Click Here
home features news forums classifieds faqs links search
5657 members 
Amiga Q&A /  Free for All /  Emulation /  Gaming / (Latest Posts)
Login

Nickname

Password

Lost Password?

Don't have an account yet?
Register now!

Support Amigaworld.net
Your support is needed and is appreciated as Amigaworld.net is primarily dependent upon the support of its users.
Donate

Menu
Main sections
Home
Features
News
Forums
Classifieds
Links
Downloads
Extras
OS4 Zone
IRC Network
AmigaWorld Radio
Newsfeed
Top Members
Amiga Dealers
Information
About Us
FAQs
Advertise
Polls
Terms of Service
Search

IRC Channel
Server: irc.amigaworld.net
Channel: #Amigaworld
Channel Policy and Guidelines

(Uses JAVA Applet and Port 1024)
Visit the Chatroom Website

Who's Online
 66 guest(s) on-line.
 0 member(s) on-line.



You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!
 Trekiej:  47 mins ago
 Develin:  48 mins ago
 noXLar:  57 mins ago
 Pierre55:  1 hr 5 mins ago
 AmigaMac:  1 hr 22 mins ago
 asymetrix:  1 hr 33 mins ago
 Yssing:  1 hr 37 mins ago
 OneTimer1:  1 hr 43 mins ago
 amigakit:  1 hr 56 mins ago
 zipper:  2 hrs 10 mins ago

/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga General Chat
      /  First to SMP
Register To Post

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 Next Page )
PosterThread
Leo 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 22:29:11
#21 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1576
From: Unknown

Quote:

this constant referring to mac os as a close refference to amiga os is the more rediculous the more frequent and insistant

I am not saying macOS resemble AmigaOS, just that macOS has, just like Linux you like to refer to, memory protection, virtual addressing, SMP,.. and it doesn't make it a Linux clone. Far from it.

So why would adding memory protection, SMP,... To AmigaOS magically turn into Linux?

Also, you cannot run RTG and old chipset apps (or: games) on the same monitor. I'd say that's a drawback, and a big one. At least 90% of RTG boards don't allow this.

Sometimes breaking compatibility is a need for evolution.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
wawa 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 22:30:38
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5839
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Quote:
Simple. Either your random legacy Amiga 68k app is allowed to peek and poke the entire 31-bit Amiga memory space (means compatible), or it's not (means incompatible).


not really. it depends as usual on percentage and rang of the apps that do. if we took entire field into account morphos wouldnt stand a chance to be considered compatible, os4 wouldnt even exist, and even aros68k might pose a problem;)

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
wawa 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 22:43:41
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5839
From: Unknown

@Leo

Quote:
I am not saying macOS resemble AmigaOS, just that macOS has, just like Linux you like to refer to, memory protection, virtual addressing, SMP,.. and it doesn't make it a Linux clone. Far from it.


it is unix with a custom gui so far i know. what makes it different is the exclusive quality mac os applications restricted to it. otherwise you wouldnt notice. could use windows as well. where are exclusive amiga, morphos, os4, aros applications that would fill in that gap? now understand?

Quote:
Also, you cannot run RTG and old chipset apps (or: games) on the same monitor. I'd say that's a drawback, and a big one. At least 90% of RTG boards don't allow this.


you might be astonished.. i can. my a4k connected to my lcd hd tv handles it both just fine. even superhires interlace pal is actually usable for some productivity with barely a flicker, if not for voodoo3 id have certainly used it more. but this is a question of nowadays appropriate periferials. back then youd simply connect hires monitor to the other port or use multiscan, whatever rocks your pole.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
megol 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 22:52:52
#24 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 209
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@michalsc

Quote:
SASOS


interesting, while i dont fully grasp the concept. is there any good reference on web, i dont seem to come across it.

i wonder why sparceness of memory matters? is this approach wasteful by design? would that make sense to research if it was possible to introduce it on a legacy platform, such as 68k, to prove if binary compatibility could be maintained, or is it doomed to fail from the start?


The Amiga and Amiga OS is an example of a SASOS, there is a single address space where all programs live. In the Amiga example there is no protection between programs but there have been many other SASOS examples with protection.

In comparison most POSIX (read: Unix) type systems have a private address space per program (process).

The advantage with a SASOS is that some type of communication is easier, a pointer given to program refers to the same memory as the one that gives the pointer. That isn't true in a system with multiple address spaces (in general) and so shared data have to be transferred in a different way and a shared memory buffer will most likely have different addresses in different processes.

The advantage with a private address space per process is that each process potentially have a larger space for data (not shared by others), that some type of virtual memory tricks become easier etc.

Note however that this is a modified truth: the reason Meltdown have to be patched in standard operating systems is that the kernel address space is mapped into each private address space with a protection bit indicating only the kernel can access a certain piece of data as protection. If the program tries to read/write the kernel space data it will be stopped and most likely killed. Or it would if the protection couldn't be bypassed by a hardware bug - AKA Meltdown.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
simplex 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 16-Jan-2018 23:46:51
#25 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 640
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@Leo

Quote:
I don't understand why adding modern features would make AmigaOS less Amiga than it is now.

