@OlafS25

i have not payed for a sam and expecting equal power compared too pc, i bought it too be among os4 people and to have fun, don't you have fun with your 64k adventure? do you have equal power of what pc/win can deliver?

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@Trixie

Quote:

During my 25-year personal history with the Amiga I've had an A500, an A600, an A1200 (with a 030 and a 040 accelerator) and an A4000 (with a 060 accelerator and a graphics card). My current system is a Sam440-Flex @ 667 MHz running AmigaOS4.1. It is _BY FAR_ the fastest, most stable and easiest-to-use Amiga system I have ever owned. So perhaps you could elaborate on the "downgrade" you're talking about?

amazing to repeatedly read these comparisons of self-made hardware using embedded components and hacked-together operating system with what they are based on and trying to emulate. something that was once a state of the art solution and industry standard, millions have bought in. even more amazing, when people come to a conclusion and advocate to a wider audience, that the amateur projects they happen to be interested in are better than the genuine thing, even though there is almost no public awareness or interest to be gathered either way. amiga may have not been perfect in every detail but os4 is a failure all along. there can not be any question about it.

@TheDungeonDelver

Quote:

However, no cards as such have been mentioned as coming out for the 1200.

it has been told that the higher models will be addressed later. being myself a previous owner of an a600 but currently only of aga machines, i think its fine and a good road map to get things done eventually.

at least apollo core provides apparently growing compatibility to the whole 68k platform:
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=3200&z=sKgqy1

Last edited by wawa on 02-Aug-2015 at 06:14 PM.

@wawa

Quote:

it has been told that the higher models will be addressed later. being myself a previous owner of an a600 but currently only of aga machines, i think its fine and a good road map to get things done eventually.

What roadmap?
Developers on OCS/AGA is only interested in the chipset because hard to make modern effects on low end computers.

It's like the C64 community, no one is asking for faster C64's, because that not what people use it for.
What is failure is getting developers to use AHI, and RTG.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Aug-2015 at 06:23 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Aug-2015 at 06:22 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Aug-2015 at 06:21 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Aug-2015 at 06:21 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Why would AHI & RTG get a high priority when there are only a handful Amiga machines equipped with RTG hardware, AHI supports Paula by the way.

Im quite surprised at how much actually supports it on my old Amiga 1200. Lots of games, demos and of course lots of programs supports both AGA and RTG through CyberGraphX on the old Amiga OS3 setup. I really can't understand why you are complaining like a spoiled brat in the year 2015??

@NutsAboutAmiga

Gunnar has intention to support RTG (one of the cards has a special output for monitors)

so there is a roadmap

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @cdimauro Quote: I wrote about having (the service offered by) Petunia AND a sandbox (for the running 68K app). You cannot have both currently. Álmos Rajnai spent another 5 years of his life writing a JIT compiler for (e)UAE, this is not Petunia, this is a different JIT compiler that was designed for different requirements. http://euaejit.blogspot.no/

That's not the same thing as Petunia. (E)UAE emulates the chipset also.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @cdimauro Quote: A sandbox runs an application in an isolated environment, so that it cannot damage other apps, or even the o.s.. However it can allow some form of resource sharing. Well yes (e)UAE does, provide similar resource sharing as (Win)UAE, it shares the keyboard, mouse, hard disk, file-system, sound-card, CPU, RAM and so on.

They have only limited resource sharing because nobody tried to offload more to the host.

Some of them, like CPU and RAM, are obviously shared by all apps: there's no other way than... using them.

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @cdimauro Quote: I wrote about having (the service offered by) Petunia AND a sandbox (for the running 68K app). First, you compared Petunia and WinUAE approach.

Well, we discussed of a lot of things in this thread.

I recall to you that YOUR point was that it wasn't possible to have a 68K apps using native versions of datatypes with WinUAE. And so on...

What's your point here?
Quote:

As OS4 offers both sandbox and single enviroment, it is clearly superior.

You are mixing two different things here.

OS4 offers absolutely no sandboxes in general, and in particular for 68K apps using Petunia.

That also means that even running 68K apps under EUAE you always are exposed to the risk to bringing down the whole system, because EUAE is one application like any other running on OS4, so sharing everything with all other apps and even with the o.s..

@noXLar

Quote:

noXLar wrote: @cdimauro sorry, i should write more clearly so you understand yes Winuae on win7 i running 2-3 instances simultaneously, and because the way windows handles running applications if one crashes every running instances crashes..

