continue with some ideas for low end Amigas

Quote:

Then, also a xorro (with PCIe) card that has AA+ gfx capability. The card (it's FPGA) should be also programmable on the slot/on board. And it should have a lot of headers for all imagineable legacy ports (8joystics etc). It could be used as a DAQ card, FPGA programmer, retro display output, video effects generator, audio tool, the greatest MIDI card etc. But i do not see any successfull business there. It would reguire people that have a lot of money to spend on that hobby. But after a few miracles when Amigas are back in the mainstream ...

+ like similar to insideout (but in simplified form)

For my SAM I would like to buy a PCI (32bit,33Mhz,3.3v) card that has FPGARCADE or NATAMI or MINIMIGAGA or Chameleon FPGA on it. (200€)

- The card should have "chip RAM" (2...8Mb) that can be read from the PPC side of the system and/or copied to the GFX card RAM by DMA.
- usecase1: classic games could be run on the the card while viewed on a window on SAM display.
- The card should have VGA/DVI out and video out on it's backplate
- usecase2: the card should/could handle second display for AOS4 or as the retro output of classic amiga games. (siameseRTG function, siamese info)
- The card should have headers for joystic ports
- usecase3: to be able to use Amiga joysticks on AOS4 and on classic games.
- card could be upgradeable to be able to program the FPGA on the fly by AOS4 SW, (+50€ module)
- usecase4: it could function as a FPGA chip programmer

Quote:

About PCI cards... Rendering, video processing, comiling etc. can be accelerated by using computing clusters. For low end PPC systems it would be "nice" if one could add processors to PCI(e) slots. PCI can handle much higher bandwidth to suffle the work to clusters. It would be nice also if such card could be powered on/off on the fly according to the application one runs, etc. PCI card with POWER7 or i7 might be nice.

+ like http://varisys.co.uk/vs145.html (but in simplified form)
+ like http://www.totalcontrolsolutions.com/single-board-computer/TCS-001-01533 (but in simplified form)
+ ... http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/prototypes/transputer.html
+ ... http://www.amiga-magazin.de/magazin/a03-02/interview_s4/interview_01.jpg
+ ... http://www.sonnettech.com/product/crescendo_7200.html

I think "SAMantha accelerator" card could cost 200€ with 1.5Ghz dualcore processor & some amount of buffer RAM & flash.
usecases:
- accelerate raytracing, mpeg encoding/decoding, compiling etc via cluster nodes
- Perhaps this kind of accelerator could run UAE & DMA the output to AOS4 side.
- Perhaps this kind of accelerator could also run other OS a'la CBM bridgeboards

(and perhaps such accelerator cads could be used also to build full computers around them
large board)

+ the needed SW ofcourse.
(AOS4.2 could be bundled with 68k lightwave & screamernet stuff, etc, etc.)

All unprofitable ideas for/from grazy R&D guys....

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_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

i agree

want one

if sam will come with an xpansion card like this i will buy one for sure

just curious if project Monalisa still alive

Last edited by amitv on 16-Nov-2011 at 01:08 PM.

@KimmoK
I would definitely be interested if someone made something like natami on a board or some other "high end" one.

@Tomas

Count me in

@amitv

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@KimmoK

damn, i'd buy one in a heartbeat.

but i fear all of this is a pipedream ...forever :(

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@KimmoK

Running legacy SW/games on PPC ? Hmmm there is allready something out there that does that just fine, and you don't even have to buy extra HW ....

If there is something wrong with UAE use "your" resources to fix it not to create another underperforming .... hmmm..... brainfart !


Same bout PPC on PCI-card, better use a computer that has a CPU that is not just a rehash of something with less than stellar performace .... in the last millenium !!!

And while your at it make sure it doesn't cost an arm&leg&1stborn&kitchensink.

Your proposed prices are also way of: A Natami-on-PCI would offcourse cost more than a normal Natami (extra development, extra logik for the PCI-interface and an even smaller market) Same for Minimig.

For further questions, refer to signature

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I agree to it but in this same sentence i have to say please first improve E-UAE. RunInUAE is a very good approach to be as close as possible to the original classic.

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@KimmoK

Use case1 : The dedicated Classic Chipset Emulation,
I would more see this as a "feature" of a CyberStormPPC equipped Classic able to run older and newer
versions of the OS across a restart.

Use case2: you want to embed a second system inside the host... QEMU and Similar Virtualization
does not require dedicated hardware in all cases.

Use case3: this is the only use-case where custom hardware may be required and is not needed.

