@jingof

Quote:

Debian Squeeze is a great OS for build RubyOnRails (RoR), Python and Java-based web applications. What if the XMOS could be leveraged in some way to make it faster, easier to develop these solutions on an X1000 vs other hardware

You can run Debian on anything. You can buy XMOS for $99.

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@thread

What Amiga needs is to take advantage of small order - high priced motherboards. To do this the motherboards need the lowest layers and state of the art.

Minimum multicore CPU, PCI-E, 8 GB DDR3 Ram, WIFI, hardware accelerated 2D/3D and bluray playback via media processor.

Amigaoid compatible Software Development Platform

#1 Universal C/C++ compilers, GUI IDE/ RAD suite

By having a one C compiler for all Amiga systems everyone works off a common set of tools.

#2 update AmigaOS API to include frameworks like QT

#3 Vast repository of examples a Amiga C/C++ code, ranging from simple cli prigrams to gui software.

#4 Universal set of plugins, eg an AREXX plugin makes a program Arexx aware.

#5 A Hyperion developed C/C++ implemtation of Amos Professional Basic programming language to create FAST programs and games.

By having a Hyperion developed Amos Professional, Amiga will ALWAYS have a compatible, working, programming language for beginners.

Equivilent, in time, to Microsofts Visual Basic

#6 Universal Games developer suite C/C++

By changing architecture to PPC, Amiga broke its compatibility with most programming languages and Basic programming languages - the key and most important source of programs to the Amiga platform.

Now we have multiplatform, multi programming language dissaray/ chaos not one 'perfect' solution for fast effecient programming.

#7 Create building blocks of code.

Once we have a standard developer suite we can build, creating modules/plugins to use in other programs. Just like windows OCX controls.

EG new widgets, HTML/XML support, database, internet controls

# 8 With all these tools in place create UNIQUE software thats better that ever, create new games, new OS technology that takes years to reproduce.

We need to take care of our foundations first.

It does not matter how fast and effecient AmigaOS is, if your program or game is written in an ineffecient language or in an ineffecient programming style due to not understanding the latest techniques on how to acheive the goal or not understanding on how to correctly program using the Amiga architecture.

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@opi

Quote:

You can run Debian on anything. You can buy XMOS for $99.

Granted, we don't have enough information about the manner in which XMOS is integrated with the processor, bus system etc. But pending that, there _could_ be a deeper integration than off-the-self parts would allow. Moreover, there is a lot of value in "built-in", since optional add-ons are rarely utilized in software because of the lowest common denominator problem.

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@jingof

I never got direct answer on how XMOS will be implemented on X1000, or on its closed SDK.

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@Birbo

Well, you tell me. And others here. What don't PC's do well today?

I don't think people realise how much today's PCs constrict their ability and creativity rather than enhancing it. Until something new comes out that suddenly makes people say, 'Why have I been stuck with this other crap', people will continue to think that today's limiting PCs are great stuff.

The other thing you have to think about is that if people never see a thing they will never realise what they are missing. If they do get to see it and understand it then suddenly... You can see this all the way and you can see some promising blips occurring in regard to this. I however still feel there is a way to go.

The Amiga already did this in many ways, which I'm sure you could name, and although the system itself might need to be replaced, its ideas could still be expanded upon and taken even further to keep the spirit alive.

But as I say again, if people never see it they will never know that it is better for them. So ultimately anything new would need to be fairly visible and remarkable. It is only then that people can go 'wow' and delve into its features further.

I have discussed with several people I know about the problems today's PCs give them.
So in what ways do today's PCs make our lives harder?
What does your PC do that you don't like?

@gonegahgah

Wow, that's a very vague post. Sounds like you yourself dont even know what it is that you think is so bad about pcs. Additionally you do realise that pc !=Windows, Mac, Linux, etc. dont you? Please enlighten us as to what's so restrictive, and vs. what?

Seriously, if this thread is reflective of a typical Amigan then its no wonder we're become a laughing stock.

