Quote:

pavlor wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Right, but the Amiga platform itself died. Too much talk about "dead" platform. I think it is rather un-dead.

May be it'll revive...
Quote:

Quote: but not about a complete machine, which is what Amiga was in the past. You favourite computer - X1000 - is complete machine.

It isn't complete neither an Amiga. On the contrary, I find it quite the opposite to the Amiga.

Amiga 1000 (but almost all applies to other Amiga models as well):
- totally new motherboard;
- totally new case (and keyboard);
- award winning CPU with very good performance;
- totally new custom-made chipset;
- the custom hardware has no discrete components that can be bought in the market;
- totally new coprocessors (Copper, Blitter);
- coprocessors can offload some task from the CPU and can do their job MUCH better than the latter;
- totally new operating system (Kickstart + Workbench + AmigaDOS: there was no AmigaOS, and people thought that the Workbench was the one);
- the o.s. was designed for the hardware, and let to use ALL specific features (Defender of the Crown and Marble Madness are o.s.-friendly games that used sprites, Copper, Blitter, and audio, if I remember correctly);
- everything is fully usable from day one;

AmigaOne X1000:
- adapted motherboard;
- adapted case (with stickers for the keyboard);
- the CPU is comparable, if not even below, a very old PowerPC G4;
- existing chipset;
- the hardware has discrete components that can be bought in the market;
- no new coprocessors: the XCore is a discrete component already available;
- the XCore is a poor component that is almost useless, unless as a microcontroller (something that the average Joe is not interested in). It's 30MB/s, high latency, "local bus" is its biggest Achilles' Heel: a 500+ MIPS component that cannot even emulate a Commodore 64;
- Linux, an existing operating system, was the first one that ran on it;
- AmigaOS 4 was adapted, not designed, for it, and cannot even use regular, so not custom/specific, features (the second core, the graphic card resources, the audio, and even the ethernet if I remember correctly);
- only a few things are usable from day one.

How can you compare it to a glorious Amiga? Looking at it, you call it an anti-Amiga.

It's my opinion, of course, and may be this isn't the best place to talk about it, but I think that facts matters...

@cdimauro

Interesting comparison - but plain wrong in some aspects. Your homework: find your wrong assumptions.

_________________
X1000|II/G4|440ep|2000/060|2000/040|1000

Quote:

Massi wrote: @cdimauro So why you waste your time writing articles about a dead system???

Because I have something to say about. Also, my articles have a lot of audience: they are much appreciated.
Quote:

Move to another subject then!!!

For your pleasure?

Why I can talk about PowerPCs, when I already have made the same with 6502, Z80, 6800, 68000/10/20/30/40/60, x86, ARMs, etc.?
Quote:

Do not bite the hand where you eat!

Bite? Are you serious? I don't have to pay a tax to anybody for what I write. I'm a free editor.
Quote:

Massi wrote: @cdimauro It is clear that you don' t know much about AmigaOS 4.x both hardware and software sides,

Correct me, guy, IF I make mistakes about them.
Quote:

so you better stay silent and respect it!

Again: just for your pleasure.
Quote:

Our community doesn' t need bullshit!

And now some offending words. It's quite evident that you're talking as a taliban.
Quote:

Full stop.

I agree. Please, if YOU don't like what I say, don't read it. Think about your health.

Quote:

cha05e90 wrote: @cdimauro Interesting comparison - but plain wrong in some aspects. Your homework: find your wrong assumptions.

It's too much easy saying something and never disclose details: everybody can do it.

If you think I was wrong, please correct me.

@cdimauro

Quote:

AmigaOne X1000:

Quote:

- adapted motherboard;

Source?

Quote:

- adapted case (with stickers for the keyboard);

There are no stickers for keyboard (you mean stickers sold with A1-500?).

Quote:

the CPU is comparable, if not even below, a very old PowerPC G4;

PA6T 1.8 GHz is comparable to G4 1.5 GHz in single core performance in most tasks, but has superior memory throughput and FFT performance. And of course offers two cores and rich expansion possibilities. It is unique CPU for unique computer.

Quote:

- existing chipset;

Why reinvent the wheel?

Quote:

- the hardware has discrete components that can be bought in the market;

Even A1000 had discrete components that can be bought in the market!

Quote:

- Linux, an existing operating system, was the first one that ran on it;

AmigaOS on Lorraine was in similar position.

Quote:

- AmigaOS 4 was adapted, not designed, for it, and cannot even use regular, so not custom/specific, features (the second core, the graphic card resources, the audio, and even the ethernet if I remember correctly);

With this logic, support for Radeon HD cards and multiple cores would be impossible. Glad A-Eon put these "unusable" features on its motherboard.