Use case4: FPGA chip programmers are already on the market with other features.

To me ALL the above use cases are part and parcel of the existing sam440 and sam460 designs.

The main issue would be setting up Blitter and other minimal(?) hardware Emulation on the provided
XMOS/FPGA on the motherboard and making those resources available to the Software.

Dedicated Graphics can be done but would require something akin to ShapeShifter from Amiga to VGA
screen conversion using some kind of possibly AKIKO Emulation?

the "Accelerator" itself does not need to run UAE as the FPGA could have a second Chip or board
attached to the 80pin FPGA header (NG clockport?) and with the proper UAE modifications.
run a more AMIthlon style setup.

I have something in mind that may meet some of these use-cases on the existing powerpc hardware
but before I can commit any time to coding or debugging the design further I need to complete
some other project work and finish purchasing a system board or two.

EDIT: my own previous experience in this area would lead me to believe such an accelerator would
be introducing its own problems without being slaved to a host Application in some manner

Last edited by Belxjander on 16-Nov-2011 at 04:32 PM.

@Kronos

Remember that UAE does not run 100% on SAM440 and it does not give access to legacy ports & extra video out etc..., etc...

"A Natami-on-PCI would offcourse cost more than a normal Natami (extra development, extra logik for the PCI-interface and an even smaller market) Same for Minimig."

The PCI card would have a lot less components than Natami or minimig, and IIRC, Natami has PCI bridge already, etc...
And I'm not sure if the market would be smaller for a multipurpose PCI card than a market of a NewClassicAmiga or the market of minimig that requires custom case and legacy add ons etc...

the accelerator card:
"better use a computer that has a CPU that is not just a rehash "

AOS4 does not run on too many CPUs. That's why a MODERN PPC or i7 would be nice to play with on a PCI slot (or perhaps three on SAMFlex, many on classic PCI busboards).

I have always wanted to be able to do everything on one box, on (or via) Amigan friendly AOS. That's why "I" would buy those.

@Belxjander

Use case1 :...
People want/like different things.

Use case2: ...
Here I would used it also as video out (perhaps genlock capable) etc...

Use case3: ...
Some users are not satisfied with serial links (with a lot of latency) to controllers/instruments.
Those headers could be programmed to work also as MIDI ports (recently read how someone was building parallelly working 8 port midi hub, because USB solutions do not work well enough).

Use case4: ...
Yes they are. But I wonder how hard they are to get supported on AOS4, perhaps it's simpler to have our own HW+SW?.

The FPGA on board of SAM440 does not have any developer documentation (some board even miss the I/O extender), so for my need it's useless.

"I have something in mind that may meet some of these use-cases on the existing powerpc hardware
but before I can commit any time to coding or debugging the design further I need to complete
some other project work and finish purchasing a system board or two."

Interesting ! :)

"EDIT: my own previous experience in this area would lead me to believe such an accelerator would
be introducing its own problems without being slaved to a host Application in some manner"

Surely it would have challenges to get it working well.
Before we have seen and used solutions that worked over ethernet, but the bandwidth limitations do not permit things like mpeg4 offloading for videoplayback etc.

I continue using my big box x86 for heavy duty tasks, but I tend to have dreams ... or ? brainfarts?

(btw. I bet we have more affordable AOS4 motherboards with 1.5...2Ghz range long before any PCI accelerator or AA+ emu on PCI card, then also I upgrade from SAM440ep)

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

Other HW that I would be interested in.

RAM card (2GB) for SAM440 PCI slot or for FPGA extension socket. It could be used as AOS4 SWAP partition.


Xcore PCI card with R&D tools & a lot of prototyping area and expansion headers.
(some expansion headers should be compatible with xmos modules)

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

what about the Catweasel MK4plus PCI card?

It supports Amiga Joypads, Mouses, and of course been designed to allows you to run/read amiga floppy disk. Its powered by an FPGA, so does anyone know if the FPGA is good enough to do mini mig core?

The problem is always going to be writing drivers and software to take advantage of the FPGA doing the emulation. I think cost could be kept low, considering Catweasel sell at £90 and the mini mig not that much more, it just the software thats the problem.

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@KimmoK

My own prior work was not with any ethernet or such serialized transfer option...

but a Dual 68040 processor experiment that I was putting together using an A3640 and an extra Ramsey controller out of an A3000...

I ended up burning a stick of ram and possibly damaging the ram controller (untested)...

