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      /  First to SMP
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OneTimer1 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 18-Jan-2018 19:19:15
#41 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 281
From: Unknown

@Leo

Quote:


I am not saying macOS resemble AmigaOS, just that macOS has, just like Linux you like to refer to, memory protection, virtual addressing, SMP,.. and it doesn't make it a Linux clone. Far from it.


Just a small correction:

Once upon a time Mac OS was a cooperative multitasking system just like Windows3.11 but with a much nicer GUI and a strange type of file system using two forks for one program.

Later it was replaced by OSX a UNIX like OS just like LINUX, OSX got a nice GUI on top of it that looked exactly like the old Mac OS had the same system APIs and some Mac OS emulation magic.
In the year of or lord 2016 this OSX was renamed into macOS.

So today’s macOS is totally different from Mac OS and even it's GUI has changed a lot in the last 20 years.

An actual macOS can not execute a Mac OS program that was written for a 68k or PPC Mac 30 years ago. There is nor CPU emulation not for 68k nor PPC in an actual macOS and I doubt you can port a 25 year old Mac OS program to macOS with a simple recompile

Normally Users back from 1995 would nor recognize an actual Mac as Macintosh. But the users are still calling it a Mac. All the changes did not really heart them because they could update old incompatible software into new software compatible to the new Mac.

Quote:


So why would adding memory protection, SMP,... To AmigaOS magically turn into Linux?


The Kickstart Exec (or call it AmigaOS Kernel) is using shared memory for its APIs, writing to some system structures requires some kind of lock mechanism (forbid, permit) a concept that would be a risk or extreme performance issue to real SMP.
You can change it but lose compatibility to all programs using the API.
You can change the the system APIs for not using shared memory and lose compatibility.
After this changes you can add full memory protection

And after this changes you have turned the Amiga Exec into a Unix like OS., because the AmigaOS is just like a Unix system using shared memory for its APIs.

And the result would have less AmigaOS compatibility than AROS on a x86.

---

So instead of converting AmigaOS into an Unix like OS it would be easier to have an Unix like OS with an AmigaGUI. For old application you will need some kind of built in UAE

But unlike to the Mac, there are no Amiga Coders or Amiga Software companies left, who would recompile there Software for such a system. We know this because they had not done this for AOS4, MorphOS or AROS

So AmigaOS (AOS3+4, MOS, AROS) will not improve much without heavy changes into an OS with Unix like kernel. But even this change won't help them enough and it will compatibility.

---

ps.:
This was discussed many times before and most people don't understand the consequences.
There are a lot of users who can't tell the difference between the GUI and the kernel of an OS.
Changing the underlying kernel will change everything, but some people won't see it as long as this changes ore covered by a compatible GUI and a good software emulation.

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bison 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 18-Jan-2018 21:59:54
#42 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 926
From: N-Space

@KimmoK

I'm OK with 0% binary compatibility, but I'm also OK with 0% API compatibility as well. (I don't want to write Intuition programs in 2018, as fine as that was in 1988.) I only care about the Amiga-like virtues of simplicity and good design. That's pretty wide-open, but hard to define, and probably impossible to achieve consensus on.

Update: trying to compensate for message board software weirdness...

Last edited by bison on 18-Jan-2018 at 10:04 PM.

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bison 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 18-Jan-2018 22:13:40
#43 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 926
From: N-Space

@ntromans

Quote:
When CBM died I did look into moving to Linux, but after the simplicity and elegance of the Amiga was horrified at the arcane nature of it; life is basicaly too short and busy to spend time learning all the black magic you need to just to perform some simple action on it, so Linux is out for me.

I did switch to Linux (almost 20 years ago), and I didn't have to learn any black magic. I recall being frustrated at times, but never horrified.

I started out learning some Unix commands, and my way around the file system hierarchy, which is very different from Amiga's, and muddled along from there. I eventually got a job as a Unix programmer, and later as a Linux programmer, so it was a career-enhancing move for me.

Last edited by bison on 18-Jan-2018 at 10:18 PM.

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Leo 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 18-Jan-2018 22:15:19
#44 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1576
From: Unknown

Quote:

And after this changes you have turned the Amiga Exec into a Unix like OS.

I didn't know adding memory protection to any OS would turn it into some kind of Unix: that's new to me.

You seem to miunderstand what Unix is, what POSIX is, what memory protection is, etc...

These are totaly different things.

Back in the nineties, DOS could switch to protected mode which added features like paging, virtual address space,... to DOS. But that didn't turn DOS into some kind of Unix.

Btw, Windows also has memory protection: I guess that's also another Unix clone.

Also, Windows 64bit cannot run 16bit Windows apps: I guess it's not Windows anymore.

