@Hypex

well you need hardware beyond what we currently have too be able too develop support for it, and this release and x1000 just open the doors for the future. without hardware no support

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@pavlor

Quote:

I see you can´t understand very reason of OS4/MorphOS existence: bring new features without losing to much from the past.

So keep and improve 4.1FE for 32bit and legacy stuff and move to 64bit with 4.2 . Then give a free copy of FE with each copy of 4.2 purchased.

Perhaps some scheme could be developed for fast reloading of each system to minimize rebooting of the OS time.

Damn,,, lets move along. If FE can be sandboxed into 4.2 in the future then do that. Pretty much the same for MorphOS.

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@cdimauro

EMS, extended memory oh my.
And that wasn't really even an addressing issue at first, just the result of Bill's stupid "640K is enough for anyone" mentally.

However, these ideas could be used as a stop gap before the 64bit hurdle is addressed.
Hey, I'm still running into issues with other OS' over compatibility issues.

As to addressing above the 32bit memory range by a 32bit OS, of course its 64bits (you can not hold the addresses in a 32bit register so...).

But you are right that it doesn't use any of the power of a 64bit processor.

@cdimauro


Quote:

MorphOS will do this step [eliminate legacy comptibility]

It may be the only way to grow.
And we can always run something boxed or an emulator like UAE.

And if you want legacy, what is wrong with legacy hardware, emulation, FPGA implementation, etc?

So we see a wider separation between old and new.
Had to happen.

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @cdimauro Quote: MorphOS will do this step. Think about it... Once done, we will see both pros and cons of such move...

We already know it: more robust and modern o.s. vs lack of transparent integration of legacy applications.
Quote:

Quote: However I use AROS (but the same can be applied to AmigaOS4 and MorphOS) because I want to enjoy a different o.s. experience which is clearly linked to the Amiga past through the Amiga o.s. infrastructure. I use AROS too, but my user experience is hindered by lack of compatibility (speaking about AROS "x86").

Even with UAE/JANUS?
Quote:

Quote: I already have Windows 10 for the "daily needs", while AROS is for fun. That is exactly, what I wrote: your needs aren´t the same as these of current OS4/MorphOS users. They want (at least some) "daily needs" and fun together.

Can be. I need a multiuser o.s. because of my family (we share the same PCs, but each one has a personal/private account & resources), and a post-Amiga platform cannot satisfy this.

And, as a coder, I use Visual Studio and Sublime Text 3, which aren't ported to any post-Amiga platform.

So, there's no chance for me other than using Windows for may dayly needs. Other people can have different needs, of course.
Quote:

Quote: I know it, but DOpus and OWB show that for big and important projects a collaboration can be made, and it worked at the end. Two applications (although important) can´t be compared to new OS developement. Here you would fight with overgrown egos...

I never talked of a new o.s. development. I talked of a common integration layer between the native and the legacy platform, which can be developed by coders of all platforms.


@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @cdimauro regarding MorphOS "NG" we will see how it will look like (in some years). It will break compatiblity not only to 32bit 68k world (you need UAE) but also to existing MorphOS. One of the MorphOS devs admitted that (except 68k via emulation) no 3rd party software will work on it (and because they want to implement modern features like MP and SMP and 64bit I assume that no existing MorphOS software will work by simply recompiling). They also want to drop legacy concepts like datatypes and only offer wrappers for the old APIs. If all that becomes real it is for me nothing more than a tech demo with no software. There is no huge activity on MorphOS regarding 3rd parties right now and then they even split their small platform. To me it is a risky bet.

It's something which is worth a try, because the post-Amiga scene is inter-ed to an anachronistic o.s. infrastructure.
Quote:

regarding cooperation I would use the famous "Oh No!" from Lemmings The fanboys in the two communities and the OS devs really hate each other, even people later joining one of the two platforms are taking this over. Of course there are always some exceptions but overall. So no chance. Magellan and OWB are 3rd party software with common interest so some people joined (most not OS developers). On OS level I do not see that. I had discussions on morphzone recently trying to explain that the "red vs. blue" war finally harms everyone but I think it so deep now that people will never overcome that ever.

Let's say this: I don't think that reinventing the wheel makes sense with the so little resources available in the post-Amiga lands. AROS already provides a compatibility layer, which can be used as a base by all other post-Amiga o.ses which needs a sandboxed approach for running legacy applications.

The AROS license requires that changes should be published, so any contribution will increase the quality of the original code, with benefits to all platforms.
Quote:

Also basically all "NG" platforms are more and more heading in different directions so that at some point working together makes no sense anymore. I personal thought cooperation between MorphOS and AROS would have made sense (both share code, both have many components in common) but (besides MorphOS is simply the best and 10 years ahead why working together attitude in MorphOS camp) with "MorphOS NG" the common base will vanish. In my view MorphOS will not be "Amiga" anymore, at best "Amiga inspired". But there we will see...

See above: it's time to think about an Amiga-inspired platform.


@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote: @cdimauro EMS, extended memory oh my. And that wasn't really even an addressing issue at first, just the result of Bill's stupid "640K is enough for anyone" mentally.