Quote:

How can you compare it to a glorious Amiga? Looking at it, you call it an anti-Amiga.

Dedicated, Amiga branded hardware designed to run AmigaOS... if that is not enough for you...

Quote:

It's my opinion, of course, and may be this isn't the best place to talk about it, but I think that facts matters...

Here I fully agree! There were many attempts to bring "new Amiga" to the end users (eg. most recent Natami). The fact is, where many failed, A-Eon succeeded.

Quote:

Seiya wrote: @cdimauro Quote: EP4CE30F23C6N 30K LE, 328 I/O BGA, 500Mhz, €50,89 from alterashop you have to buy 60 minimun pieces at 59,87 USD for a tolal or 3,592 USD.. http://www.buyaltera.com/scripts/partsearch.dll?Detail&name=EP4CE30F23C6N-ND here you can see that minimun order is 60 http://www.buyaltera.com/scripts/partsearch.dll

Take a look at this: http://it.farnell.com/altera/ep4ce30f23c8n/fpga-cyclone-iv-30k-484fbga/dp/2100838

It's just an example.

P.S. If you want to further discuss about TiNA, please subscribe to its forum. Thanks.

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: Disassemble programs has turned messy, my experience whit it is that IRA disassembler is great at generating code, but horrible to understand that text is not Assembly code.

I remember Resource (or Resourcer?) for Amiga, which was a wonderful intelligent disassembler.

@pavlor

Yip, I will never understand the problem people have with the new models of Amigas

Whether the Amiga continued to evolve from the point of back in the day or someone finally breaking through and offering something, the Amiga was always going to evolve.

What has happened to the community is people broke off to support other renditions (which is fine BUT they should have just LEFT the Amiga behind and that means EVERYTHING) and then there is the other faction of die hards who decided to keep there older Amiga models and frown at anything else which came along after (which is again fine but they should keep there opinions of what a real Amiga is to themselves - because there journey has ended and so they should keep there tunnel vision and harmful jibberish for there own self induced circles of acceptance)

I've always used an Amiga from day dot and was very pleased when I could move from the PPC A4000 to a SAM or two and then finally to a couple of X1000s

And guess what, I am not finished and I don't think Trevor is either... Onwards and Upwards, it's what makes computing with the Amiga Fun

And hey, I absolutely LOVE buying new hardware... Woha, who needs xmas

_________________
~Yes I am a Kiwi, No, I did not appear as an extra in 'Lord of the Rings'~
1x AmigaOne X5000 2.0GHz 2gM RadeonR9280X AOS4.x
3x AmigaOne X1000 1.8GHz 2gM RadeonHD7970 AOS4.x

@Slayer

Quote:

And hey, I absolutely LOVE buying new hardware... Woha, who needs xmas

I share your passion! However, it is a little bit harder with income of government emloyee here in the Czech Republic.

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @cdimauro Quote: AmigaOne X1000: Quote: [quote]- adapted motherboard; Source?

No source. Varisys already built motherboards for P.A. Semi CPUs, so I don't think that they reinvented the wheel, but just adapted it for the X1000. Also, usually such companies take the reference boards and change them to accommodate their needs.
Quote:

Quote: - adapted case (with stickers for the keyboard); There are no stickers for keyboard (you mean stickers sold with A1-500?).

I was referring to the "Amiga" keys, with the boing balls.
Quote:

Quote: the CPU is comparable, if not even below, a very old PowerPC G4; PA6T 1.8 GHz is comparable to G4 1.5 GHz in single core performance in most tasks,

OK
Quote:

but has superior memory throughput and FFT performance.

Even the G4 showed superior performance on some tasks.

Both processors have their strong points, but on average the PA6T is comparable to a very old CPU, as I said.
Quote:

And of course offers two cores

There are dual core G4s, as well.
Quote:

and rich expansion possibilities.

Right.
Quote:

It is unique CPU for unique computer.

Not unique, since it has been used by other companies (and military guys).

The computer is unique, OK.
Quote:

Quote: - existing chipset; Why reinvent the wheel?

Jay Miner did it.
Quote:

Quote: - the hardware has discrete components that can be bought in the market; Even A1000 had discrete components that can be bought in the market!

I was referring to the custom hardware: Agnus, Denise, and Paula.
Quote:

Quote: - Linux, an existing operating system, was the first one that ran on it; AmigaOS on Lorraine was in similar position.