Thanksfully it's not.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

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ntromans 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 18-Jan-2018 23:22:56
#45 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jul-2004
Posts: 103
From: West Midlands, UK

@bison

Linux just felt like a step back to the 1970s to me after the elegance of AmigaOS. I really didn't have time to get into it (I'm a teacher by profession rather than an IT person), so once my A1200 stopped being useful for my work I ended up getting a laptop running Windows (actually several as I seemed to be pretty poor in my choice of qualiy hardware as the ones I chose kept dying). Anyway, the Windows owning experience was deeply frustrating, especially as the OS constantly screwed itself up and I'd be in for several hours of re-installing. Then I found AROS would boot on my then current machine, WIndows was formatted to oblivion and life was good again

Cheers,
Nigel.

Last edited by ntromans on 18-Jan-2018 at 11:23 PM.

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bison 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 19-Jan-2018 0:16:34
#46 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 926
From: N-Space

@ntromans

Quote:
Then I found AROS would boot on my then current machine

Hosted or native? If you managed to get AROS running native on a laptop, please share the details.

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simplex 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 19-Jan-2018 2:48:13
#47 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 640
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@Leo

Quote:
I didn't know adding memory protection to any OS would turn it into some kind of Unix: that's new to me.
+1

Memory protection predates Unix. But he's right that modifying the kernel would essentially give a different engine. (As if that were a bad thing.)

_________________

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paolone 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 19-Jan-2018 9:42:03
#48 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 948
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@simplex

im waiting till anyone of those constantly opting for a completely new incompatible amiga os simply take any actual step in the direction they are pointing. i ll give you another decade to think about it hard.


Just run FirendOS.

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OneTimer1 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 19-Jan-2018 14:33:02
#49 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 281
From: Unknown

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
[quote]


You seem to miunderstand what Unix is, what POSIX is, what memory protection is, etc...

These are totaly different things.


Yes, and I never claimed anything else and I didn't even use the word POSIX.

Quote:

Back in the nineties, DOS could switch to protected mode which added features like paging, virtual address space,... to DOS. But that didn't turn DOS into some kind of Unix.

Btw, Windows also has memory protection: I guess that's also another Unix clone.


Back when Kickstart1.3 (later called AmigaOS) was introduced, it had more similarities with Unix than with any other desktop OS.

Nice mentioning MS-Dos or Unix ...
System calls are made by exceptions (software interrupts, traps) you push you arguments on the stack and execute an exception.

This causes the CPU to change into supervisor mode (protected mode) and will call an exception handler in the kernel.

Now an exception handler can jump to a system function that could get the arguments from the user stack.

And this function call mechanism is working on a system with or without supervisor (protection) mode.

But AmigaOS is different not only because it has no supervisor mode and it is using a jump table. There is a much bigger problem because you need access to structs used by other processes or the kernel.

So you can't not just ad memory protection, you need a total rewrite of Exec, Graphics and everything. It would not be compatible when ready. You would lose binary and code compatibility and end up with a new but unproven system.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 19-Jan-2018 at 02:35 PM.

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bison 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 19-Jan-2018 14:49:06
#50 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 926
From: N-Space

@paolone

Quote:
Just run FirendOS

I had forgotten about them, but they seem to have moved on. friendos dot com redirects to friendup dot cloud, a web site that features such cutting-edge buzzwords as "stack", "virtual", "cloud", and everyone's new favorite -- "blockchain" -- but there's no mention of FriendOS.

I did kind of like the appearance of their window frames and gadgets.

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ntromans 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 19-Jan-2018 17:38:07
#51 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jul-2004
Posts: 103
From: West Midlands, UK

@bison

Actually g01df1sh has just started a thread on that here and my current netbook & laptop are on there here along with some others. Another place to look is of course aros-exec with a search for 'laptop'; for example, this recent thread namechecks quite a few compatable macines.

I only run AROS native, and my little AROS Samsung netbook is, I think, the best computer I've ever owned, and I'm including my A1200 in that. Also, bringing the thread back on topic, my Compaq Core duo runs the exerimental SMP AROS version (at least as far as the tests working and utilising both cores).

Cheers,
Nigel.

Last edited by ntromans on 19-Jan-2018 at 05:40 PM.

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kamelit0 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 19-Jan-2018 20:10:56
#52 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2011
Posts: 594
From: Unknown

@OneTimer1

Since AmigaOS 4.1 do have interfaces isn't it possible to have interfaces for legacy PPC binaries like for 68k and new interfaces for the enhanced API providing MP and Multicore support.

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realize 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 10:31:24
#53 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2003
Posts: 1774
From: nyc

@bennymee

lmao a link to a hyperion whitepaper... yeah buddy im sure its right around the corner.... if smp was possible without braking everything MOrphos guys would have had it years ago

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realize 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 10:34:01
#54 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2003
Posts: 1774
From: nyc

OS4 doesnt even have good usb support and no applications and you guys are talking about smp? No wonder so many left

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bison 
Re: First to SMP
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 16:34:59
#55 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 926
From: N-Space

@ntromans

Thanks for the info, but I've already been through all this a couple years ago. All of the supported hardware is discontinued and getting hard to find.

I am running AROS hosted on Linux, and this is fine, but I have not been able to get it to run fullscreen at 1080p.

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