To be precise, it wasn't Bill Gates that pronounced that sentence. Anyway, the real limit was represented by the 1MB addressable by the 8086.

Something similar happened with the Amiga also, where engineers designed a crap memory mapping which limited a lot the usable memory in the 16MB range (the limit of 68000 and 680EC020 CPUs).
Quote:

However, these ideas could be used as a stop gap before the 64bit hurdle is addressed.

If it's used internally by the o.s., there's no problem: it's a temporary solution which makes sense.

But publicly exposing it and forcing developers to adopt those APIs to overcome a ridiculous limit of an ancient o.s., well, I firmly disagree.
Quote:

Hey, I'm still running into issues with other OS' over compatibility issues.

I didn't got, sorry. What kind of issues are you talking about?
Quote:

As to addressing above the 32bit memory range by a 32bit OS, of course its 64bits (you can not hold the addresses in a 32bit register so...).

No, you need only a few address lines to address more physical memory. 64-bit is overkill. In fact, even 64-bit processors address much less physical memory (usually 40-bit/1TB).

x86 processors used the so called PAE with 36-bit/16GB physical memory addressable. PowerPCs (in 32-bit mode) should be similar, if I remember correctly.


@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote: @cdimauro Quote: MorphOS will do this step [eliminate legacy comptibility] It may be the only way to grow. And we can always run something boxed or an emulator like UAE. And if you want legacy, what is wrong with legacy hardware, emulation, FPGA implementation, etc? So we see a wider separation between old and new. Had to happen.

Absolutely. Emulation (in a sandbox) offers also the possibility to share resources between the new/native and the legacy o.s..

@iggy

your system will have to prove it by offering more software. Without software it is a nice technical concept but more or less useless. We will see...

I am not convinced of it

@cdimauro

I have already tried such a discussion with members of MorphOS camp, sorry to say but you only get a bloody head. They feel vast superior (reminds me a little of ancient china before shooted down by the europeans) so they think they cannot benefit of any cooperation because they always have the best solution (years ahead of Aros, someone even said 10 years). You cannot just discuss about cooperation if one side feels superior. The other thing the MorphOS devs want a much more radical break with the past as the Aros devs (that do want to keep as much compatibility as possible) and also they want to make radical changes and partly even drop the existing API so I doubt that then code sharing makes much sense anymore.

Besides of that I also had the idea and proposed it already a couple of times with zero interest and even finally all getting on a personal level. So forget it best or try to discuss with them on morphzone if you want but do not have too much hope there.

@OlafS25

Quote:

your system will have to prove it by offering more software

I actually don't see that happening.
But it will offer a better base to code from, so we can only see.
After all, we all exist in the little side water known as 'hobbyist computing'.
Attracting developers is difficult (not much audience, limited rewards).

But one way to get more developers is offering a better environment.

@OlafS25

I feel SO unloved.

Its not so much a matter of "vast superior[ity]".
Its just that we have most of the developers that were left trying to advance the platform when things collapsed.

And we are pretty comfortable where we are.
The two OS can continue to develop in parallel.
There no real competition here.

As to cooperation.
Well, you do have a port of OWB.
Even if it required that you cobble together something (that would be OS4 MUI4) that would be compatible with programs coded for our MUI4.

You'd probably get more cooperation, but you keep making posts like the one you've made while running around championing the idea of "Real Amiga OS".

That argument is SO over.

Funny, we don't get this kind of crap from the AROS community.

Last edited by iggy on 04-Oct-2015 at 11:25 PM.
Last edited by iggy on 04-Oct-2015 at 11:24 PM.

@iggy

Quote:

Funny, we don't get this kind of crap from the AROS community.

You do realize OlafS25 is the maintainer of the AROS Vision 68K Distro right?

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@iggy

if I have time and interest I will search for some of the citates from MorphOS camp, many were not very friendly. I have not answered to you but cdimauro who brings up "cooperation" (like many others before) but it is a waste of time.

Fab is one of the few who not ported his software but at least opened his own software. But here we talk about a application, from a MorphOS dev admittedly but it is a application. There are other applications like Magellan where cooperation also worked. But cdimauro talked about OS develöpment and not about applications and I am not aware of any sort of cooperation there except giving back source changes for components from Aros complying to rules, not more not less. Cooperation would be giving more than that or helping with improving Zune or similar, something that happens voluntary. I am not aware of anything but perhaps you can remember something I do not know.

@terminills

He thinks I am a BANF (Blind Amiga Name Follower)

Very funny

@OlafS25

Fab IS a great guy.
When I had trouble logging into my Comcast e-mail account with OWB he actually took the time to accept a login from me and go in to diagnose the problem himself (it was an obscure issue I never would have figured out).

And, for the most part, I don't have any problem with AROS devewlopers.
I make a point of occasionally PM'ing Staf Verhagen (always make a point on his birthday), but for the most part we just co-exist.
What I meant was I don't see the animosity.

Its hard to get AROS programmers to cross the platforms, but they've got there hands full anyway.

