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Srtest 
A user's approach to porting
Posted on 21-Jan-2018 18:44:56
#1 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 259
From: Israel, Haderah

Not that long ago there was a discussion about how to better use the gfx card in the AOS4.1 and I suggested a certian free vram-ram renderer called MadVR because it's open source and apparently isn't attached to any architecture. Whatever that discussion was about (video playback) it got me thinking about where can I fit in the process of porting stuff or at least finding interesting targets and maybe approaching people.

That whole line of thinking started when I purchased a turn-based role playing game called Underrail which I feel I've waited for since the second golden age of rpg's (Baldur's Gate and more). That game is isometric and looks like something that was made 15 years ago only I find it much more advanced and much more of a game than so called modern games. The question which is relevant outside of that story is about the technology that lies underneath. Because when I look at Underrail , I see an "Amiga game" which even uses windows to display its gaming ways (like Colonization did back in the day). The issue is that the technology is propriety in something like XNA so porting might be difficult (even for Linux).

The main theme still remained - what is a good basis for porting? because I find it unacceptable that the monopolistic platform of the world enjoys even what is made for the margins not just the mainstream. Even stuff like Underrail aimed at veteran gamers or MadVR aimed at home theater enthusiasts not satisfied with what evilcorp offers.

When I'm thinking about advancing this wish I come across 2 walls - one is technical and the other about approaching and representation. I call it the Ron Gilbert situation.

Why Ron Gilbert? as many of you know he's one of the main masterminds behind the Scumm engine and its games and recently released a new old school adventure called Thimbleweed Park, which similarly to Underrail, looks like it can run on our machines and oss, only it uses newer technologies. That is only one side of the issue because the other side is my ability to pitch something based on a technical understaning of it. The other wall is that even though I wish Gilbert to be a secret Amigan, he isn't. His nostalgia trip is about the first computer he used for these games - the C64. That doesn't mean I can't see any situation where he's approachable and that's why I call it the Ron Gilbert situation because if I present to him a way where a port isn't based on my wishful thinking good will towards the world of Amiga, but on requiring minimal help when the work is done by someone else then he might as well be positive about a port and it can work even if he's not a fan of Amiga.

This is where I suggest to you that we will form a team of users and potential porters (and the various technology enablers like driver writers or porters of something like SDL) so all the technical detailes of a possible port would be sorted out and if and when I make a certain appeal to someone like Gilbert it will be a serious one. I see this as something that can benefit from a collaboration between experienced users, porters and developers when every side does his thing so for example, writing a pitch would be my responsibility while sorting through the technicalities would be someone else's.

Tell me what you think about this idea. Of course every port should be encouraged to be easy to port to all Amiga variants.

Last edited by Srtest on 26-Jan-2018 at 12:17 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 21-Jan-2018 at 07:15 PM.

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simplex 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 22-Jan-2018 15:45:47
#2 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@Srtest

There are several fundamental aspects to porting.

1) Sometimes code is pure mathematics or pure information, and is thus platform independent. That's trivial to port. The proportion of this code to the total helps determines how portable a program is. I write some mathematical software as part of my job (academic research) and most of my code will run on any platform so long as I can get a C++ compiler: I write it on Linux or Mac and it compiles, then runs on the other platform without so much as a hiccup. (Though I've recently been working on parallel code, hence C++11 threads, so that limits a lot of things.)

2) Sometimes code is input/output or otherwise data manipulation, and is thus somewhat platform dependent, but not entirely. This is where you get into issues such as endianness and/or API, but the fundamental problem is really one of interface, so it's not too hard to port. But again, you can get into issues where you're manipulating data using hardware tools (e.g., GPU computation) and then you're somewhat dependent on a particular platform (e.g., CUDA programming, which is Nvidia specific IIRC).

3) That leaves most of the rest of the code. This is how you present data to the user, and is typically platform dependent; e.g., how to create a window, how to set up an independent process, how to interact with the video device in a system-friendly way, etc. I think this is by far the hardest part of porting; it is highly non-trivial, because it isn't just a matter of replacing function names: just as with human languages, each operating system has a particular way of thinking, so for instance I can transliterate an Italian, Latin, or Russian phrase into English but that isn't a translation that actually makes sense.