It was running on a Sun, through a simulator, if I remember correctly. Which is quite a different situation.
Quote:

Quote: - AmigaOS 4 was adapted, not designed, for it, and cannot even use regular, so not custom/specific, features (the second core, the graphic card resources, the audio, and even the ethernet if I remember correctly); With this logic, support for Radeon HD cards and multiple cores would be impossible. Glad A-Eon put these "unusable" features on its motherboard.

The point is that Amiga already came with brand new and good things that were immediately usable both by the o.s. and applications.

The X1000 was sold using already existing, discrete components, that are not usable even after so much long time.
Quote:

Quote: How can you compare it to a glorious Amiga? Looking at it, you call it an anti-Amiga. Dedicated, Amiga branded hardware designed to run AmigaOS... if that is not enough for you...

Not for me, because it's an AmigaOne, not an Amiga.

The most important thing is the the X1000 has nothing in common with the original Amigas, as clearly came out from the comparison.

But if you just look at brands and labels... OK.
Quote:

Quote: It's my opinion, of course, and may be this isn't the best place to talk about it, but I think that facts matters... Here I fully agree! There were many attempts to bring "new Amiga" to the end users (eg. most recent Natami). The fact is, where many failed, A-Eon succeeded.

Commodore USA sold Amigas computers, and there are some Android tablets with the Amiga brand applied over.

Taking you words, they are Amigas, and they succeeded too.

@cdimauro

Quote:

The most important thing is the the X1000 has nothing in common with the original Amigas, as clearly came out from the comparison.

AmigaOS?

Quote:

Commodore USA sold Amigas computers

And hopefuly will sell again (situation of this company is uncerain at this time).

Quote:

and there are some Android tablets with the Amiga brand applied over.

Sadly, not anymore.

Quote:

Taking you words, they are Amigas, and they succeeded too.

I fear even over-priced and under-powered X1000 has greater user base than these Amigas combined.


It is clear our opinions are irreconsilable. Hope your way (TiNa) will be at least as successful as the X1000.

@cdimauro

Quote:

No source. Varisys already built motherboards for P.A. Semi CPUs, so I don't think that they reinvented the wheel, but just adapted it for the X1000. Also, usually such companies take the reference boards and change them to accommodate their needs.

I usually stay away from threads like this, unless misinformation is being spread.

I can categorically state that the Nemo motherboard was specified and designed from the ground up to run AmigOS 4 . It was not a reference board or re-design of any other board or system that Varisys had built before.

Thanks

TrevorD

_________________
No, I don't need no reason, I'm just breezin'

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @cdimauro Quote: The most important thing is the the X1000 has nothing in common with the original Amigas, as clearly came out from the comparison. AmigaOS?

Gotcha.
Quote:

I fear even over-priced and under-powered X1000 has greater user base than these Amigas combined. It is clear our opinions are irreconsilable. Hope your way (TiNa) will be at least as successful as the X1000.

I think that there's a market for anyone. If TiNA succeeds, even an AmigaOS 4 port can be feasible.

Quote:

TrevorDick wrote: @cdimauro Quote: No source. Varisys already built motherboards for P.A. Semi CPUs, so I don't think that they reinvented the wheel, but just adapted it for the X1000. Also, usually such companies take the reference boards and change them to accommodate their needs. I usually stay away from threads like this, unless misinformation is being spread. I can categorically state that the Nemo motherboard was specified and designed from the ground up to run AmigOS 4 . It was not a reference board or re-design of any other board or system that Varisys had built before. Thanks TrevorD

I haven't schematics/layouts of Varisys motherboards, Nemo, and P.A. Semi reference boards, neither the competence to show how they can look similar, so I take your words for true.

One point for the X1000.

@cdimauro

Quote:

Varisys already built motherboards for P.A. Semi CPUs, so I don't think that they reinvented the wheel, but just adapted it for the X1000. Also, usually such companies take the reference boards and change them to accommodate their needs.

+1, exactly what i was saying. exactly what a sane company (varisys) would likely do. exactly what a company would have been chosen upon by a sane contractee (trevor :D). and exactly what a sane observer would deduct about the deal.

Quote:

I was referring to the "Amiga" keys, with the boing balls.

no offence to acube, aeon or amigakit, but the provided "branded" keyboards and mice have nothing to do with amiga and are "quick and dirty" adopted regular pc devices. original amiga at its tome had establish many (partly superior) standards to suit its concept. even floppy was different from the regular pc one (bigger capacity) even if it was possible to make it read pc and mac format for convinience. the other obvious thing is keyboard layout appropriate for system functions. if you take a pc keyboard, remap some keys and put stickers on them while leaving others without function, you cant tell me such a device is designed for amiga. its only a workaroud as the whole system.

