxism must abhor nothing so much as the possibility that it becomes congealed in its current form. It is at its best when butting heads in self-criticism, and in historical thunder and lightning, it retains its strength" - Rosa Luxemburg.

@tomazkid

Quote:

tomazkid wrote: Authorities will get access to everything you write, and as it looks in Europe, we are in the post-democratic era, and as it seems, the former Eastern block surveillance was nothing compared to what EU is introducing.

OT: that's right, what's more - the internet subversive potential (Facebook/Twitter usage in Arab revolutions) forces Western countries to try to block some activities against the 'western democratic' systems (and, what's the most important, against the economic system), eg Facebook dropped the Intifada page and "has taken down dozens of pages in a purge of activists' accounts" (UK Uncut, Intifada)
I introduce a risky thesis that Cloud can be safe, if your actions do not constitute an obstacle for the rich or the government.

_________________
"Marxism must abhor nothing so much as the possibility that it becomes congealed in its current form. It is at its best when butting heads in self-criticism, and in historical thunder and lightning, it retains its strength" - Rosa Luxemburg.

@jas_mc

Quote:

To be honest, I'm slightly suspicious of any "we don't even NEED blah blah blah, it's not even good!" claims about missing features 'cos I think that kind of stuff is likely to be sour grapes

Yes, I'd prefer the form "it would be better if development effort was spent elsewhere" - with that sour grapes example, getting some food that you can get.

Quote:

- I think it's going to be a long time before a web app offers literally all the features of a modern word processor. I'm sure Google Docs is great for 95% of word processing tasks (e.g., letters, documents with normal formatting), but would be very surprised if it has all the features I need. Mirror margins? Full options for embedding images in different ways (including behind text)? Spacing between lines, paras, and individual characters that can be done by the pixel (13pt), proportionally (1.5), or absolutely (0.7cm)? All the fonts I need and option to install more? Small caps, superscript, subscript, different page numbering for different sections? I'm sure Google Docs can do some of this stuff but would be bloody impressed if it can do all!

Sounds like you haven't even tried if it's already good enough?

Anyway, missing features can be an issue. Does OpenOffice have all of those, by the way? (assuming it will get ported in the distant future)

Quote:

- Offline work. One day I'd like to see AmigaOS 4.1 on a laptop or netbook so I can use it on the train. There's no cloud at all on the train I get.

What exactly prevents browser-based programs from being run without network connection? Could you enlighten us?

Quote:

- More generally, an argument for "the cloud" feels like an argument against OSes as we understand them. If you're doing your basic computing tasks in a browser window then the OS becomes less and less important

And that's EXACTLY the point. It doesn't matter if the OS is much more "primitive" (like OS4) and lacking in common programs, browser-based programs work as good as they do on the other systems!

(of course as long as they don't need proper flash support etc.)

Quote:

- Lastly, part of the fun of using an operating system like AmigaOS 4.1 is everything being a bit different. Why would someone pay more for less powerful hardware if they're just going to be using the same browser-based, OS-transcending web apps as Windows, Mac, and Linux users? At least with a port to native like Open Office Lite, the gui would be different.

Firstly, if we get OpenOffice (and that's a very big if, if you ask me), it doesn't mean it would even have "native" UI. Does it have it on ANY other platform anyway?

In the worst case, (assuming it gets released some day in the distant future), it will run within X environment. Is that any more "native" than offline browser-based program? In my opinion, not.

@Jupp3

Quote:

Sounds like you haven't even tried if it's already good enough?

Don't know if he has or hasn't, but I have, and Google Docs is pretty much on the level of a low end text editor with a tiny subset of word processing features thrown in.

Perhaps on the level of TextEdit on OS X and not quite at the level of WordPad for Windows. What it has on top of that which still makes it useful is the online storage combined with sharing (e.g. you can have multiple people edit the document at the same time and post comments about it). If/when you don't need those things, there are no real benefits to Google Docs.

It's nowhere near a word processor replacement for anything but the simplest of use that's trivially met by dozens of other programs. What it does it does quite well, and I use it a lot for the sharing/online aspect of it, but I also frequently use OpenOffice for the myriad of things that Google Docs doesn't provide.

It's years of development away - even with Google's resources - from being a replacement for a full office suite.