OK. That's really strange, since it never happened to me that an application running on Windows killed also other apps when it died.

Honestly I haven't tried specifically running WinUAE multiple times.

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @OlafS25 Quote: And there is at least one OS on 68k that is also in development. I wrote nothing against plain 68k enviroment or still improving AROS68k. I tried to show advantages of integration of "guest" and "host" applications (by terms of cdmauro) in one enviroment.

Nobody stated the contrary: there are advantages, of course. But with the specific implementation of OS4, there are also disadvantages...

@LimoU.Sin

Quote:

LimoU.Sin wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga Why would AHI & RTG get a high priority when there are only a handful Amiga machines equipped with RTG hardware, AHI supports Paula by the way. Im quite surprised at how much actually supports it on my old Amiga 1200. Lots of games, demos and of course lots of programs supports both AGA and RTG through CyberGraphX on the old Amiga OS3 setup. I really can't understand why you are complaining like a spoiled brat in the year 2015??

For games you can use WinUAE to (almost) perfectly emulate the chipset.

But for applications using RTG and AHI is much better. That's why it's so interesting supporting them.

BTW WinUAE does it, albeit it's not the perfect solution for this task because you don't want to fully (or at all) emulate the chipset, and you want the maximum speed running applications.

A much better solution is represented by the project reported by terminillis, which let to use (E)UAE for running the 68K apps, but offloading almost all 68K API calls to the host o.s, which in this case is AROS. That offers better speed, and a much better integration with the host.

The top is represented by having 68K apps running like any other host o.s. application, sharing the same resources. That's something which is much harder to get, and it's the purpose of VAMOS project. But there's A LOT of work to do.

That's just to give you a quick overview about the different scenarios / needs of the amigans.

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: @LimoU.Sin For games you can use WinUAE to (almost) perfectly emulate the chipset. But for applications using RTG and AHI is much better. That's why it's so interesting supporting them. BTW WinUAE does it, albeit it's not the perfect solution for this task because you don't want to fully (or at all) emulate the chipset, and you want the maximum speed running applications. A much better solution is represented by the project reported by terminillis, which let to use (E)UAE for running the 68K apps, but offloading almost all 68K API calls to the host o.s, which in this case is AROS. That offers better speed, and a much better integration with the host. The top is represented by having 68K apps running like any other host o.s. application, sharing the same resources. That's something which is much harder to get, and it's the purpose of VAMOS project. But there's A LOT of work to do. That's just to give you a quick overview about the different scenarios / needs of the amigans.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. You need software that makes use of, or require 16.8 million colors on the screen at once? Why do you want an OS that looks like a candy factory and when you start a program it looks like the good old Amiga? it seems rather strange?

What they have done here is nice but certainly not necessary. only difference between AGA and RTG is that the demos are running on faster Gfx memory and that makes the FPS increases a few frames.

http://aminet.net/package/demo/euro/CNCD-KillerCGX#contents
http://files.scene.org/get:nl-http/parties/2000/satellite00/amiga/demo/apx-iw2m.lha
http://files.scene.org/get:nl-http/parties/2000/theparty00/amiga/demo/eph-j.lha
http://files.scene.org/get:nl-http/parties/2002/mekkasymposium02/amiga/in64/lns-thecastle-final.lha
http://files.scene.org/get:nl-http/parties/2001/mekkasymposium01/amiga/demo/mwi_amsb.lha

@LimoU.Sin

Quote:

LimoU.Sin wrote: @cdimauro Quote: cdimauro wrote: @LimoU.Sin For games you can use WinUAE to (almost) perfectly emulate the chipset. But for applications using RTG and AHI is much better. That's why it's so interesting supporting them. BTW WinUAE does it, albeit it's not the perfect solution for this task because you don't want to fully (or at all) emulate the chipset, and you want the maximum speed running applications. A much better solution is represented by the project reported by terminillis, which let to use (E)UAE for running the 68K apps, but offloading almost all 68K API calls to the host o.s, which in this case is AROS. That offers better speed, and a much better integration with the host. The top is represented by having 68K apps running like any other host o.s. application, sharing the same resources. That's something which is much harder to get, and it's the purpose of VAMOS project. But there's A LOT of work to do. That's just to give you a quick overview about the different scenarios / needs of the amigans. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. You need software that makes use of, or require 16.8 million colors on the screen at once? Why do you want an OS that looks like a candy factory and when you start a program it looks like the good old Amiga? it seems rather strange?

