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/  Forum Index
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      /  Productivity Amiga Emulation
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Poll : Are you interested in productivity Amiga emulation?
Yessss, this is what I've been waiting for!
I would give it a try if it was for free.
Existing emulators are good enough for my purposes.
No thanks, I am only interested in hardware.
Get a life, man!
 
PosterThread
Wanderer 
Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 8-Jul-2015 19:02:56
#1 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Aug-2008
Posts: 654
From: Germany

Disclaimer: this post is purely exploratory, I haven't coded or planned anything.

I would like to get some sense of how strong the interest in the community is for "productivity" emulation. In contrast to retro gaming, which is perfectly covered by the various UAE flavors, productivity emulation is quite neglected after Amithlon died.

Amithlon was great, but its selling point of running directly on the hardware with minimal Linux kernel was also the biggest problem - for various reasons:
- drivers, drivers, drivers (does not work on modern HW anymore)
- won't run simultaneously (unless you use a VM which introduces another layer of potential failure)
- hard drive installation was a pain

(Win/FS)UAE is great and very compatible, but it is not ideal if you aim for a high end productivity Amiga:
- chipset emu keeps the host CPU busy (=> battery drain)
- i/o goes through 68K and is laggy (RTG, mouse, files etc.)
- over-complicated due to feature/config overkill (see WinUAE's configuration dialog)
- overall performance/ergonomics is not ideal
- CPU speed only reasonable under WinUAE/Windows

Here is what I propose:

Amileon
Unlike Amithlon, let the host OS do the dirty work, and focus on functionality and ergonomics rather than re-implementing drivers, TCP/IP, USB etc. Like UAE, it is a single executable that runs on your host OS. Therefore it is easy to try/install/maintain/de-install ("run from USB stick"). It emulates a generic 680xx CPU with virtual graphics card, sound card and input device. It does not emulate the classic Amiga hardware. It won't have chipset support at all. In return you get faster 68K emulation and native-performance graphics, input devices, file i/o, audio etc.
Don't think of it as a hardware emulator, more a cross-compiler for 68K code mapping i/o to the host. There won't be the need for low-level hardware access, since the host will provide all of these things.



Goals
- run AmigaOS 3.9 and most system conform applications
- fastest possible CPU Emulation with JIT for supported architectures
- emulator side replacement of library functions for
  o RTG 2D graphics
  o AHI audio
  o file system (dos.library)
  o MIDI (camd.library)
  o mouse/keyboard etc. (input.device)
  o Networking (bsdsocket.library)
  o Timer (timer.device)
- multi core support for i/o
- host CPU idle if emulation is idle
- native latency/refresh for mouse, graphics, audio, file i/o etc.

Stretch-Goals
- compositing window manager
- seamless host desktop integration (Amiga windows open on host desktop, run each application in separate sandbox for memory protection)
- PPC emulation (AmigaOS 4?)
- multi core support for Amiga processes
- 3D graphics support

Non-Goals
- run AmigaOS 1.x/2.x and chipset dependent software
- planar graphics support
- chipset emulation (Paula, Blitter, CIA etc.)
- specific CPU setup (generic 680xx only)
- support for Amiga-side file systems / disk images (no low-level device access)

As a fallback, it can use a widely ported API to abstract from the actual OS such as SDL and an interpreted CPU emu. This way it can be ported quickly to various platforms and then optimized. As things are kept simple, optimizing should be relatively easy (e.g. no low-level emulation of periphery hardware).
Forbidding low level i/o might even make multi core support possible on Amiga side. Even if not, all i/o (most importantly graphics and file) can be run in a separate command-queue thread allowing other Amiga processes to run simultaneously (like DMA for all i/o).
This would be like Amithlon, but without the driver hazzle, and with running in parallel. Most architectures are multi core nowadays, so the host OS will not make the emulation stuttering as it was 5-10 years ago.

Discuss!

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Minuous 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 8-Jul-2015 20:54:43
#2 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Oct-2004
Posts: 319
From: Unknown

Probably the quickest way of producing something like this would be to make a stripped-down version of WinUAE, with eg. custom chip emulation omitted.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 8-Jul-2015 20:55:07
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Wanderer

Improvements on WinUAE is a lot more useful to me,
As cross development environment, possibly as please to test compatibility different setups.

The products you describe here already exist different variations.
http://www.amigaforever.com/kxlight/

It was tried before, with XAmiga (project no longer exist)
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=33024

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Jul-2015 at 09:03 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Jul-2015 at 08:55 PM.

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 8-Jul-2015 21:24:12
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1770
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga
If you replace aros in aminux with amigaos you are done.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=40236&forum=47

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 08-Jul-2015 at 09:26 PM.

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Wanderer 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 8-Jul-2015 22:49:16
#5 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Aug-2008
Posts: 654
From: Germany

@Minuous

Stripping down any UAE version is not the goal.