What most OS4 users don't realize there no particular animosity felt toward them, some of us just don't like Hyperion's Ben Hermans.
Frankly, I feel a great deal of sympathy for the two brothers doing most of the coding for Hyperion.
They have received some truly horrid communications over the years.

That being said,
We don't get much 'cooperation' here either.
Very few ports from AROS or OS4 make it to our environment, and I've actually had programmers tell me that they are only writing from 'real AmigaOS'.
What OS3.X?


[

@OlafS25

Quote:

He thinks I am a BANF (Blind Amiga Name Follower)

No they use OS4, or worse, insist it has to be done on legacy hardware.

@OlafS25: if MorphOS devs feel so much superior, why they have used AROS' code in the past?

BTW, as I already repeated to pavlor, I NEVER talked of contributing to the o.s. development. ONLY to the integration layer between the o.s. and the 68K (or even PowerPC) emulation. UAE/Janus for AROS, to be more precise. It's something which can be shared and co-developed.

to all the x86 will solve x & y in Amiga land people:

from Amiga.org and of course on same thread announcing new hardware from A-Eon for our favourite OS

Quote:
Originally Posted by xboxOwn View Post
Weeeeee I am so happy there are three different OS's Hehehe by the way I loooovee aros here. You guys are aware that if AmigaOS.4.1 does not jump to x86 soon....it will lose the battle and die a horrible death. I hope X5000 is x86 or else ouch.
Quote

I see you're relatively new here so I'm assuming you've missed the many thousands of threads speaking of this jump to x86 in the past and luckily you missed out on the various 'Amiga Camp' wars which unfortunately only divided and hurt our community.

AROS has been around for quite a while running on very cheap x86 hardware configs and the cheapest of all the Amiga OS's being free and open source to boot. I have evangelized it to many of my non-Amiga friends over the years as the alternative to Main stream x86 options. When I ask these people how they are enjoying the AROS experience they all tell me it's 'nice' or 'cute' or something to that effect and never get drawn into it for an extended period of time.
This is the where I fail to understand how any Amiga flavour OS will benefit from moving to x86! Unless a person has a connection with Amiga in the past then they won't want to understand why they should use this niche OS when an already free open source OS does everything they need already for many many years (you know the one that Linus dude started).

for every hobby I have I am 'connected' in it with my time and money and most importantly my passion for the hobby. You cannot force people to enjoy a hobby.
I have friends that spend enormous amounts of money that make me cringe on radio controlled planes and models and let's not talk about those that are into classic cars restoration lol

Theses same people still understand why I enjoy spending time and money keeping my various Amiga's and 8 bit machines still running and also my passion for AmigaNG developments.

IMHO cheap hardware and x86 isn't the answer.

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@cdimauro

the MorphOS devs (as I understand) will make a break in the API and are implementing a different strategy than the Aros devs or the AmigaOS devs. Now latest the idea you have (and I had and propably a lot of other people had before) is not really useful or possible anymore. I do not think it will happen for different reasons (I have mentioned some of them including different strategies) so pushing there makes no sense except you want a "emotional" and "personal" debate. Good luck with that.

@klx300r
And than there is arm...
The light at the end of the tunnel is arix/aeros combo running everywhere with a bit of app streaming here and there over the cloud.

About the morphos-elite I could tell some stories as well but it is getting boring : )
I have amigaos 4 machines and native aros Machines but I really use only aeros on a odroid.
It runs all I need including a few Windows apps and I can view my silverlight VOD-services.

So I also tend to say x86 is meh... Boring and a expensive entry.
With Debian Jessie under the hood you can also use older "openGl"(not OpenGL Es!) /direct3d games so time will play the ball into the right corner..

Whatever: the good news: aros runs on different platforms. I am curious if a closed source is like morphos will offer support for multiple archs..

Btw.. Is it true hat Linux runs faster than morphos on a Sam460?
Crazy..

Arm soc's bring back a bit of the home computer feeling...

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 05-Oct-2015 at 09:42 AM.

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@klx300r

the big disadavantage is the better integration of 68k (like done with petunia) so it offers more "amiga feeling" and you could also use 68k binaries (like it seems to be the case at AmigaOS even today), on X86 you can only use what is ported and you need UAE. On the other hand X86 hardware is better and cheaper and much more common than PPC and you have advantages when porting X86 software (like OWB in our case). Both concepts have advantages and disadvantages and without devs and software it makes no big difference on which hardware you run the OS. Software decides how useful a OS is not the other way round.

@OlafS25
Just for the record:
If someone would spend a little bit on emumiga or vamos... Than it would work on aros x86 also integrated...
We discussed it... It takes time and a bit pizza and beer aka money.
Something for arix..

Another note:
People have a lot stuff for aros in the pipeline.. Some hold back for strategic reasons, some because it would need a larger user base to recover costs or just to gain the highest possible interest and awareness...

@topic
I would really like to buy a x5000 : ) but it is too expensive.. I think I will check out a sam460
Is it possible to rent a board for a few weeks?

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 05-Oct-2015 at 09:53 AM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 05-Oct-2015 at 09:52 AM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 05-Oct-2015 at 09:47 AM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 05-Oct-2015 at 09:46 AM.

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