Because broken is better, apparently.

The original design for AmigaOS involved resource tracking. That goal was abandoned mainly because development was taking too long, not because it was deemed inferior to a system where any program that crashes can hold on to a huge block of memory and thus, zombie-like, prevent anyone else from taking it.

Memory protection would have been a great idea, too, but without a separate MMU the developers decided it wasn't an option. Today you could get around it by running old AmigaOS in a virtual machine, but of course people who want to torment the metal aren't keen on that and will hasten to declare that if it isn't state-of-the-art 1980s technology then it isn't an "Amiga".

Honestly, this discussion reminds me of people who groused when windows and mice were taking over from command-line terminals. "It uses so much memory!" "It makes it harder to control!" "It's trying to be a Mac!"

_________________

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
wawa 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 17-Jan-2018 1:32:14
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5839
From: Unknown

@simplex

im waiting till anyone of those constantly opting for a completely new incompatible amiga os simply take any actual step in the direction they are pointing. i ll give you another decade to think about it hard.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
realize 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 17-Jan-2018 1:42:25
#27 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2003
Posts: 1774
From: nyc

@g01df1sh

Wow I havent been active on this board in a couple of years and you guys are still DELUDED ABOUT SMP. ITS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO BE TOLD? SMP breaks the os its not going to happen so give it up . grrrrrr

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Leo 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 17-Jan-2018 7:47:12
#28 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1576
From: Unknown

Quote:

Honestly, this discussion reminds me of people who groused when windows and mice were taking over from command-line terminals. "It uses so much memory!" "It makes it harder to control!" "It's trying to be a Mac!"

True. I guess the same happened with graphic cards: "you can't drag down screens, it's not an Amiga".

I think there are people like this in any platform (Inc. macOS) but for some reason they appear to be a bigger part of the community on the Amiga.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
bennymee 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 17-Jan-2018 8:49:17
#29 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 366
From: Netherlands

@realize

That is simply not true, Hyperion is working on it!

http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?s=SMP

Please come back in another couple of years

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
thellier 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 17-Jan-2018 9:35:19
#30 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 226
From: Paris

OS4 already can use a kind of protected memory
This is not because apps and coders dont use it that it dont exists

See
http://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/Exec_Memory_Allocation
"MEMF_PRIVATE
This memory is private and only accessible within the context of the Task which allocated it. Private memory should always be preferred. Private memory is also swappable by default (i.e. not locked). This memory will not be visible to any other address space.
In a future version of AmigaOS, it is planned to have Task specific address spaces. This means each task could potentially address up to 4 GB of private memory each."


 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
WolfpackN64 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 17-Jan-2018 9:41:03
#31 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Oct-2016
Posts: 295
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

By definition DOS is a single-tasking 16 bit operating system.
Yet there exists pre-empetive multitasking DOS' that have 32 bit extenders.

Nothing is sacred as long as it's compatible.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
amigang 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 17-Jan-2018 9:46:56
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1372
From: Cheshire, England

Part of me thinks whats the point of bring SMP to AmigaOS if there are not enough dev to develop apps that would run fine on our current one core OS now. How many apps are going to be developed to take advantage of SMP if it ever comes to AmigaOS? How many apps may break because of SMP?. Plus im one of the people who often think what the Amiga platform may look like in 10 or 20 years time and I know every CPU now is becoming more and more cores and in a way if we ever want to truly take AmigaOS forward it needs to become SMP os.

The one thing I would like to see is the ability to run AmigaOS on one core and Linux on another and the more I think about it and after using Amikit Rabbit Hole it is pretty cool to see modern app running on Amiga like desktop even tough I know it not native port of software I being to think this is maybe the best solution of getting these apps on Amiga after what happened with tiberwolf and liberoffice(anyone have an update on that?).


_________________
AmigaNG, YouTube, Software

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
pixie 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 17-Jan-2018 21:59:57
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2646
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@TRIPOS

Quote:
MorphOS and OS4 is different from AROS in that they have always aimed for full and true Amiga compatibility where original Amiga 68k applications and even OS components will run unchanged in the same environment as PPC applications and OS components, sharing exactly the same resources, the same memory space, scheduled by the same scheduler, etc.


And yet AROS is the only one who can run ON 68k with "full and true Amiga compatibility where original Amiga 68k applications and even OS components will run unchanged in the same environment "

Can it be due to the endianness issue of x86 instead of "different objectives in mind"?

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
KimmoK 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 18-Jan-2018 10:02:37
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5080
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

Again I would vote for publishing early bird of AmigaOSMP/AmigaLikeOS5/whatever for absolute+diehard Amiga nerds.

I would pay/donate to that and intensively test it.