The main difference is that it should not emulate the hardware rather the AmigaOS API, whenever it does i/o. This way it can take advantage of multiple cores and gain native speed / latency for mouse, graphics, audio, file access and such.
It could even "borrow" the text rendering from the host OS for graphics/text(), which is ridiculously faster than the 68K font rendering.

@NutsAboutAmiga

This is not an attempt to run UAE on an invisible Linux. In contrary, it should run on your favorite OS, which you need for everyday stuff if you are honest. E.g. I don't want to reboot my PC after I typed this in Chrome to check my emails with YAM, paint in ArtEffect or music in HD-Rec. if you want to be productive, you want to have both at the same time. E.g. the image above I cropped and balanced with ArtEffect, and then uploaded with some Windows software.

Too summarize: Amithlon feeling with the comfort of WinUAE.

Last edited by Wanderer on 08-Jul-2015 at 10:52 PM.

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Trekiej 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 9-Jul-2015 3:39:31
#6 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 17-Oct-2006
Posts: 890
From: Unknown

@Wanderer

Like Wine but for Amiga apps?

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Wanderer 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 9-Jul-2015 8:14:58
#7 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Aug-2008
Posts: 654
From: Germany

@Trekiej

Not quite. It is still an emulator for 68K and some essential hardware registers, in case they get banged. But on such a low accuracy that they don't cost CPU cycles if not used. Ideally, applications use only the OS API, which can be partly replaced (only i/o functions, time critical functions optionally). e.g. dos/Open(), Write(), Close() would directly replaced by the host OS functions, with a little glue code that satisfied the 68K side, e.g. filling out the file handle struct.

Edit: Actually it would not directly replaced, it would use the command queue as mentioned above. This way it does not block the 68K thread. (Never block the main thread™ !).

Very roughly like this:

Quote:

___________________________________________ 68K code
// replacement for dos.library/Open()

LONG Open(cont char* name, int access) {
  LONG ticket = Emulator.CommandQueue.Append(DOS_OPEN, name, access);
  Wait(Emulator.SigFlag);
  return Emulator.CommandQueue.GetResult(ticket);
}
____________________________________________ Emulator
Ticket* CommandQueue::Append(int Id, ...) {
  Ticket* ticket = new Ticket();
  CommandList.Append(Id, ticket, ...);
  return ticket;
}

void CommandQueue::Process() {
  Command* cmd = CommandList.pop();

  switch(cmd->Id) {
  case DOS_OPEN:
    FILE* fp = fopen(name, accessmode);
    cmd->Ticket->Result = (int32_t)fp;
    _68K::Signal(Emulator.Sigflag);
  }
}

int32_t GetResult(Ticket* ticket) {
  int32_t result = ticket->Result;
  delete ticket;
  return result;
}

Last edited by Wanderer on 09-Jul-2015 at 10:16 AM.
Last edited by Wanderer on 09-Jul-2015 at 09:51 AM.
Last edited by Wanderer on 09-Jul-2015 at 09:47 AM.
Last edited by Wanderer on 09-Jul-2015 at 09:46 AM.

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blizz1220 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 9-Jul-2015 9:09:34
#8 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@Wanderer

I wonder how much software would be able to run on that kind
of project and even at what speed (some things that were made
for CPUs faster than 060 have a tendency to run too fast even on
WinUAE with RTG emulation).

Only application I can see is AROS 68k.It would be nice thing to have
but one strong point in Amithlon I saw was that it allowed software
compatibility at the time while the rest of NG solutions only offered
limited compatibility which might have contributed to downfall of
user base.I also wonder how "system friendly" are most of old
Amiga productivity applications and games.

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KimmoK 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 9-Jul-2015 9:30:09
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

I'm personally more interested in NG stuff than new classic emulator.

So, for me, perhaps superb fast Pegasos2 emulator would be more interesting, to run NG SW + UAE on x86 laptop & tablet.

Last edited by KimmoK on 09-Jul-2015 at 09:32 AM.

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Wanderer 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 9-Jul-2015 10:05:59
#10 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Aug-2008
Posts: 654
From: Germany

@blizz1220

That would be on the compatibility level comparable to Amithlon or OS4. Amithlon did not emulate Paula audio or planar graphics. But you would not recompile software. It runs 68K code.

Speed is never fast enough for productivity, this is why I say "productivity" Emulator. The goal is not to run A500 games. UAE does a great job in that, nobody needs another UAE. You could even think about running Amiga UAE under this emu if you want games back. CPU powerwould be more than enough.