The o.s. too can make use of the more colors, if they are available. And with a proper set of icons and theme the Workbench can also look nice.

Anyway, RTG enables not only more colors, but is also much faster on manipulating the graphic.

Of course, the best is using apps which support RTG.
Quote:

What they have done here is nice but certainly not necessary. only difference between AGA and RTG is that the demos are running on faster Gfx memory and that makes the FPS increases a few frames.

That's no true. See above.

The graphic with RTG is faster not only because of the faster graphic memory, but because the pixel formats are packed/chunky, and especially because you don't need to make (re)calculations when using HAM8 mode (you directly access to the color components).
Quote:

http://aminet.net/package/demo/euro/CNCD-KillerCGX#contents http://files.scene.org/get:nl-http/parties/2000/satellite00/amiga/demo/apx-iw2m.lha http://files.scene.org/get:nl-http/parties/2000/theparty00/amiga/demo/eph-j.lha http://files.scene.org/get:nl-http/parties/2002/mekkasymposium02/amiga/in64/lns-thecastle-final.lha http://files.scene.org/get:nl-http/parties/2001/mekkasymposium01/amiga/demo/mwi_amsb.lha

Sorry, but I never liked demos: I always preferred apps or games to run on my Amigas.

@cdimauro

Quote:

I recall to you that YOUR point was that it wasn't possible to have a 68K apps using native versions of datatypes with WinUAE. And so on...

Not impossible, only hard to do. To (mis)quote fellow AmigaWorld.net member: But someone has to build the infrastructure to make use of such libraries for WinUAE purposes. That was my point.

Quote:

That also means that even running 68K apps under EUAE you always are exposed to the risk to bringing down the whole system, because EUAE is one application like any other running on OS4, so sharing everything with all other apps and even with the o.s..

Sure, Amiga applications can ruin entire Amiga enviroment - be it WinUAE or OS4. In OS4 you have advantage of single enviroment for "guest" and "host" applications. Outside WinUAE, well you have Windows world (or Linux/Wine), certainly not something appealing to Amiga users.

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: @LimoU.Sin Quote: LimoU.Sin wrote: @cdimauro I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. You need software that makes use of, or require 16.8 million colors on the screen at once? Why do you want an OS that looks like a candy factory and when you start a program it looks like the good old Amiga? it seems rather strange? The o.s. too can make use of the more colors, if they are available. And with a proper set of icons and theme the Workbench can also look nice. Anyway, RTG enables not only more colors, but is also much faster on manipulating the graphic. Of course, the best is using apps which support RTG. Quote: What they have done here is nice but certainly not necessary. only difference between AGA and RTG is that the demos are running on faster Gfx memory and that makes the FPS increases a few frames. That's no true. See above. The graphic with RTG is faster not only because of the faster graphic memory, but because the pixel formats are packed/chunky, and especially because you don't need to make (re)calculations when using HAM8 mode (you directly access to the color components). Quote: http://aminet.net/package/demo/euro/CNCD-KillerCGX#contents http://files.scene.org/get:nl-http/parties/2000/satellite00/amiga/demo/apx-iw2m.lha http://files.scene.org/get:nl-http/parties/2000/theparty00/amiga/demo/eph-j.lha http://files.scene.org/get:nl-http/parties/2002/mekkasymposium02/amiga/in64/lns-thecastle-final.lha http://files.scene.org/get:nl-http/parties/2001/mekkasymposium01/amiga/demo/mwi_amsb.lha Sorry, but I never liked demos: I always preferred apps or games to run on my Amigas.

I think its 8 bit max 256 colors, not HAM8. and chunky conversions are done by the 68k processor, at least on AGA.

The point is that the Amiga has been mostly a retro platform since Commodore declared bankruptcy, at least on the software side. There have been only a very few good new programs and only a few ported old games since 1994 requiring RTG.

Almost all major software developers and companies went to new markets in the nineties. There were only a few serious players left but I think they have disappeared too around 2000 or something.



Don't misunderstand me completely because RTG is a fine thing to have for big resolutions and better refresh rate and more colors, but that is mostly regarding graphics software like 3D rendering and things like image processing.


And the computer can work in 24 bit even if the screen doesn't show 24 bit.