@Rose
hehe,... you dont see the irony in typing things like, "When highest volume website of platform starts to have this kind of posts guess what it does to credibility of platform...." ?

Last edited by fishy_fis on 11-Aug-2011 at 02:40 AM.

@opi

Quote:

I never got direct answer on how XMOS will be implemented on X1000, or on its closed SDK.

I think the answers to these questions are critical, and with the board nearing beta testers, hopefully some light will be shed soon.

Still, the question everyone keeps asking is, what value is there for XMOS/XENA integrated on the motherboard?

I'm the first to admit I don't have a compelling answer for that. But, I think it is possible that someone smarter than me could figure it out. And come up with a way to use XMOS/XENA to enable some application or use cases that other motherboards wouldn't be able to emulate so easily.

So, what would that look like. I mean, if someone did find a way to build something on X1000 that increases its appeal, what characteristics would that have, to entice people to pay a premium. In my estimation, the things that make X1000 somewhat unique are:

1) XMOS is standard kit, so no LCD software problem

2) XENA integration of XMOS is proprietary, and beyond XMOS itself. What does XENA do that buying a $99 XMOS chip off-the-shelf couldn't easily emulate? (As you said, we haven't seen specs for that yet, so it remains a critical open question)

3) OS and apps with "fewer annoyances" -- arguably


By my estimation, these are the only 3 really different things about the X1000. Otherwise, it is a motherboard with a microprocessor, not too dissimilar to all the others on offer. Maybe some would say the microprocessor is a differentiator.. I think it is more a means to an end, serving one of the above differentiators, but is not itself a differentiator. But I could be wrong.

The point I'm making is, simple... if the X1000 is to survive, it must develop a broader USP (Unique Selling Proposition). The USP today is basically,

"The X1000 satisfies your intense urge to use the OS you grew up with, better than any competing hardware."

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@fishy_fis

Quote:

@gonegahgah Wow, that's a very vague post. Sounds like you yourself dont even know what it is that you think is so bad about pcs.

Really... I thought @gonegahgah was very clear.

Quote:

Seriously, if this thread is reflective of a typical Amigan then its no wonder we're become a laughing stock.

Yeah.. this thread has gotten wild at times. Still, I think you misunderstand the situation. Most computer companies conduct these sorts of competitive analysis and market surveys behind closed doors. And if you listened in, you'd probably hear 100 bad ideas for every 1 nugget of a good one.

But in the case of the Amiga, there historically hasn't been a competent "board of directors" conducting such an analysis. As a result, some of this thought process is being done out in the open, and it often isn't pretty.

Kind of like sausage making. You don't want to see it happen, but there is a market for what ultimately gets produced.

This thread is sausage making on display.. but those peering on with judgmental disposition, need not apply.

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@jingof

I understood the idea, but he doesnt even go on to suggest why pcs are "so restrictive" and so on, nor does he suggest what is better. Sounded like a thinly vieled version of the "pc's are evil" junk that some amigans love to spout. If the idea is to say that there's better ways to use a computer than Win/Lin/Mac, then I agree (some great software and standards developed for/on them, but very "mechanical" feeling paradigms).

This however has little to do with the physical pc ittself.

@jingof

Quote:

The point I'm making is, simple... if the X1000 is to survive, it must develop a broader USP (Unique Selling Proposition).

You speak true. But every time a consumer is qualifying the USP they are also quantifying the Value Proposition (VP). This is the reason that since the first indications of the X1000 price-point many members of the Amiga community have spoken out in disagreement.

The challenge you outlined is valid. How does one derive a USP based on the 3 differentiators you listed. And after someone figures that out they then have to figure out the Value Proposition. Basically, cost of solution should be equal to or less than the cost of the problem.

In the early days it was simple. Amiga had a clear USP and VP. But many years have past since then.

Expanding on the point @gonegahgah made.
If you had a problem that potentially costs $3000.00, your subconscious value-meter would prefer buying a $1000.00 Windows 7 PC to solve it, rather than a $2500.00 X1000 running AmigaOS 4.2.