But UAE has many flaws and performance bottlenecks when it comes to productivty emulation. E.g. Amithlon feels much faster on my 1.3GHz AMD single core than WinUAE on a 10 years more modern 2.6GHz i7 Quad Core. The reason is not the raw CPU speed obviously, which is faster on WinUAE, it is the laggyness introduced by the emulation layer. I.e. compare the Windows mouse pointer to the emulated WinUAE 68K mouse pointer. It does not have to be that laggy if the emulation would directly support the AmigaOS API where it makes sense. I don't mean to replace the whole API, that brings too much hazzle with the endianess and is a lot of work. Only where it is needed to gain speed / reduce latency and avoid hardware hits, which is mainly any kind of i/o.
If you spin this further, you could replace AllocMem with host memory allocation, removing the address composing so a memory access under 68K is direct.

Last edited by Wanderer on 09-Jul-2015 at 10:10 AM.

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Wanderer 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 9-Jul-2015 10:10:54
#11 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Aug-2008
Posts: 654
From: Germany

@KimmoK

If this works for 68K, PPC would be the next logic step.

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thellier 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 9-Jul-2015 11:43:54
#12 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 263
From: Paris

@Wanderer

With WinUAE you can already
Disable sprite collision
Disable Sound emulation
Use OCS Chipset (simpler so I suppose easier to emulate) [But I agree a "no chipset" option would have sense)
Then use RTG (uaegfx driver) + JIT + Wazp3D (hardware rendering via opengl32.dll) + UAE driver for hard disks + I think there is also an AHI driver out of there ==> looks like what amithlon "drivers" did, no?

Also I dont see " the laggyness introduced by the emulation layer" when the chipset (copper&blitter) are not used at all because OS and apps are RTG

Alain Thellier

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Wanderer 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 9-Jul-2015 13:22:17
#13 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Aug-2008
Posts: 654
From: Germany

@thellier

Yes, WinUAE can disable some CPU hogs, but this is not the same.

Here are some brainstormed flaws. Some of them can be fixed of course, but some not due to the design of the emulation. And many things only work under WinUAE, so if you want to use MacOS, Linux or Android you don't get a good experience out of it.

Graphics:
- graphics are ok with RTG support but still considerably slower than host, especially font rendering
- no compositing or seamless desktop integration

HID:
- emulated mouse is laggy compared to naive mouse (has improved over time, but still)
- emulated mouse has different acceleration and DPI settings than host mouse, means you have to always adjust your muscle memory.
- emulated mouse does not support all kinds of HID, e.g. tablets with absolute positioning is a pain to get running
- keyboard uses Amiga settings and ignores host settings

Audio:
- AHI 16bit sound only under WinUAE (? not sure if still true)
- AHI introduces unnecessary latency
- AHI driver supports only 16bit stereo

File I/O
- considerably slower than host file system especially on lots of small files, sometimes it lets the emu stutter or hang for a while
- "visibility" of files is inconsistent if you flip between host and emu a lot

Clock/timer:
- somehow, clock is always wrong and timers inaccurate
- VBlank does not sync reliably (=> bad for RTG games, tearing)

CPU:
- still sucks 1-3% out of my host CPU if Amiga is idle.
This has a noticeable impact on my laptop battery and CPU heat, as this does not seem to be linear with the core usage.
This is with disabled Audio, Sprite Collision and "Idle" slider to maximum, which degrades noticeably the emulator responsiveness.
- JIT emulation can be probably done faster on newer machines. Without knowing the details, using direct memory and not sandboxed might give quite a boost.
- JIT is kind of broken under FS-UAE in RTG mode.

Last edited by Wanderer on 09-Jul-2015 at 01:28 PM.
Last edited by Wanderer on 09-Jul-2015 at 01:25 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 9-Jul-2015 14:40:28
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Wanderer

Interesting idea!


I see only one problem: resources/developers for such big task.
Who is able and willing to do that hard work? For how much?

Another important question: what is target user base? Most WinUAE (RTG) users are satisfied by emulator´s performance (I wouldn´t call UAEGFX slow...), OS4 and MorphOS users have their own hardware, AROS works natively on x86. Maybe Olaf, wawa and co. (68k AROS) would support your project, but their skills/resources are certainly limited.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 9-Jul-2015 16:11:08
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Wanderer

This is what I like to see being worked on for EUAE.
BSDSocket emulation, so it works on AmigaOS4.1
keyboard emulation, I find it annoying, And I like to see composition used on EUAE window so it can be rescaled, And to upscale graphics, software scaling is slow.

I do not need OS3.1 improvements; I only use OS3.1 for old programs that is somewhat badly coded.

Quote:
// replacement for dos.library/Open()


is not better to write a UAE file handler instead, as its less of a hack.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-Jul-2015 at 04:18 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-Jul-2015 at 04:15 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-Jul-2015 at 04:12 PM.

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cgutjahr 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 9-Jul-2015 16:36:43
#16 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@Wanderer

me thinks you have too many project ideas in your head, and not enough time

If you're talking "productivity emulation", I would get rid of the requirement to "run AmigaOS 3.9" and stretch goals like "compositing window manager".