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @cdimauro Quote: I recall to you that YOUR point was that it wasn't possible to have a 68K apps using native versions of datatypes with WinUAE. And so on... Not impossible, only hard to do.

Your quote: "I don´t think you can do the same in WinUAE".
Quote:

To (mis)quote fellow AmigaWorld.net member: But someone has to build the infrastructure to make use of such libraries for WinUAE purposes. That was my point.

Nothing so say about it, but it wasn't evident from what you wrote.
Quote:

Quote: That also means that even running 68K apps under EUAE you always are exposed to the risk to bringing down the whole system, because EUAE is one application like any other running on OS4, so sharing everything with all other apps and even with the o.s.. Sure, Amiga applications can ruin entire Amiga enviroment - be it WinUAE or OS4.

But WinUAE doesn't kill the host o.s..
Quote:

In OS4 you have advantage of single enviroment for "guest" and "host" applications.

That's a good thing.
Quote:

Outside WinUAE, well you have Windows world (or Linux/Wine), certainly not something appealing to Amiga users.

When I run WinUAE, I don't switch continuously back and forth between it and other Windows applications: I use it.

But it'll be interesting to run 68K apps at the same level of the native ones, like vamos is trying to do. And whatever an amigan can think about it: if he doesn't like it, it's his problem and has still to grow.

However, and I return to the original question that you put, the primary goal of working on enhancing WinUAE, AROS/Emumiga is offloading as much as possible the work to the native platform. So, increasing speed.

Another interesting and comfortable thing is sharing as much resources as possible, of course.

EDIT: typo.

Last edited by cdimauro on 04-Aug-2015 at 06:45 AM.

@LimoU.Sin

Quote:

LimoU.Sin wrote: @cdimauro I think its 8 bit max 256 colors, not HAM8.

If you talk about games, yes: it's 256 colors maximum.
Quote:

and chunky conversions are done by the 68k processor, at least on AGA.

Which is a very expensive operation, whereas with RTG you need nothing: the processed framebuffer is ready to be immediately displayed.
Quote:

The point is that the Amiga has been mostly a retro platform since Commodore declared bankruptcy, at least on the software side. There have been only a very few good new programs and only a few ported old games since 1994 requiring RTG. Almost all major software developers and companies went to new markets in the nineties. There were only a few serious players left but I think they have disappeared too around 2000 or something.

You talked about games, but Amiga had a lot of video cards which introduced RTG, and applications that took advantage of it.

Remember: Amiga was the cradle of the computer graphic (for the masses): 2D, animation, 3D.

BTW, I'm not interest to games which are ported to the Amiga, if they are already available for other platform, where they can also run better.
Quote:

Don't misunderstand me completely because RTG is a fine thing to have for big resolutions and better refresh rate and more colors, but that is mostly regarding graphics software like 3D rendering and things like image processing.

Sure, here RTG shines.

But even when you use your Workbench and move a window, for example, with AGA it kills the system, since it's deadly slow, whereas with RTG it works like a charm.

Please, try an RTG-enable Amiga and judge yourself.
Quote:

And the computer can work in 24 bit even if the screen doesn't show 24 bit.

That's makes sense only for ray tracing rendering, which takes long. Not for real-time graphic, like painting, animation, and 3D modeling (with preview), or even when you have to watch a 24 bit image (it takes time to convert it to HAM8).

@cdimauro

You obvioulsly don't get that nearly all Amiga computers was not delivered with RTG cards. And how many Amiga 500 and 1200s where sold? you couldn't put a RTG card in the 1200 until around 1998 I think.


And I was talking about the demos i linked too, thats because that was what NutsAboutAmiga was whining about in the first place. You obviously were not able to run neither the CGX nor AGA versions since you think it was HAM8, or you know you can change color palette over time?

@cdimauro

Quote:

When I run WinUAE, I don't switch continuously back and forth between it and other Windows applications: I use it.

In 68k emulation, I often switch to Windows to read game documentation (PDF manual, online solutions, maps etc.). Sure, AmigaOS4 offers better software support in this regard (PDF, Web), but known limitations force switch to Windows even there.

@LimoU.Sin

Quote:

you couldn't put a RTG card in the 1200 until around 1998 I think.

In theory, you could expand A1200 with Z2 (or even Z3 slots) and use RTG GFX card.

Last edited by pavlor on 04-Aug-2015 at 03:38 PM.