There are ways to get around #3 (Java, QT) but for various reasons they are seldom used, partly through laziness and ignorance frankly. But the fact that people won't even do that tells you that even there it's neither easy nor entirely reliable and, in the case of Java at least, not always as efficient as you'd like. (Though Google uses Java for Android, so it's not a completely unreasonable proposition.)

Anyway, my point is that if you could get this done it would probably be done already, but if the guy has a soft spot for retro systems you never know. But remember that in the end all these people need to make money because they have to eat and pay bills and (sometimes) raise children and the like. And this stuff takes time, and Amiga isn't something that will promise anyone an adequate return on investment of that time.

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fishy_fis 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 6:15:00
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2156
From: Australia

@Srtest

These are the very things Amiga and/or amiga-oid developers have been doing for the last decade or more. Porting libraries and dependencies for assorted open source software and then porting software that uses the ported dependencies.

As a developer I must say however that these sorts of threads are tiring, insulting and make me want to stop.
Its somewhat audacious to have people who have very few clues tell me how I should spend my time.
Just learned about ScummVM did you? How about you *not* tell people (guess what? Some of us ported ScummVM a decade ago and have updated since) who have been donating their time for free that they're organized wrong and that they need to follow other open source projects structure?

Believe me when I tell you that those who are capable and interested know this stuff so, so, so much better than yourself.
When an opportunity for software ports arrive someone, with actual clues, will be on top of it.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 6:25:50
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Srtest

this explains it for you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r8aL6xAjx4

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 11:26:00
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3512
From: Unknown

@Srtest

+1

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Britelite 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 15:44:11
#6 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 295
From: Finland

@Srtest

Quote:

This is where I suggest to you that we will form a team of users and potential porters (and the various technology enablers like driver writers or porters of something like SDL) so all the technical detailes of a possible port would be sorted out and if and when I make a certain appeal to someone like Gilbert it will be a serious one. I see this as something that can benefit from a collaboration between experienced users, porters and developers when every side does his thing so for example, writing a pitch would be my responsibility while sorting through the technicalities would be someone else's.

Translation: "I want to pretend to be contributing while someone else does all the real work"

Quote:
Tell me what you think about this idea.

Assuming you're being serious, I'm guessing you want to be the pitch man / project manager.
So, you have probably already done some research into this matter, and can answer some of my questions:

- Have you already established communication with any of the authors of the games you want ported?

- Have you already made sure they would actually any kind of interest in a port, and under which conditions?

- Do you have any technical specifications or requirements for the proposed projects?

- How are the developers going to get compensated for their work?

- How is the distribution of the Amiga-versions going to be organized?

I could go on forever, but I guess you get my point already. I suggest you do your homework and come back when you have something to present for real, and you might actually get someone onboard. Until then you're just wasting everyone's time.

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wawa 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 16:14:36
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Britelite

Quote:
Until then you're just wasting everyone's time.

nothing particular. this site has been paved with the ego-trip kinda wall of text threads containig initiatives, boiling down to encouragement for what enthusiasts would like to be arranged for them, because they know best what is good for the platform. see that other thread about "cooperation". its just what forum is good for: small talk.

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Srtest 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 17:01:25
#8 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 259
From: Israel, Haderah

@fishy_fis

Quote:
These are the very things Amiga and/or amiga-oid developers have been doing for the last decade or more. Porting libraries and dependencies for assorted open source software and then porting software that uses the ported dependencies.


Well of course they do. On that basis I wrote this piece thinking about a way a user can contribute to this effort. The way you are trying to spin this just shows me what you are all about so you can simply kiss my ass.

Quote:
Its somewhat audacious to have people who have very few clues tell me how I should spend my time.


Again, you putting words and intentions which were never expresses or had crossed my mind. This whole piece was abot offering to contribute my time and whatever I do on the web (for example) to help bridge the gap between this world and the outside one and one of the earliest conditions is that if and when any proposition to anyone is realized, it will be based on actual work and posibilites offered by porters and developers so that the original authors of said program/app/game/whatever won't see a possible colaboration with us as a hassle. Go spend your time doing whatever you want it will be much better than embrrassing yourself with such a low level of reading comprehension.

I've been using ScummVM almost since the early days of its conception since before I returned here and through years of usage and learning about it I came to those insights. This tells you nothing that benefits you? then by all means, just let me run my mouth. However, I have a feeling that you are actually scared something will come up from this and your authority-like expressions of a know-all developer wouldn't be the only source of getting stuff done. Luckily for me most of my experiences with the developers in Amigaland have been really good so your comments don't bother me personally. They should bother anyone who wishes better times in Amigaland.