I'd go for a 68k emulator that can open shared libraries, plus as many APIs emulated as possible. vamos would be a very good starting point, it already runs CLI applications on Mac OS and Linux:

http://lallafa.de/blog/amiga-projects/amitools/vamos/

Add Gadtools and MUI/Zune plus an intuition/graphics compatible API and you're in productivity heaven.

- no driver issues
- no emulation overhead
- (mostly) seamless integration with your native desktop environment

3.9 is not very "productive". It looks old, feels old, doesn't integrate with the rest of my desktop environment and isn't legally available anywhere.

What kind of applications do you have in mind, anyway? I can think of virus checkers (which don't work with vamos yet, unfortunately), and you're probably thinking of AmiBlitz - though in the latter case, it would probably easier to separate the compiler from TED and run it using vamos.

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cdimauro 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 9-Jul-2015 17:24:52
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@cgutjahr: I agree with you. Vamos is exactly what's (conceptually) needed, however it lacks A LOT of stuff, plus a good JIT integrated.

If you consider that the wrapper part is written in Python, well, it shows how much time is needed for this kind of projects.

BTW, Vamos runs on Windows also.


@Wanderer: see above.

Just one little point more. The chipset emulation can be moved to a specific core, in order to let the CPU one run at full speed on another one. However the problem is that this draws a lot of power, since AFAIK it's not possible to tell the CPU: "sleep for exactly XYZ clock cycles".
The chipset emulation doesn't require a lot of computing power if only some parts are enabled (e.g.: the two CIAs), however it's not possible to sleep the CPU and you have to do a poll-wait.

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Wanderer 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 9-Jul-2015 19:52:50
#18 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Aug-2008
Posts: 654
From: Germany

@pavlor

I don't know. At the moment I am just thinking out loud. Right now I don't have much time, but this can change in the future.

The target user base would be everybody who uses nowadays WinUAE with RTG for more than enjoying a 24bit workbench wallpaper. It would be a similar thing, just smaller, faster and more responsive, and if possible with some cool novel features "traditional" emulation would have a hard time to provide, like host desktop integration.

If a PPC emu would be added, it would become interesting for OS4 and maybe MorphOS users. Why you may ask, they have their hardware. That's why I posted this photo. Can you have OS4 on a laptop, tablet, phablet? Is 3D performance up to date? How is the soundcard, USB devices etc.? How long does your hardware live? When is point even when the emu becomes faster?

AROS could be useful to get educated about the OS functions. Actually I should checkout AROS more often. Unfortunately last time it was not useful yet.

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Wanderer 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 9-Jul-2015 20:02:34
#19 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Aug-2008
Posts: 654
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga

It is not about OS3.1 improvements. Its about emulating an environment where OS3.x software can run as fast and responsive as possible. Therefore the emulation should lift an abstraction layer up:

traditional Emu:

Mouse -> Host HW -> Host Event -> Emu -> Virtual HW -> Emu Event

I propose

Mouse -> Host HW -> Host Event -> Emu -> Emu Event

So the step of converting the host event to a virtual hardware representations (some bits in registers) and converting them back is not needed. This has more advantages than just the computational overhead: reinterpreting the registers needs a "driver" on the Amiga side. Checkout what happens if you connect a graphics tablet to your PC. We can assume that on the host the drivers are perfect adjusted. Or keyboard settings etc. No need to reinterpret on the Amiga side.

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Wanderer 
Re: Productivity Amiga Emulation
Posted on 9-Jul-2015 20:12:36
#20 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Aug-2008
Posts: 654
From: Germany

@cgutjahr

Too many project ideas, true. I haven't done much in the past 2-3 years. But it is still itching

Why would be "run AmigaOS3.9" not a good idea? Or compositing window manager? If the emulation and the host share the memory (not sandboxed), and Amiga windows are patched to Smart Refresh (there are patches already doing this), compositing is not that hard anymore. And once there is compositing, it can be redirected to the host desktop.

>> Add Gadtools and MUI/Zune plus an intuition/graphics compatible API and you're in productivity heaven.
If that was so easy. There is a reason why VAMOS does only CLI stuff. This is pretty much the same on all platforms. It also lacks JIT. So basically is does nothing that would be helpful for "productivity" emulation.

3.9 itself looks ugly, but its ok with AfA OS. But of course, OS4 is more tempting but also harder to get running I believe.

> What kind of applications do you have in mind, anyway?
My own of course and a few others. Like Bars&Pipes, ArtEffect, Filemanagers, YAM, Amiblitz3 etc.
Btw, Amiblitz3 compiler is already separated from TED and can be run from CLI. But without JIT it will not be much fun. And the created executables won't run .

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