_________________
Wiki for new/returning Amiga users - Projects: ACE basic compiler / FrexxEd / Git

@Petah

Yes, google docs is quite nice. I use it quite to some extend for my univerity job. It's nice to have acces to the same document with the same application at home with my MorphOS maschine and with the Windows boxes at university.
Of course privacy may be an issue, but I don't edit how to make a nuclear bomb with google docs.
OOo may be a nice thing (I use it under OS X, Linux and Win), but I seriously doubt it will come for AmigaOS soon. The OOo4kids effort is going probably nowhere while I can use google docs with OWB since quite some time already. Or to sum it up: While some are still dreaming about potential future options I have actually done quite some work.



This screen shot nicely shows how the situation today is in Amigaland. Productive work can be done already.

_________________
My programs: via.bckrs.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

@

Here's why AmigaOS doesn't need OpenOffice.

Guess it really depends on what you use an Amiga for and perhaps how the
platform is viewed from a personal POV.

For me the view is;

Office suite on a Amiga

What the heck for

Well, , , , , I guess some might want that. OK with me.

@Jupp3

"Sounds like you haven't even tried it"

I have - briefly - just to see if it was more performant than Abiword running under Amicygnix for my purposes. My test was trying to load and edit a novel-length document. Google Docs failed - like Abiword it isn't fit for that purpose on my Sam - so I didn't stick around long enough to find out all its features.

I've tried Zoho writer and was impressed by the features, but again, no more performant than Abiword. And probably not quite enough features for my purposes.

"What exactly prevents browser-based programs from being run without network connection? Could you enlighten us?"

Nothing in principle - but if you know of a browser-based program that will live on my hard disk (rather than a sever somewhere) and work entirely offline without depending on a) an initial visit to the website before switching to offline mode or b) a browser plugin that isn't available for an AmigaOS browser then feel free to enlighten me

There was actually an attempt to build an open source browser-based word processor - I forget what it's called and don't know whether it's being actively developed. I wondered at one point whether it would be worth someone getting those sources and essentially making a word processor that lived on your disk and opened a OWB window when you clicked on it. But we come back to the features problem and that feels quite hacky.

"And that's EXACTLY the point. It doesn't matter if the OS is much more 'primitive' (like OS4) and lacking in common programs, browser-based programs work as good as they do on the other systems!"

Except they don't. Not on my Sam anyway

But in this regard, functional browser-based apps are just a safety net which (when they work well) will take some of the pain out of using a non-standard system. If your OS doesn't have a word processor, then obviously, being able to use Google Docs levels the playing field slightly and makes it easier to get by. But if system X costs less and is more powerful, and comes with a free word processor and also has a web-based one available, then why would you pick system Y, which is less powerful, costs more, and only has the web-based word processor?

Right now, the answer is obviously because you prefer the OS and the other stuff you can do in it but if we're content to leave basic computing tasks to the cloud all the time, then the operating system will eventually become an irrelevance: something you experience very briefly before opening Firefox.

"Firstly, if we get OpenOffice (and that's a very big if, if you ask me), it doesn't mean it would even have 'native' UI."

Oh, agreed (on both the sentiment and the "if"). Which is why I said I would be more excited by a project to update Amiga Writer or make Cinnamon Writer fit for purpose I keep meaning to find out whether Cinnamon Writer is still an active project 'cos it looks slightly moribund currently...?

Anyway, I'm not dissing browser word processors. But the fact that they're suitable for most word processing tasks (and might be suitable for some people 100% of the time) doesn't mean AmigaOS can get away with not having a word processor, because other people have needs that can't be met by any of the current browser-based word processors.

"Who needs Open Office when it's all going to the cloud" is a faulty argument because an OS needs to offer a range of options for different people with different needs. It's like saying "We don't need X, Y, and Z kind of messenger because we've got Sabre MSN and can use Facebook chat" (no consolation if all of your friends and family use X, Y or Z). Having Sabre MSN is definitely a plus, and being able to do *some* IM makes AmigaOS stronger, but let's not pretend you couldn't make AmigaOS better by having more options in that or indeed any other area of day-to-day computing.

Equally, "We don't need a word processor because we've got Google Docs" is no consolation if you want to format and re-format a long, private document on your Sam without it hanging all the time I'm sure it's fine if you want to write a letter or essay, but if you're dealing with longer documents where you need to tweak the formatting and get it just right, then sadly it's not enough.

True, I can just fire up my Windows 7 or Linux laptops, but I think AmigaOS would be improved by a good, functional word processor. Surely anything that will allow Amigans to do more of their computing stuff in AmigaOS is good for the operating system?

Last edited by jas_mc on 08-May-2011 at 10:48 PM.
Last edited by jas_mc on 08-May-2011 at 10:47 PM.

_________________
My new blog

@jas_mc

Of course you right! Your just feeding the trolls on this thread. Better off going and doing something productive, some people around here don't listen to reason and just hark on for hours at a time talking crap.

_________________

@vidarh

Quote:

Google Docs is pretty much on the level of a low end text editor with a tiny subset of word processing features thrown in.

Regarding missing features, perhaps this could be used instead? ;)

@Petah

I think your wrong on this one, it may be the future but not for the now. Cloud computing is not that refined, I attempted to satisfy my need of office apps on my amiga by using google docs etc but it was a real down grade from the power that you get with the real thing like open office and microsoft office. AmigaOS needs decent productivity software and editing software with new hardware to ever be taken seriously other than a hobby retro computing experience and openoffice port is a step in the right direction a small step but a step none the less.

_________________
Amiga A1200T - TF1260 - R9200 - Indivision AGA MK3
Amiga A500 - PiStorm EMU68
Pegasos 2 G4 - AmigaOS 4.1 FE / MorphOS 3.16

For now I use abiword and Gnumeric via AmiCygnix, but I'm not a big office app user.

I am usually not online, and I don't trust "the cloud", but if it's acceptable to others, then fine. I'd rather have programs running on my local machine.

@Petah

Quote:

Petah wrote: - not in bloated software ports with stack requirements beyond 4,096 bytes.

There are many powerful advantages to using a stack larger than 4096 bytes.

_________________
Wanna try a wonderfull magical Amiga strategy game?
Total Chaos AGA

@ChaosLord

Quote:

Quote: Petah wrote: - not in bloated software ports with stack requirements beyond 4,096 bytes. There are many powerful advantages to using a stack larger than 4096 bytes.

Like "not crashing when program really needs more than that?

Seriously, that's the only "advantage" I can think of...

@Petah

Quote:

Petah wrote: The recent talk about moving over office suits to AmigaOS is quickly getting old. The future is in the cloud - not in bloated software ports with stack requirements beyond 4,096 bytes. ...

Sorry to disappoint you, but I do certainly not like the idea to store my private mails "somewhere" in the public web.


I certainly prefer to BUY "bloated software ports with stack requirements beyond 4,096 bytes" for my documents, as long as this guarantees me control over my own work.

The same goes for companies.
E.G. Ford would never ever create or store their classified documents at a location beyond their control.

Last edited by Dandy on 13-May-2011 at 06:32 AM.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

The only reason I can think of why Office software took over on teh PC etc, and the Amiga hasnt really ever had it, is because of something called IFF on the Amiga.

Interchange File Format.

All programs that support the format can save, load, transfer, share that data between themselves.

this means you can have a company that only writes word processors, a company that only writes spreadsheets, yet another for DTP, for Graphics, etc etc

You can pull a text file from a word processor of your choice and images from a graphics package, into a DTP package, with automated scripting, mail merge methods etc, all because of the mostly standardised file support.

These days teh only real standards are JPG, GIF, MPEG etc.. Doc is a memory dump, and the only real standard attampt, That I understand.. is RTF, which seems to be based in some way on IFF?

As for XML.. This is IFF where the machine tokens have been replace with American English text, so that language generalisation and translation cannot be automatically handled at the machine, standard level.

So, do you want to support the Micosoft method yet again?
How is it even Possible, that minor file handling programs can be larger than the OS they run on?

Does Office include ten thousand drivers for hardware? Wheres teh standardisation in file, API etc there?

What happened to the Protext collection? Amiga, Atari ST, PC etc Sorry for not being able to remember the names of the collection of programs, but why do you need all the extra stuff, when hammering TEXT out? for general home use, WordPad is more than good enough for what you want. You can even code in it.

Terminal or full GUI, where lies the middle ground where the average person works?