Quote:
When an opportunity for software ports arrive someone, with actual clues, will be on top of it


Well, this is why I talked about examples such as Underrail and Thimbleweed park. Let's say either I'm wrong about those 2 being an example of stuff that in theory can be ported, or that I'm right and yet they portray simply something like 0.000002% percent of all the wonderful possibilites that cross your path. To that I say great - I will encourage and support anyone who will do something from the pool of "everything else I haven't mentioned" or "everything else which is serious and correct unlike my suggestion".

Last edited by Srtest on 23-Jan-2018 at 05:06 PM.

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Srtest 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 17:14:24
#9 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 259
From: Israel, Haderah

@NutsAboutAmiga

Interesting. Styg (Underrail's practically sole developer) got flak for choosing XNA for his game because it makes it more difficult for ports. Only that when I viewed what lies beneath XNA for this game and the technologies he used to create this game I didn't see anything that in theory can't be done here. The situation will always be that people are not gonna use everything that makes it easy for porters. It's just that something like Underrail or Thimbleweed park is much more viable for us in terms of waiting for basic fundamental stuff to be developed at the api or driver level. Eventually an effort will be made to bridge the gap if it would be deemed worth it. If you look at the way Qt can function across platforms (and works in an almost native way - as far user experience goes) then that way of thinking has already been given a form. Unity might be the next step only Unity awaits people who will use it and powers that be which will create our own implementation. Those examples focus more on what's beneath the hood and that it doesn't seem out of reach like those new 3d polygon heavy shooters.

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Srtest 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 17:43:49
#10 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 259
From: Israel, Haderah

@Britelite

Quote:
Translation: "I want to pretend to be contributing while someone else does all the real work"


If this is how you feel then fine. If the nature of this is that the only possible connection lies in the technical understanding of potentioal collaborations and/or the hard work of coding and porting then no harm's done. It was merely an offer and you can continue with the same old same old approach that had gotten you this far. Or, you can accept some good will and not imply about some hidden agenda. That is your culture which you are trying to cast onto me, not mine. In psychology we call it transference.

Quote:
Assuming you're being serious, I'm guessing you want to be the pitch man / project manager.


I don't "want" anything other than to see if I can get together between 2 sides which can help bring something to this little niche of computing and usage. If you don't see anything in that then fine. We are exactly at the same place we are now and those are just my words which cost no money and which don't owe any taxes.

Quote:
- Have you already established communication with any of the authors of the games you want ported? - Have you already made sure they would actually any kind of interest in a port, and under which conditions?


Like I said (and like someone who wanted to understand, would have), approaching a developer who actually did something that users wanted and created something is entirely different than arriving at someone's blog and seeing what he thinks about various matters. Like what I said about Ron Gilbert not being an Amigan but still being enough of an old school guy, that if the right offer is presented to him and which would not entail any serious involvement from him other than something like answering questions of porters, then I see him being open to something like that. It is quite simple.


Quote:
-- Do you have any technical specifications or requirements for the proposed projects?


As far as the technology of something like Underrail which was made using XNA, if what you require is for me to present this entire offer and go deeper into specifics then I'm willing to do that because the idea came to me after seeing what kind of technologies and implementations he used when he made his old school, garage programming, game. This was just a basic concept for a co-op.

Quote:
- How are the developers going to get compensated for their work?


I don't know. You can ask the very same questions of those who ported games to Linux. I didn't bank on the mere good will of developers if that's what you're implying. It's only a suggestion. Finding origins of income for developers and porters in Amigaland should be a major basis of operation, a sentiment I expressed in this forum before and right now in Amigablitter's thread.

Quote:
- How is the distribution of the Amiga-versions going to be organized?


I see even though you don't except and even find my initial offer somewhat insulting, you are still asking me about a more advanced stage. I speak from the perspective of an AOS4.1 user and I have said repeatedly, that portability and future proofing software must be a priority. Of course such a port should be made that just like the recent ports to MoprhOS, it will be easy and accessible.

Quote:
I could go on forever, but I guess you get my point already. I suggest you do your homework and come back when you have something to present for real, and you might actually get someone onboard. Until then you're just wasting everyone's time.


