@nomore
Quote:

nomore wrote: Who ever tries to edit video in MPEG 2 format will be in for a big suprise!

MPEG isn't really suited to editing. Good for a final product. But the pc crowd works in mpeg because a] too cheap for firewire devices, and b] don't know any better.

Since there are a lot of dependancies relating to a specific frame in MPEG video, editing is tricky. Plus there is quality loss any time you convert MPEG from one format to another, because it is compressed video. Same applies when you alter the compression ratios. May as well go to vhs for your editing.

DV is much easier to work with. No much compression, easy to edit, and can then be converted to any format you want with little, if any, loss. But the PC crowd ignores DV because USB isn't really up to the task of moving DV video around.

@IonMane

Keep in mind that 16bit float point partial-precision hints is part of DirectX9.
DirectX8 are mostly integer only programmable cores.

NVIDIA has admitted that Geforce FX?s VLIW theoretical IPC was hard to realize since they have major issues with their VLIW complier. Like ATI?s R400 series, NV40 series uses SIMD/MIMD techniques, thus creating a driver complier was relatively easy. Both NV30 and NV40 cores support 16bit and 32bit floating point formats.

The gain was higher with VLIW core but the risk was greater i.e. writing VLIW complier is relatively hard. The great VLIW experiment for NVIDIA is over.

Quote:

The ONLY thing that can be said of this video capability is that it meets minimum direct X 9.x requirements, however you try to play ANY recent game that requires the majority of direct X's functionality and watching treacle dribble down a glacier in the antartica will be faster.

That?s another issue.

With the appropriate tool, one can run DX9 code path HL2 with 16bit floating point (forced).

Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2005 at 12:46 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jan-2005 at 10:41 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jan-2005 at 10:10 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jan-2005 at 10:02 PM.

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@terminator

I think you misunderstand the meaning of my post.

That was my point entirely. Since MPEG2 video uses interframe compression, it is made up of keyframes on which subsequent frames are based around... an Athlon 2600 (in response to Hammer) or a G4/G5 will find it extreamly difficult to do editing in MPEG2.

DV uses per-frame compression, and thus is the standard for non-linea digital video editing.

Last edited by nomore on 18-Jan-2005 at 10:21 PM.

@Hammer

As I stated... anyone who tried to 'edit' an MPEG2 video will be in for a suprise because no desktop computer can cope well with the calculations required to work on a frame-by-frame bases from MPEG2 video.

Last edited by nomore on 18-Jan-2005 at 10:23 PM.

@clebin

Quote:

I don't know how you can say that Dreamweaver runs flawlessly! I assume you must be talking about 2004, but even so!

I have used Dreamweaver MX2004 on a Power Mac G5. It ran quite poorly in the first version, but Macromedia released an update for it, and it improved it significantly.

Quote:

nomore wrote: @Hammer As I stated... anyone who tried to 'edit' an MPEG2 video will be in for a suprise because no desktop computer can cope well with the calculations required to work on a frame-by-frame bases from MPEG2 video.

Transcoding is one method in manipulating MPEG2 data files e.g. crop, merge/join shrink** and 'etc'. Trans-coding involves manipulating data within the MPEG compression domain.

IF you want to manipulate a MPEG2 file with frame-by-frame bases (e.g. rip a scene from Lord of the Rings); the software editor has to mark the desired boundaries (via transcode techniques), decode it (rebuild the frames) within the desired boundary and re-encode it (the quality will be lost with repeated encoding).

An AMD Athlon 64-CG 3000+ @2.0Ghz, XMPEG (AVI writer)'s DVD decode to DVD encode yields ~26FPS to 42FPS (dependant on the scene complexity).

Alternatively, converting to DV format would be the way to go (needs plenty of hard disk space). The advantage of expandable PC case i.e. add SATA RAID card and a pair of 10,000RPM HDs (or equivalent SCSI setup).

Which one would you prefer i.e.
1. PowerMac G5 @ $499 i.e. basically a PC size tower and K8/K7-XP style processor.
OR
2. Mini-Mac G4 @$499 i.e. basically a headless laptop.

Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2005 at 12:44 AM.
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@nomore

Quote:

That was my point entirely. Since MPEG2 video uses interframe compression,

Rebuilding the MPEG frames would require decoding. There are tools that manipulate (crop/cut, join/merge, shrink//bit rate manipulation) MPEG2 files that uses transcoding techniques.

Quote:

it is made up of keyframes on which subsequent frames are based around...

I'm sure the G5 can handle frame-by-frame snippets of MPEG2 file.

Quote:

an Athlon 2600 (in response to Hammer) or a G4/G5 will find it extreamly difficult to do editing in MPEG2.

Depends on code tricks employed by the programmer.

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@Hammer
I give up. Hammer, you win the thread.

But MiniMac wants me to ask you to please pick on someone your own size next time

@nomore
Quote:

nomore wrote: @terminator I think you misunderstand the meaning of my post. That was my point entirely. Since MPEG2 video uses interframe compression, it is made up of keyframes on which subsequent frames are based around... an Athlon 2600 (in response to Hammer) or a G4/G5 will find it extreamly difficult to do editing in MPEG2. DV uses per-frame compression, and thus is the standard for non-linea digital video editing.

I understood exactly what you were saying.

MPEG records a block of data, and then all the changes, then another key frame, you need a lot more than one frame of video to do any editing. Then you need to rebuild all this again for the output.

DV uses minimal compression, since it is being done on the fly. There is no preview. The real secret to MPEG quality is analyse the raw video, make adjustments, and finally encode it, over several passes. Not in one shot.

@terminator

Quote:

MPEG isn't really suited to editing. Good for a final product. But the pc crowd works in mpeg because a] too cheap for firewire devices, and b] don't know any better.

Editors such as Ulead Video Studio 8/ Media Studio 7, Cyberlink Power Director 3.0, Sony's Vega 4.0, MS's Windows Movie Maker 2 and 'etc' are non-destructive non-liner editors. They don't affect the MPEG2 files during editing.

Quote:

Since there are a lot of dependancies relating to a specific frame in MPEG video, editing is tricky. Plus there is quality loss any time you convert MPEG from one format to another, because it is compressed video. Same applies when you alter the compression ratios. May as well go to vhs for your editing.

Refer to MPEG transcoding techniques in file format conversion jobs.

Quote:

DV is much easier to work with. No much compression, easy to edit, and can then be converted to any format you want with little, if any, loss. But the PC crowd ignores DV because USB isn't really up to the task of moving DV video around.

Why not just ignore Windows XP SP2?s Firewire support stack then?

Note, most (HP and ACER anyway) AMD based boxes has Firewire support due to VIA and NVIDIA?s support.

PS; I have played/tested with a Sony DV video camera and Windows XP-SP2 Firewire support i.e. they worked OK.

Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2005 at 02:09 AM.

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@BukkY

Ideally, a headless iMac G5 would be nice...

An ASUStek PPC970/IBM 925 NB/NVIDIA's MCP SB mainboard would be fine too (leaked primary manufacturer for incoming Apple's Powerbook G5).

Have you notice that, there's a potential for a renewed PowerPC based mainboard clone war e.g. Foxconn/Leadtek Vs ASUStek/ASRock? All it needs is an emperor (consumer OS candidate) to sit on top of it...

PS; Apple's QuickTime Pro 6 uses transcode techniques for MPEG2 manipulation.

Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2005 at 02:05 AM.

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@evilrich

Quote:

evilrich wrote: People seem to be missing the point. The Mac Mini isn't aimed at tech geeks - the kind of people who build their own systems, want the fastest gfx chipset available, etc. It's aimed at the average punter who's fed up with Windows and wants to try something different but has previously balked at buying a Mac because of the price. . . . . . . . . . Would I recommend an A1 and OS4.0 to my parents or to my father-in-law. No. Of course not. We're a long way from that point. But I would heartily recommend a Mac - especially now there's an affordable option in the Mac Mini. In short: AmigaOS 4.0 isn't ready for Aunt Tillie, my parents or my father-in-law. OS X is. And, IMHO, the more people that adopt the Mac, the better; the more people that see that there is a viable alternative to the Wintel hegemony, the better. Cheers, Rich

I heartily concur . . . . I pushed for my wife to acquire an eMac some 12 months ago!
GAH! Had to keep our household 'Spawn-of-Gates' FREE!