_________________
The older and more respected a scientist is, the longer it takes to prove him wrong.

@RodTerl

Well when I talk about "office software", really my personal need is just for a word processor. It doesn't have to be open office and it doesn't have to be bloated and it doesn't have to be be fully integrated with an Excel clone and a Powerpoint clone. I just want a passable word processor

@Thread

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm dissing AmigaOS 4.1. Far from it - it's precisely because I'm enjoying the OS so much that I wish I didn't have to ditch it whenever I need to do some speedy word processing! I think it's probable that the short term solution is to use Notepad and do the formatting on the PC when I'm finished.

Browser apps are great, but even though last.fm and Spotify exist, any OS will also need a passable mp3 player. Even though we have webmail, you still need mail clients. For choice if nothing else. A browser that let you play browser-based games online wouldn't make porting games to your OS a waste of time. If Google Docs means we don't need a word processor, then arguably there isn't a huge amount you *do* need, other than Timberworld (EDIT: I mean Timberwolf! - but if we depend on the cloud too much, Timberworld would be a good name for the future of AmigaOS )

Final thought from me, but lastly, the fact that you don't need or want something doesn't mean it wouldn't be good for the OS. I haven't used a standalone mail client for about 14 years, but lots of people do and it's good that AmigaOS has them. Also, as someone who very nearly never uses USB media, I don't personally give a crap about USB 2.0, but I know it's important for people in general so I wouldn't dismiss someone else's desire for it

Last edited by jas_mc on 09-May-2011 at 08:25 PM.

_________________
My new blog

@Petah @thread

Well, first of all, I hope that you (Petah) are not surprised or shocked about the replies you got for this thread, but you surely imagined it. I can't say I desagree with you but if I can avoid it, I won't use "cloud" applications.

Cinnamon Writer is coming always better and I think if some more features (importing images or use of Datatypes, for example) are implemented, it will be used as often as Finalwriter, Amigawriter or Wordworth in the past years.

At the moment, we don't have heard a lot of the openoffice/OOo4kid/Openoffice lite port, so how long should we wait ? Except the developpers, nobody knows it. We have Abiword and Gnumeric through Amicygnix, and even it is slow on some Amiga machines, they are funcional (we only need to have some patience...).

What could be interesting is that some people who like to make Arexx/C++/C scripts, create scripts to import/export for example ODT/S, MS-Office or even HTML files (or use of datatypes) for our existing and working old office programs (Wordworth, TurboCalc, AmigaWriter, Finalwriter, etc.). Wordworth is a powerful wordprocessor which I use regularly and if I need a document to be shown/used on a PC; either I use the RTF file format or I convert into the old .doc file format. Also TurboCalc is great (the only problem is that it can't print on USB port). Yes they are 68k, but work fine (I think AmigaWriter is more unstable).

We don't have to be "blind" but everyone knows that ADF files of old commercial softs (which couldn't be found in other way) can be downloaded on many websites. This could be a call to all of you (developpesr/producers/games-soft editors) to bring back your apps on the new Amiga machines.

In my mind, the best thing which brought the Amiga, is the use of Datatypes. Some of them are still updated, but now we need also some other for the new file formats.

Nic

_________________
RedOneX (SAM 460ex) and an A1 which now rests quite.
Amiga OS 4.1.6 and CinemaWare games.
Classic and NG softwares.

@Petah

AmigaOS doesn't need OpenOffice like a car doesn't need a fuel...

_________________
--
-=#Val#=-
Valiant@Camelot


Amiga 1000; Amiga 2000; Amiga 3000T; CD-TV; CD32;
AmigaOne-XE 800Mhz G4;Sam400ep 666Mhz;
AmigaOne X-1000 1.8Ghz PA6T-1682M

@Petah

I do agree that a lot of emphasis should be put into building a great web browser that can support great web apps and then back track to building (or porting) great rich client apps for AmigaOS.

_________________

@Petah

Using Google docs through work, I can say that Google docs are not as userfriendly as MS Office, Open Office/Libre Office.
Say you use Google vault, well, if you have a pdf, xls or doc file there, and it goes offline, that document is gone during offline.
Compability with MS Office is not 100%, in this area Libre and Open Office beats Google docs.
As well as Google really wants you to use their formats, which are not that compatible with rest of the office software.


So no, Google cannot replace MS stuff 100% at the moment, even iof they claim so.

Email is a similar thing, despite claiming Gmail and Google apps being able to replce MS Exchange 100% they can not.
You can't add aliases to emails without either an Exchage server (which makes the whole Google to replace MS a bit pointless), or you need to use third part mail server.

_________________
Site admins are people too..pooff!