This isn't a pitch at a work place. This is a community member who has his ows occupations and likewise his own interests and then seeing how all of those can be intertwined with this world. Wanting me to go above that and do work is exactly like me wanting someone else to spend work thinking about a way to port or even writing some cross platform implementations from the start - it needs to be validated and done in a cohesive effort and communicatied properly so everyone are on the same page. This seems like basic stuff to me so no one will waste time, effort and resources and only take on something which is feasible.

Last edited by Srtest on 23-Jan-2018 at 05:56 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 23-Jan-2018 at 05:47 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 17:58:33
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Srtest

XNA is basically a subset of the .NET api, the problem with XNA in general is that not that popular this days. it for games, not programs. (XBOX.), XNA is general just Microsoft stuff, so might end some legal problems too.

If you wont really make difference we need look at Unreal Engine 4, its now open source, I'm not sure how portable it is, but I believe it might be possible.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jan-2018 at 06:02 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jan-2018 at 06:00 PM.

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Britelite 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 18:13:46
#12 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 295
From: Finland

@Srtest

Quote:
Like what I said about Ron Gilbert not being an Amigan but still being enough of an old school guy, that if the right offer is presented to him and which would not entail any serious involvement from him other than something like answering questions of porters, then I see him being open to something like that. It is quite simple.

You know, how about you first get in touch with the author to see if they're actually interested in anything you suggest. THEN you can start ironing out details.

Quote:
As far as the technology of something like Underrail which was made using XNA, if what you require is for me to present this entire offer and go deeper into specifics then I'm willing to do that because the idea came to me after seeing what kind of technologies and implementations he used when he made his old school, garage programming, game.

XNA isn't available on Amiga, so a it wouldn't be a matter of doing a port, but actually rewriting a game. In this case a lot more detail is needed. What are the hardware requirements of the game (you know, to make sure it's actually feasible to even start working on)?

Quote:
I don't know.

You need to figure it out.

Quote:
You can ask the very same questions of those who ported games to Linux.

But you're not talking about porting games to Linux.

Quote:
I didn't bank on the mere good will of developers if that's what you're implying. It's only a suggestion. Finding origins of income for developers and porters in Amigaland should be a major basis of operation, a sentiment I expressed in this forum before and right now in Amigablitter's thread.

You need to figure this out, and that's why you should've already have contacted the original author of said games. To see what their conditions are for handing out their sources. Maybe they want money for the sources? Maybe they need you to promise a certain amount of sales (considering these are commercial games)?

Quote:
I see even though you don't except and even find my initial offer somewhat insulting, you are still asking me about a more advanced stage.

Of course I do, I want to make sure you have a clue about what you're suggesting. And I want to know that you've actually given this whole thing some actual thought, or if you're just spewing random nonsense.

Quote:
This isn't a pitch at a work place.

I know, this would've been a terrible pitch at a work place.

Quote:
Wanting me to go above that and do work is exactly like me wanting someone else to spend work thinking about a way to port or even writing some cross platform implementations from the start - it needs to be validated and done in a cohesive effort and communicatied properly so everyone are on the same page.

As you're not doing any of the development, you need to show that you're useful for at least something. So what exactly would your role be? How can anyone commit to your suggestion if we don't have any details? You need to at least have some groundwork done, even if just a simple email to the authors of the games you want ported asking if they're at all interested. This isn't too much to ask, now is it?

Quote:
This seems like basic stuff to me so no one will waste time, effort and resources and only take on something which is feasible.

So, like I said, the first step is to get in touch with the authors and ask if they're at all interested in a port to the Amiga. Before we have an answer to that, there's no point in discussing anything further.

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Britelite 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 18:18:33
#13 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 295
From: Finland

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
If you wont really make difference we need look at Unreal Engine 4, its now open source, I'm not sure how portable it is, but I believe it might be possible.

The source might be available, but as far as I know it's not open source. Not that it would really matters, as Amiga-like OS's are currently way too lacking to make it feasible.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 19:10:10
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Britelite

here it is..

https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/GettingStarted/DownloadingUnrealEngine/

Quote:
as Amiga-like OS's are currently way too lacking to make it feasible.


I think AROS and AmigaOS4 can do it with best 3D drivers that are available, but I have not tried my self, and sure there but loads of dependency and issues to fix, to make it work.

I'm not taking about AROS VESA that be just too slow, and horrible.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jan-2018 at 07:15 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jan-2018 at 07:12 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jan-2018 at 07:11 PM.