_________________
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@Hammer

Quote:

NVIDIA has admitted that Geforce FX?s VLIW theoretical IPC was hard to realize since they have major issues with their VLIW complier. Like ATI?s R400 series, NV40 series uses SIMD/MIMD techniques, thus creating a driver complier was relatively easy. Both NV30 and NV40 cores support 16bit and 32bit floating point formats.

ETC.

This is all besides the point, the fact of the matter is that the solution you mentioned cannot run recent games in a decent resolution at a decent framerate, and THAT is the only thing that matters for a gaming box. Why this is is really another issue, and so you may as well give up on it and admit that the 64MB 5100 can't do that job and move on.

Another point about your comparisons is the size of the case and packaging.You "cheap" examples use the standard atx boxes that are many times more massive than the mini mac, and as such the examples offered are NOT a valid comparison between the two systems, except as a pure price/performance point comparison.
The fact that the mini mac is much smaller device than the units in your example is a very tangible advantage that is difficult to put a dollar sign on.

If you really want an accurate comparison, find a box that is within 10% of the volume of the mac-mini and compare these two systems as, after all, someone who is considering the mac mini is unlikey to be looking for it's expandability AFTER purchase.

Your comparison is more like comparing a watch to a clock.They may do the same thing, the clock may even be considerabley cheaper, but you are going to look like a foll with a clock on your wrist.

_________________

Quote:

Ideally, a headless iMac G5 would be nice... An ASUStek PPC970/IBM 925 NB/NVIDIA's MCP SB mainboard would be fine too (leaked primary manufacturer for incoming Apple's Powerbook G5).

Yeah it would be nice....though sperating the case from the screen of an iMac may be problematical....








Still, if the new powerbook rumour is true, with decent capabilities beyond the cpu at a reasonable price, that would be even nicer.

_________________

@IonMane

Quote:

This is all besides the point, the fact of the matter is that the solution you mentioned cannot run recent games in a decent resolution at a decent framerate

Define "decent resolution". I didn't state that it would run a specific resolution.
FX5100 would run most other games that are not "tech demo" games.

Games such as ?Lord of Rings Battle for Middle Earth?, ?Starwars Battlefront?, Knights of the Old Republic, ?Ground Control II?, ?Need for Speed Underground II?, ?Max Payne 2?, ?Tribes Vengeance?, ?Unreal Tournament 2004?, "Sims 2" and 'etc' would able to run on FX5100 (basically a down clocked FX5200).

At least Geforce FX5100 is better than graphic card that was bundled with DOOM3 bundle (refer to Australia?s Harvey Norman** Geforce 4 MX 4000/DOOM3 bundle offer).

**Austrailia?s Walmart clone.

Quote:

Another point about your comparisons is the size of the case and packaging. You "cheap" examples use the standard atx boxes that are many times more massive than the mini mac,

Refer to Apple's Flagship PowerMac G5 if medium-tower concept was wrong.

Quote:

and as such the examples offered are NOT a valid comparison between the two systems, except as a pure price/performance point comparison.

Internal expandability beyond external devices i.e. a feature found on Apple's flagship PowerMac G5.

Quote:

The fact that the mini mac is much smaller device than the units in your example is a very tangible advantage that is difficult to put a dollar sign on.

It's a matter for the consumer to make this judgement. Building small or medium or large computers is not a major technical issue i.e. it?s a matter of priority given by its manufactures and its intended consumers.

IF the object is tangible then one should be able place a dollar sign on it.

Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2005 at 06:38 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2005 at 06:35 AM.

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@IonMane

Going for $599 target with a DVD Burner for both systems.