Quote:

But if you just look at brands and labels... OK.

actually not even that. amiga os label has been introduced somewhere in the nineties (i think with 3.1 upgrade, but i might be wrong). amiga was recognized for its operating system, but whatever it was called, workbench, amiga dos, it was not a label.

Quote:

There were many attempts to bring "new Amiga" to the end users (eg. most recent Natami). The fact is, where many failed, A-Eon succeeded.

they failed because they were too ambitious in comparison with os4 hardware. natami had a clear target to reproduce amiga and build upon its philosophy. all that without any funding. it was likely doomed to die from the start as one guy has taken up an engineering work of whole teams.

im not trying to discredit work put into efika, pegasos, sam, teron a1, the mysterious netbook or x1k, but all those boards must have been based upon close reference designs and assembled by proper companies. on the contrary minimig, natami, fpga arcade (has not failed yet) are private, mostly one man projects, labours of personal dedication. if trevor (or someone else) had backed up any such attempt with the amount of money that has been invested into x1k, they would have succeed by a large margin, hell we might have been close to have custom dual core 2ghz 68k asic cpu today. lol.

@cdimauro

Well X1000 is standard motherboard more or less, its designed to run AmigaOS 4, not AmigaOS 3 and so there is gap between support for legacy software.

Many have tried to make new modern classic Amiga but have failed, the BoXeR project, NatAmi, AmiJoe.

Well the NatAMI might come one day, whit different name and not as mind blowing as it first was hyped to become, the problem is if your going to design chips you really need to know what your doing its time consuming, expensive effort that you probably wont get your investment back on.

It might be that it is easier to piggy back and do classic hardware upgrades like new Paula sound card for zorro slot, or SuperAGA for PCI, I think you know perfectly well way no one has done it, it is simply because classic software uses fixed address to access sound card and graphics and timers.

The problem is not AmigaONE X1000 hardware, it is software that was not designed to work on anything else then a classic Amiga whit OCS chipsets and 0.5Mb of chip ram.

Once people started adding fast RAM program failed due fact that sound and graphic need to be in chip memory.

CHIP memory was the memory all the CUSTUM chips sheered and did have access to, and so CHIP memory was slow, but nescessary for Amiga to work as it did.

While CIAA.resource and CIAB.resource provided some abstraction from CUSTUM addresses it only provided a way for developers to reserver the hardware timers buy using a API and setting up interrupt vectors, developers often did not use it set the registers.

Audio.device was never ever used, and AHI was unpopular for classic Amiga computers whit out upgraded soundcard like prelude, because you need tune it and 14bit audio was never as good as 16bit sounds on PC's.

Developers used to hardcoded if there game was PAL or NTSC.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Jan-2013 at 12:02 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Jan-2013 at 11:59 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Jan-2013 at 11:53 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Jan-2013 at 11:51 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Jan-2013 at 11:50 AM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

@wawa

Quote:

they failed because they were too ambitious in comparison with os4 hardware.

X1000 nad Natami were two most ambitious and most anticipated projects of recent Amiga history. I still hope some Natami successor appears.

Quote:

im not trying to discredit work put into efika, pegasos, sam, teron a1, the mysterious netbook or x1k, but all those boards must have been based upon close reference designs and assembled by proper companies.

Quote:

on the contrary minimig, natami, fpga arcade (has not failed yet) are private, mostly one man projects, labours of personal dedication.

If Natami-similar projects could use cheap and available SoC and common hardware components like current OS4 hardware, their goal would be easier to reach. Too much demands with so few resources: everyone wants full AGA compatibility and better than 68060 CPU and high reolution GFX etc..

Look at FPGA Arcade board with nearly same price as SAM440ep-flex even without 68060 card. I dont´t think TiNA will be much cheaper.

Quote:

if trevor (or someone else) had backed up any such attempt with the amount of money that has been invested into x1k, they would have succeed by a large margin, hell we might have been close to have custom dual core 2ghz 68k asic cpu today. lol.

Super Natami with price and performance of X1000? Tempting.

@cdimauro


Quote:

Take a look at this: http://it.farnell.com/altera/ep4ce30f23c8n/fpga-cyclone-iv-30k-484fbga/dp/2100838

i saw yet, but they don't have in catalog 500 mhz version.

and no, i don't need to subscribe to tina project. i already said all i want to say

_________________