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Britelite 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 19:18:55
#15 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 295
From: Finland

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

here it is..

https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/GettingStarted/DownloadingUnrealEngine/

Like I said, the source is available but not necessarily open source. For example, you have to pay a subscription fee to be allowed to use it.

Quote:
I think AROS and AmigaOS4 can do it with best 3D drivers that are available

Don't know about AROS, but AmigaOS4 currently most definitely not.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 19:21:16
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Britelite

Have you tried?

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Britelite 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 19:22:26
#17 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 295
From: Finland

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Have you tried?

Tried what exactly?

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Srtest 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 21:01:10
#18 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 259
From: Israel, Haderah

@simplex

First of all thanks for the constructive approach. Apparently it's something which isn't a given, here.

1. I had thoughts about this from an emulation perspective. Like when you try to intercept a certain flow of information or accompany processes. This is like on the fly like something a jit does, no? which means it's also about an implememtation of resource handling and some kind of interpertation. This looks system-based stuff that deal with this on a level of sophistication. Taking an engine and trying to put it in another system, that system needs to support it. Can a project just be a stand alone? what are the parameters? because then I can go in a clear path when discussing ports. Beyond the level of it being adapted to Linux or Power. To simply see if it can be done.

2. Programming languages or architectures don't always give me the picture as far as what drives the stuff which progs use. That's why XNA hasn't deterred me in terms of a feasible port because of something about the way he implemented windows showcasing inventory. It almost looks like compositing done in an os level. From a habitat level it doesn't makes sense. I get that because something like Unity is built for that. Using the same approach to data being manipulated by hardware (like old school adventure games were remade using the more modern adventure game studio) allowed recreations by mimicking the same behaviour.

1 + 2: I guess I'm not thinking about a programming language or an engine because that's something that seems to me, needs to be built from scratch, seeing as we don't have more different languages or the fact people use different engines. As far as having a possible place in what I suggested it is more hardcore.

3. The language example is perfect because the translation services online treat translations like an engine... only for an engine to work it needs to be efficient. If I can act as a so to speak engine of efficiency in contacting "outer worlders" then maybe building in specific cases and porting something straight up won't present a huge difference. I mean, when I look at windows displaying interactive stuff, even if the way for that to happen goes thtough something which is alien to us (at its current state like the connection between a prog and its original habitat) I still see something I do every day on an AOS4.1 os level, meaning not even an out of reach project.

My point was exactly about caliing this the "Ron Gilbert" situation seeing as he's not an Amigan and not letting that determine the possibility of a port. Like some sort of a "data" or "mathematics" in your examples which he can contribute just as is. Something like Qt would be perfect only that in the non-ideal world we live in people will just fo their stuff in what is easily available next to them. In the future that might be a possibilty seeing as drivers seem to be using Qt more and more.

Last edited by Srtest on 23-Jan-2018 at 09:05 PM.

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Srtest 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 21:03:16
#19 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 259
From: Israel, Haderah

@AmigaBlitter

Thanks man. This post has been brewing inside me for quite some time and your post openned the right window into introducing it. You can view this whole thing as trying to add another dimension to your concept.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A user's approach to porting
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 21:48:32
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@Srtest

So this show you what SDL do...



SDL provides a common API, that is the same for all programs using the SDL library.
SDL support number OS libraries, this are different on different operating systems.

the good thing is that you write once, and it should compile every where, if did good job, when wrote program.

but you might write some thing for DirectX but then it only work on Windows.
or you might write some thing for Xlib then it only work on Linux,
or you might write some for Institution.library then only work on Amiga.

This might sound cool, but SDL too general, to take advantage of lot OS specific stuff, looks the same every where, SDL mostly a gaming API, you can write apps in it but look not ingratiated at with OS, most of stuff OS does is not part of SDL anyway.

XNA support XBOX and Window, so it lot less interesting from cross platform point of view.

There is also Allegro.

Anyway there lots libraries some are written for a specific OS, some are do some thing and not other things, like only audio or only graphics, and so on.

and lot software depend on many different libraries that do different things like text, arrays and window management, or icons, drag and drop, and so on, and so on.

And every thing is being updated on dally bases by some one for some project that some one is working on, in general its hell to keep every thing up to date. it is impossible task really.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jan-2018 at 09:51 PM.

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