Reconfig HP shop for games.
------------------------
Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Home Edition with SP2
AMD Athlon(TM) XP 3000+ operating at 2.0GHz
256MB DDR / PC2700 (1 DIMM)
40GB Hard Drive
Double Layer 16X DVD +/-R/RW drive
9 in 1 Card Reader, 3 USB, + Front Audio Ports
256MB DDR NVIDIA GeForce FX 5500, DVI & TV-Out
Compaq Keyboard & Scroller Mouse
Microsoft(R) Works 7.0/Money 2004/MSN Encarta Plus
------------------------
Total: $589.99

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@IonMane

Quote:

Yeah it would be nice....though sperating the case from the screen of an iMac may be problematical....

The PC world wouldn't see that as a big issue. But for existing Apple iMac user, this could be an issue.

Remember, the Mac cloners build their Apple box mostly like a PC, thus thier rapid market share gain over the genuine Apple box (at a given price).

IF the Mac cloners exist, can the current Apple administration fight them in a perpetual clone war?

Which customer base is Apple trying to entice?

Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2005 at 07:15 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2005 at 07:13 AM.

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@Hammer

MPEG2 video is not suitable for editing because the complexities of working out the contents of a particular frame. I'm not talking about transcoding here, which is simply converting from one compressed format to another, such as DVD ripping. I'm talking about video editing in a non-linear editing suite such as Final Cut or Premiere.

MPEG2 is made up of three types of frames. I, P and B frames.

I frames: These are Intraframes. They are keyframes which hold the whole frames worth of information in a compressed state (similar to JPEG)

P frames: These are Predictive frames. They contain only partial information. That is information which has changed since the previous I frame, and from the previous P frame.

B frames: These are Bidirectional frames. These use the P frames on either side to calculate their contents.

A frame sequence would be something like this: I-B-B-P-B-B-P-B-B-P-B-B-P-B-B-I

In order for an editing program to cut the video, and start from the 5th frame of this sequence... the program has to do a lot of work to figure out what the contents of that from should be based on the previous I, P and B frames.

DV video sequence would look like this: I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I etc.

This shows how the editing program can cut straight to the 5th frame of the sequence because all the data for that frame is already there. There is no calculations to do.

So in regards to your original post about the Athlon 2600 and editing MPEG2:

Quote:

Quote: Video editing (including HD), In basic terms; "HD" only refers to resolution. The speed of I/O plays an important part in this. HD MPEG2 handling is not an issue with this Athlon XP 2600+.

This isn't going to happen at a useable speed on an generic processor.

Last edited by nomore on 19-Jan-2005 at 09:53 AM.
Last edited by nomore on 19-Jan-2005 at 09:52 AM.

Anyone in the US want to try and win a Mac-Mini ?

http://www.byodkm.net/scripts/show/11-A_BYODKM_NET_Welcome_Contest.html

Unfortunately for us it is only for US residents

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@nomore

Quote:

So in regards to your original post about the Athlon 2600 and editing MPEG2:

Note, my comments on "Athlon XP 2600+ and editing MPEG2" is covers "non-destructive, non-linear editors" since end result can be a MPEG2 file. For example, using Sony?s Vega 4.0 editing HDTV MPEG2 source and resulting a DVD MPEG2 file.

Refer to 1997 paper from Hewlett-Packard Laboratories's MPEG Transcoding http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Susie_Wee/PAPERS/hpidc97/hpidc97.html

Quote:

However, the use of these compression algorithms often make other processing tasks quite difficult. For example, many operations once considered simple, such as splicing and downscaling, are much more complicated when applied to compressed video streams. ... More recently, we have developed interframe (video) transcoding algorithms for temporal mode conversion to I frames, splicing, and reverse play.

HP?s 1997 supported CPUs are PA-RISC and Intel Pentium Classic ~166/200Mhz.

Example of MPEG-2 bais software is
http://www.softdepia.com/m2-edit_pro_download_506.html
http://www.mediawaresolutions.com/framesets/3editxpress.html

Quote:

Features and Benefits ? Native MPEG domain editing for speed and image quality

What happened to your sense of programming code with algorithm tricks?
One can learn from Apple?s ?Think Different? mantra. Remember, Amiga use to have ?ace? programmers with talent and the ability to write code with trickery that confounds the skeptics.

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