So what $3000.00+ problems can an X1000 with AmigaOS 4.2 solve that a sub-$2000.00 Windows 7 PC couldn't, or couldn't do it easily enough or painlessly enough?

That is where @gonegahgah is indicating you'll find a potential use for X1000.

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@jingof

Quote:

The point I'm making is, simple... if the X1000 is to survive, it must develop a broader USP (Unique Selling Proposition). The USP today is basically, "The X1000 satisfies your intense urge to use the OS you grew up with, better than any competing hardware." That's a USP alright... but at this price point, it is a USP with a very limited appeal, that will sell maybe 500 to 1000 units. A better USP might be: "The X1000 allows you to work, play, surf and listen without fear of your system slowing to a crawl by next month, like competing systems do." Would be defensible at lower price points and with more feature equivalence. But this USP is not compelling at the current X1000 price point, and feature set. Therefore, IMO, for the USP to be widened and strengthened, someone will need to figure out how to leverage the above three differentiators to re-build the X1000 USP. You can think these "values" are meaningless, but I still think you'll agree that it is what the system has to work with...

100% agree about "USP", I repeated that in different threads on different foras. However, I think we need other/more USP than you mentioned. Here are some more:

Having a "killer" App
OpenOffice etc. is NOT a killer App (it would still be awsome). It should be an App which either goes
- a totally different way to reach a productivity goal.
- an app which is not available on other systems

an other target market, where it is easier to build an USP
Having an Office package, webbrowsing, email and media stuff is nice. Even on the current "Desktop" market, there are much to many competitors.
However, I donnot have an idea what a niche market it could be. Defenitely not the current "Amiga market". One idea could be a "gaming/training console" like this one:
VR cycletrainer

nothing new, just a "sideeffect"
This seems also to be a strategy, in my opinion: Use the OS technology/know how for a totally different business (I suggested military once -> just an idea not based on deeper business knowledge..). Plus serve the existing Amigamarket as sort of crossfinanced "hobby"

However, to make a businessplan out of those, marketknowledge for the particular market is needed + an awsome new idea to build an USP.

I donnot think we (as Amigans) can get even a tiny little bit from Microsoft/Apple/Linux Desktopmarket... this would be the wrong way for rising sale numbers. But maybe we donnot even need to rise sale figures.

regards gerograph

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@jingof

Thanks for backing me up. I'm not sure if fishy is serious or just trying to prod.

@fishy

I have both Windows and Linux on my system. I have a friend with one of the new Macs. I even have some awareness of some of the ways that they do some things.

The fact that I use the systems shows I don't find them evil. Just limiting. There are things I want to be able to do but I can't. I find it interesting that there are others I know who have some experiences like that as well.

The Amiga of course is still - obviously - in many ways limited too for what I would like to be able to do. So I didn't exclude it. When I referred to some of its ideas needing to be taken even further than they have so far, I would hope that this is evident.

I'm not talking about the latest hardware features. Instead, I'm talking about how the system can bring out the creativity in us (and not stifle us) and allow us to do things more in the way we need or want to do them and do so easier.

I'm sure many others have encountered similar problems and have just accepted them as part of the nature of the beast and have just lived with it. I'm even sure that in their acceptance they may not even realise to question it.

I think there are ways to improve upon the situation immensely and in some ways I think the Amiga is a big help to pointing to some of the ways.

So my question was simple. Are today's PC's (Mac, Linux, Windows, Amiga, etc.) perfect already? If not in what ways are they not perfect?

One of the ways to examine this includes thinking about what the Amiga does well that other systems don't do well. That doesn't address all problems because there are some things the Amiga still does in the same or similar way that the other systems do that could be done better and there are other things the other systems do better. But it is a good beginning...

Last edited by gonegahgah on 11-Aug-2011 at 11:25 AM.
Last edited by gonegahgah on 11-Aug-2011 at 11:23 AM.

@fishy_fis

Quote:

fishy_fis wrote: @jingof I understood the idea, but he doesnt even go on to suggest why pcs are "so restrictive" and so on, nor does he suggest what is better. This however has little to do with the physical pc ittself.

From a very low level point of view the problem with PCs is no commonality and
no way to use 'Set Patch'.

A problem neither Macs or Amigas have.

From a business/consumer relationship view. Business calls it a rapid development
cycle, consumers see it as a rapid obsolescence cycle.

My 2p.

@gonegahgah

Please make some examples... what do you want to do? What things are you searching?

Please explain with some examples, so everybody understands

Thanks

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@Mechanic

Well done Mechanic.

I agree that things need to be looked at from a very low level (and with a consumer perspective in mind). Commonality can mean different things. For the Macs it means a common way of doing things. To me it can be broader in its meaning. Macs make it easier to do things but can be restrictive on the user in their own way too.

Obsolescence is another good word and a good observation of a problem. Yes there is a lot of this. It is getting better (and worse) but I think there are still better ways than what is happening.

Last edited by gonegahgah on 11-Aug-2011 at 12:20 PM.

@gerograph

You're not specifically referring to what I am talking about but your mention of 'killer app' caught my eye.

I too am not sure what the unique selling point can be either beyond that that jingof has described so well. But I hope the X1000 has its success. I'm certainly looking at it though the price is a little scary...

I just wanted to borrow that idea of 'killer app' if I may though I know it doesn't really supply the answer that you are actually putting to the thread and it's help with. Sorry about that.

Diverting this idea, again with my apologies, I'm not too enamored with the idea of thinking of this process as an 'app'. Although the fuller word 'application' does refer to the broader sense of how to do something, generally 'app' is taken to mean 'program' or a particular piece of included software that makes a system compelling to purchase.

I would prefer to approach it as a 'killer' way of doing something or doing things that appeals to people so much that they want that.

The game 'Defender of the Crown' was a 'killer' app in the sense of the word and helped to sell a lot of Amiga's. I think we are probably beyond that stage now where a single 'app' will make that much difference to a system. I think the difference lies more in the 'way that we are enabled to do things' and that this needs to be such a thing that it cries out to be done so that there is a killer need to do it. But, as I said also, if people don't experience it, it still won't achieve anything. It will just be hearsay. So that is part of the problem in itself.

But of course without a killer way of doing things in the first place you can't progress to people not realising that it exists and try to address that. So it is kind of important; though ideally both will be looked at hand-in-hand.

So, to still include your original thought, the X1000 would really need to come up with a killer way of doing something or things; rather than a killer app per se; to compel a broader market to buy it. If we think in that sense we might even be able to come up with some ideas... What things will it be able to do or be able to be made to do that will make it appeal and to who will that appeal be?

Last edited by gonegahgah on 11-Aug-2011 at 12:24 PM.
Last edited by gonegahgah on 11-Aug-2011 at 12:16 PM.

@opi
Quote:

opi wrote: I never got direct answer on how XMOS will be implemented on X1000, or on its closed SDK.

This graphic should suffice to answer how it is implemented on the hardware side: http://a-eon.com/pics/xena.jpg

Regarding the SDK, it isn't closed in the sense that the SDK publically available from XCORE applies to the "Xena" chip as well.
I doubt we will see an OS4 version of the XMOS devkit/simulator anytime soon, but by the time the X1000 is available to the public I would expect a native XMOS/C compiler and other necessary tools.

@Thread
The thread seems to mostly focus on the X1000, and while I can see some great potential in it for specialized uses made possible by it's CPU and XMOS chip like massive encryption, sensor data processing, automation, etc, it also limits the potential for high volume sales to industrial and ubergeek customers, so I don't think the X1000 would be the best hardware around which we should base the application which is meant to significantly increase the popularity of the Amiga.

On the hardware side I'd say we need a tiny Amiga no larger than a MacMini or PS3 with a retail price below $500, and the three markets we still can tap best are women, kids, and old folks.

To cater to women we could have case designs which are more appealing than the ugly manly designs of typical PC cases or the sterile colorless designs from Apple.
If cell phones and laptops are any indication, the case design is the main criteria when it comes to picking a device, and is far more important than the actual specs under the hood. Top that with a workbench theme designed by a woman for women and the Amiga would be the most appealing choice for many women, millions of them.

As for kids, I'd make the case look like a friendly cartoon character, turn the workbench into some interactive magic friend which tries to keep the kid entertained and interested, and load the machine with every amiga game possible, some drawing and animation programs. The old Amiga games may look old to us after all these years but most kids would really enjoy them.
Add to that some incentives for the smart ones to learn coding with Hollywood, Rebol, C, or whatever to create games and apps to be made available on some portal with prizes for the most popular ones. A lot of loyalty can be gained if the online services (only available on the Amiga) are stimulating.

A lot of old folks are technophobic and just can't deal with the complexity of Windows and OSX. This is an area where our OS makes it really easy to customize the workbench to keep it simple enough that they don't feel lost. Use some large font, provide a really simple email client, some simple calendar with reminders for bills, birthdays, etc, photo album, some easy way to browse the news, watch movies, print crossword puzzles, and whatever other feature that is of interest to that particular group. For that market I'd envision a touchscreen with the Amiga box hidden behing the monitor and an integral keyboard so that at most two wires are used: power and optionally networking if no wifi is available.

And if one day we do have more coders, yes more coders please! then that day we might be able to bring the Amiga back as the artist's computer too, for those who like to draw, to sculpt, to compose, to perform live, etc, some setup which already includes all the applications one could possibly need to be creative would be an easy sale considering that right now artists are told to either use a business OS or an academic OS and figure out what to install and how to make it work before they can start doing anything creative, and it just seems like the Amiga would be a better match for the artist's mindset. But on that one we have a lot of catching up to do to compete with the tools available on x86 that we're out of luck unless... we have more coders!

Last edited by AlexC on 11-Aug-2011 at 12:40 PM.

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@Birbo

I previously suggested a dog interface for invalids.

The same gadget could be used for security purposes.

A tripped sensor could be relayed to a dog thru a series of high frequency
pulses telling the dog exactly which entrance has been disturbed.

You suggested weather stations and antennas.

The problem I have with trying to suggest an end product is that not everybody
will want the same end product. So starting at the end product and working
backwards toward the Xorro interface may only attract a few people and impose
limits on the versatility of the Xena system and the imagination.

I'm sure for many people with ideas for end results the first question is
going to be 'Yeah, but how do I do that?'.

So perhaps a thread to get opinions on a basic development system might be a
more productive place to start. And Yes, I have been pondering both end product
and development systems since Xena/Xorro/X1000 were announced.

P.S.
This is something @gonegahgah said about software, and I think should apply
equally to the hardware of Xena/Xorro.
Quote:

I think we are probably beyond that stage now where a single 'app' will make that much difference to a system. I think the difference lies more in the 'way that we are enabled to do things' and that this needs to be such a thing that it cries out to be done so that there is a killer need to do it. But, as I said also, if people don't experience it, it still won't achieve anything. It will just be hearsay. So that is part of the problem in itself.

'the way we are enabled to do things' - - - -

@gonegahgah

Quote:

So, to still include your original thought, the X1000 would really need to come up with a killer way of doing something or things; rather than a killer app per se; to compel a broader market to buy it. If we think in that sense we might even be able to come up with some ideas... What things will it be able to do or be able to be made to do that will make it appeal and to who will that appeal be?

Yep, I agree 100% as I said:

Quote:

a totally different way to reach a productiv goal.

and yes this could/must also include the operating system and even hardware. Concluding:

Hyperion/A-Eon/all envolved have to find a way to
- create an "App/program/software" which is new and does things other existing software doesn't
- do the same as above in a niche market (which is an easier goal to reach) AND/OR
- reach existing goals (something which can be done by existing software) in a breaking/innovative way

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@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote: I'd like to know more on RayRacer, which is a Ray tracing real time program demoed in this video at 2mins in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRlzVG5G2Qw

Real Time Raytracing on the PC
http://igad.nhtv.nl/~bikker/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5aXxJGefxU

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