However I did get a partial SMP library installed and *functional* for some limited capacity dual processor
time running LightWave/3D+ScreamerNet on the same machine without slowing the performance
visibly (the time of rendering for the scene used in the test was approximately 60% the same time
with the screamernet enabled on the same machine compared to the same test with a bare A3640)

an FPGA would be more than capable of being placed into an FPGA but the only question is
How to use it from the host reliably?

The main issue I had with my own "Symmetry" experimentation was trying to sort out how to go beyond
simply protecting the exec.library routines but also in trying to tie any particular task to a given mpu.

And there was also a definite RAM requirement,
(I had only one core structure referenced by the VBR register that was not "shared")

In the "dedicated case" of a single Application dedicated to the 2nd processor it was reasonably
simplistic and able to be done, integrating this properly into the multitasking environment *safely*
was proving to be more of the challenge (triggering interrupt chaining and other logic correctly)

I needed to care which processor was handling each IOrequest as in a few "race conditions" and
deadlock conditions that would kill IO sync very easily (blocking those specific calls was easier)

the main issue I had to deal with was not what each processor was doing individually but when the
time-slicing put both processors into a lockstep condition (I did make a breaker routine for this)
which introduced a micro-delay for keeping the MPUs out of lockstep.

the only real issue would be adapting the ECS or AGA Emulation to run inside the newer Environment
as it would be required to adapt

as for the sam440 and sam460 FPGA presence the SDK *is* available along with the resource
to use it from within the OS... it was released seperately.

I'm just waiting on getting an AOS4.x system to develop on so I can then start producing material.

Maybe there will be something usable in what I make to help with this as well?

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: @Kronos Remember that UAE does not run 100% on SAM440 and it does not give access to legacy ports & extra video out etc..., etc...

Yep fixing the symptons (to slow UAE) while ignoring the the real problem (a CPU that is in principle 15 years old).

Extra video out ? Plug in a 2nd GFX-card, or use the 2nd port on the 1st card. Your setup doesn't support that ? -> fix the setup

100% video-compability might have made sense in 199x, but these days noone (in his right mind) is doing analog linear lowres video work.

Same bout the legacy port, buy a bunch of USB-adaptors and be done with it.

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@Kronos

You talk about buy and fix, but you have to admit that a ready made extra card that solve all this issue would be very nice.

Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 17-Nov-2011 at 11:44 AM.

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retired

@AmigaBlitter

What would be "nice" about it ???

Stuff like that might have had a point 10-15 years ago, but today ?

If I was given such a thing for free I would place in the cupboard or more likely bin it.

Stupid idea remains stupid idea no matter how often it gets repeated.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@Belxjander
I was not aware that also SAM440 FPGA resource is released. Last time I checked it was not supported. Need to look at it oneday...

@Kronos

>Same bout the legacy port, buy a bunch of USB-adaptors and be done with it.

It most likely wont work well enough. (otherwise people would not be developing things like new midi adapters) Already to get USB2 to AOS4 took almost 10 years. (in the meanwhile the community has produced a lot of HW with SW)
To me it seems there are possibilities for better than USB solutions.

"What would be "nice" about it"
For me, things like: To get everything working in a single box without huge cable mess etc.

Actually, during recent days, I have become more and more a fan of the "programmable silicon". I hope Varisys delivers the next X system sooner than later, on a lower price than x1000 (like SAM460 with 99% of the current I/O replaced by xcore).

Last edited by KimmoK on 17-Nov-2011 at 12:17 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 17-Nov-2011 at 12:13 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: Already to get USB2 to AOS4 took almost 10 years.

Yep, due to wrong use of limited resources !

_________________
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- blame Canada

@Kronos

we might agree that Hyperion should have licenced poseidon almost a decade ago?

UPDATE:
Interesting board for clustering: http://www.advantech.com/products/PCI-7030/mod_75CA9DC6-4D8F-4138-A56E-DCFA825FAD2E.aspx

Last edited by KimmoK on 05-Dec-2011 at 12:55 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@amitv

Quote:

just curious if project Monalisa still alive

Seems someone is still working on it. As a recap:

On the AmigaNews.it website some Users are working on a PCI Express Accelerator Card for the SAM460ex codenamed "Project Monlisa".

Details so far:

- 1Gb of on-board memory
- 3 co-processors
- 2 powerful processors
- Integrated A/V in & out

Seems work began 3 years ago, as it was planned for the 440 originally.

Users there are making analogies and references to the SpursEngine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpursEngine
http://www.powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1516
http://www.leadtek.com/spursengine/

Source: http://goo.gl/sGM15