I want to see true next generation Amiga during my lifetime.
To me it means updated + simple + wicked fast + memoryprotected + multicore + 64bit + Amigalike OS on affordable (1000) HW.

I would be initially happy with 0% binary compatibility with 32bit Amigas. Some compatibility can be brought in later.

OS dudes, please deliver.
(no matter how you name it, really)


(if choosing some existing kernel, please try to pick a good microkernel and be sure there is no *nix complexity visible to user)

Last edited by KimmoK on 18-Jan-2018 at 10:06 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
agami 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 18-Jan-2018 10:10:06
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 493
From: Melbourne, Australia

@thread

Cloanto will be the first to implement SMP.

Last edited by agami on 18-Jan-2018 at 10:10 AM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Samurai_Crow 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 18-Jan-2018 10:26:56
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2071
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@KimmoK

Have you tried out Haiku? It's a spinoff of BeOS but the 64bit version is not compatible with anything. It lacks graphics acceleration and has excellent SMP, memory protection and an object oriented architecture. A hosted AROS version would add Amiga equivalence to it.

_________________

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
AmigaBlitter 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 18-Jan-2018 11:46:17
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3339
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

+1

But disagree on a different kernel options.

Amiga kernel would be great

_________________
retired

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
megol 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 18-Jan-2018 12:12:28
#38 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 209
From: Unknown

@realize

Quote:

realize wrote:
@g01df1sh

Wow I havent been active on this board in a couple of years and you guys are still DELUDED ABOUT SMP. ITS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO BE TOLD? SMP breaks the os its not going to happen so give it up . grrrrrr


I still haven't got anyone with the required knowledge to explain why my pseduo-SMP couldn't work.
Actually it would be proper SMP.

Not that I really care anymore.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
megol 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 18-Jan-2018 17:45:26
#39 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 209
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

IMO of the possible ways a NG Amiga could have happened in the past the QNX Neutrino one was the best.

It's simple - microkernel based with everything based on message-passing.
It's memory protected. Not a SASOS though.
It's SMP.
It wasn't 64 bit and delayed adding 64 bit until 2017. That's bad.
It's realtime.
It's available (at least now) with certifications for medical and other critical system support = reliable.

It wasn't (by default) Amiga-like. It was POSIX with Unix feeling coupled with a proprietary microkernel based GUI (Photon).

However given the flexibility of the system adding an Amiga-type shell and a Workbench styled (but improved of course) graphical shell would be possible. Not 100% sure but volumes could probably be worked in too if needed, the component responsible for the names is co-located with the kernel but separate so having two slightly different ones for Amigoid and POSIX systems should be possible.

And the most important point IMO was that QNX was enthusiastic about this chance. Until they got dumped that is. Well, actually even after that.

I actually do a search from time to time to see if anybody have started a simple opensource OS with similar design to that of QNX that could be used to create the system I once longed for. No luck yet, probably have to make it from scratch for it to ever become reality.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
ntromans 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 18-Jan-2018 18:39:29
#40 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jul-2004
Posts: 103
From: West Midlands, UK

There are quite a few responses here which basically say that if you are not sticking with full AmigaOS compatability, you might as well go with one of the 'mainstream` platforms, Linux being the usual suggestion. I think that for at least some of us this misses the point.

When CBM died I did look into moving to Linux, but after the simplicity and elegance of the Amiga was horrified at the arcane nature of it; life is basicaly too short and busy to spend time learning all the black magic you need to just to perform some simple action on it, so Linux is out for me. I want a system that I feel in control of, that does what I want and not what some corporate entity says I should be able to do - so forget Mac and Android. I also want a system that isn't regularly targeted by hackers and even in its pristine state is set up to send my personal data back to some server. So that's Windows out too.

I want a system that has the Amiga virtues of simplicity, efficiency and control, that looks and feels and works (at the user level) like an Amiga, that is not built on suspect or bloated foundations, and that runs as fast as possible on (reasonably) modern hardware. If that means under the skin it breaks compatability with classic AmigaOS so that it can have memory protection and SMP, that doesn't worry me at all. Running classic software in parallel with native is nice, but far from essential; when I want to edit a PageStream document and have to launch Janus, that adds all of 30 s to the start-up time. For me, the system doesn't even need to be called and Amiga; I'm quite happy with the name AROS...

I guess my point is that while for classic hardware and its evolutions (e.g. Vampire) compatability is essential, if you just was a system that works as wonderfully as the classic Amiga but takes advantage of 21st century hardware, what's the problem?

Cheers,
Nigel.

Last edited by ntromans on 18-Jan-2018 at 06:41 PM.
Last edited by ntromans on 18-Jan-2018 at 06:40 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 Next Page )

[ home ][ about us ] [ forums ][ classifieds ] [ links ][ news archive ] [ link to us ][ user account ]
Copyright 2000 - 2017 Amigaworld.net.

Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle