@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote: @AmigaMac ...they would need to buy a board specifically for OS4. If those boards are sold in nice "Amiga" branded boxes with some bundled extras to sweeten the deal, I don't see much of a piracy problem. Yes, there would the the penny pinchers who buy bare boards to save themselves a few bucks, but then all Hyperion has to do is say they will not support OS4 unless it's run on an amiga-branded machine. ...

Yes - or they just have to release a specification like the Zico-specification.

They would just have to say that OS4 runs on this MoBo with this graphics card, that soundcard and that network card.

If someone buys different hardware there is no guarantee that he will find drivers for it...

In my opinion the same is already valid for the current OS4 - PCI-support.
There is absolutely no need to support every piece of hardware that can be plugged into an PCI-slot.

From my point of view it would be sufficiant to support e.g. one certain low-end sound card, one mid-end soundcard and one high-end sound card (the same for all other popular and possible devices).

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Dandy
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@T_Bone

Again, comparing Amithlon to Amiga OS 4.0 is a massive insult to the dozens of developers who have spent 3.5 years reworking the 3.9 source-code. We could have released an Amithlon like solution sometime in 2002.

OS 3.9 is very primitive compared to OS 4.0.

OS 4.0 also lacks in quite a few areas which were already identified for future updates but there is simply is no comparison.

Anyway, it's pointless to argue with armchair economists. Need I remind you that anyone was and is free to license AmigaOS to produce an AmigaOS x86?

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@jorkany

If you believe we intend to produce something like Windows XP or indeed LongHorn, wake up and smell the coffee. We don't have the money nor the intention to do so.

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@EyeAm

Quote:

This means Amiga Inc. itself is handling the future versions, beyond "4.0". I'm sure they're already working on that right now.

And you and me are dating hot chicks! All they got is AA which might be a bit patched now.

Coder

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@Hyperionmp

Quote:

We could have released an Amithlon like solution sometime in 2002.

If you could have I think you should have.

But how, if the JIT was not anywhere near finished/ready back then?

@Georg

>But how, if the JIT was not anywhere near finished/ready back then?

If you're talking about x86 and petunia, then wether petunia was ready or not has nothing to do with it since it is strictly ppc based and does not run on x86 ready or not. For x86 an other Jit solution would have to be found.

/Björn

@Hyperionmp

Quote:

Hyperionmp wrote: @T_Bone ... I'm afraid you are somewhat misguided here. First of all, there would be nothing to discuss in terms of OS 4.0 if Hyperion hadn't taken on the task of developing it. You are presupposing that somebody would have stepped up to the plate to develop a real OS 4.0 (and not a souped up emulator running 3.9) for x86. Trust me, there were no takers. ...

Hmmmmmmm - most likely I don't know the full story - but as far as I remember, initially Haage&Partner were meant to do the job to port the AmigaOS to PPC, before AInc displaced Petro Tyschtschenko and Haage&Partner.

And I have a weak remembrance that there had been talks about taking MorphOS as the new Amiga-PPC-OS.

I never fully understood these stories - but at least it appears to me as if there very well had been other potential "takers", *BEFORE* Hyperion stepped in...

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

"Don't know full story"

"Weak remembrance"

I rest my case.

_________________

@T_Bone

Quote:

The installed base on an x86 based OS has vastly greater potential than the 2000+/- Eyetech has been able to manage, and who knows how many boards Eyetech will decide to make in the future. Developers wonder, then they leave for greener pastures.

For Windows, yes. For anyone else, no.

Besides, since you obviously didn't: Read my post again. I did not say PPC is better than x86. In fact, I didn't even mention PPC. I just said that it doesn't matter whether you have an x86 or no, porting software to AmigaOS isn't all about the CPU. This is only a minor part.

Of course, you use this again to convert this thread into the stupid old x86 vs PPC discussion again... Ok, so be it... here's my opinion on this again.

Quote:

If AmigaOS were x86 based, would developers have to wonder if the installed base had a cap to it, as it seems to now

Yes, they would. Because everybody would use Windows, anyway. The idea of having Amiga developers compete against Windows is ridiculous. If people don't get software for AmigaOS, they use the Windows counterparts. Add to this a Windows emulator running on AmigaOS/x86, and you basically kill every commercial software development. See Linux: Wine basically killed off the whole Linux games market. There are next to no Linux games compaines left. Hyperion used to do Linux ports, as well as Loki (a very big company, mind you), Tribsoft, etc.

So where's your miraculous software flood for Linux, which is surely much more wide spread than AmigaOS ? Sure, there's a lot of open source development, but that is something unique to Linux since it's influenced by Linux' very own open source mindset. You won't get that on any other OS.

FYI, our Amiga games outsold every Linux game by a factor of 1 sold Linux copy per 10 sold Amiga copies. So your logic seems flawed.

In other words, the whole x86 discussion is based on a myth. PPC or x86 will not change a single thing, right to the contrary, it is our firm believe that moving to x86 is suicide.

Now, somebody probably wants to bring up Apple again, and their recent move to x86. To this, I can say two things:

1. Apple has announced this; they have not yet made that move. Before you applaud Apple, let's see where it leads them. In two or three yeards time, when Apple's x86 machiens are out, THEN you can judge the value of the move. If they are doing fine with their machine then you can say it was the right decision. But they might as well have dug their own grave.

2. Apple already has a name, and a competitive OS. Everybody "knows" that Windows sucks and OS X is better (Just visit /. and you'll know ;). So Apple actucally has a weapon to attack Windows. Still, they are IMHO subject to the same problem, namely that people will try to boot it alongisde Windows, either through emulation or genuine booting. Some software that would be made available to Mac OSX will not be done because of this.

Well, whatever your beliefs in the everlasting, neverending x86 vs PPC debate, only time could really tell whether you're right or wrong. Hyperion had it's own experiences on the Linux market. Other examples of faliure are everywhere. Steven Jobs himself already killed off NextStep by going away from their own hardware to x86 (and now, he might fry NextStep a second time). Be failed. Linux isn't a market, no matter what the enthusiasts tell you (FYI, a "market" is something where you make money.. the amount of people using it doesn't mean anything if nobody buys software).

And I'm not going into things like the embedded market, in wich x86 has no meaning whatsoever.

Well, this whole thing has been discussed ad nauseam, and still people come up with it again and again. Hyperion made it's decision based upon _EXPERIENCE_ in this field. Something that most of you x86 supporteds can't claim to have, especially since all your arguments are easily dispelled. This discussion is utterly fruitless, and I'm not going to discuss this any longer. NO ONE has ever come up with a conclusive argument for x86, and I have my doubts that someone ever will.

Note please that I'm not officially speaking for Hyperion here. This is my own opinion, but it widely corresponds to Hyperion's opinion.

Draw your own conclusions, but know that I will not discuss this again. I'm really sick and tired of this discussion.

End of discussion for me.

_________________
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"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote: If this is true and if you can arrange a meeting regarding that subject, please let me know. Public or PM, either way.

Here ya go: Garry@amiga.com,
Fleecy@amiga.com, Randy@amiga.com

I don't believe they reply much to email these days.

@AmigaMac

Quote:

AmigaMac wrote: If I'm not mistaken, Amiga Inc. will be concentrating on 5.0 and beyond, leaving 4.0 and its successors (4.1 thru 4.9) to the AmigaOne partners. Of course Hyperion and crew will have to elaborate on this. I'm only speaking from what I have heard (or thought I heard).

That's what I thought at first; but, then, I went back and re-read the new website portions (of which I quoted), and technically, it doesn't mention a "4.x line" or "OS 4 series", just "4.0". Legally, I would have to assume "4.0" only.

@Coder

Quote:

Coder wrote: And you and me are dating hot chicks!

I am gay, so that isn't very likely.

Quote:

All they got is AA which might be a bit patched now.

AA=AmigaAnywhere (aka AmigaDE), formerly 'The New Amiga Operating System'(tm), but then "We have changed NO plans." Yeah, you're probably right, actually. But it's apparently running on something, what with the new partners and all. Just haven't heard about how many millions of 'niche' devices. Maybe we'll get an Executive Update soon and tell us just how well the market penetration is going, regarding AA.

A new OS... Maybe they are, maybe they aren't; maybe the writing on the wall with IBM at an Amiga show (talking about Cell) is a clue to a 'maybe something else entirely'.

Last edited by EyeAm on 27-Jun-2005 at 11:28 AM.

@EyeAm

Quote:

I am gay, so that isn't very likely.

Still I see this happening sooner then Amiga Inc. working on something great.

Coder

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@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote: @CodeSmith ... Joe Industrialist? Industry customers have other priorities. For one thing, a mass market deal will not cost $800. Secondly, there are other factors than initial cost - PowerPC's low power consumption and heat make it ideal for larger server farms.

Yes, but working as an Sysadmin for an worldwide acting, big automotive company I can assure you that it is an *REQUIREMENT* that these maschines are able to run Linux *FLAWLESSLY*.

No industry customer would ever buy an A1 for his server farm, unless Linux runs flawlessly on it *AND IS SUPPORTED* by the manufacturer.

No industry customer would ever buy an A1 for his server farm just to run OS4 on it (no offence intended!) without all the applications he needs for his daily business.

Didn't Alan Redhouse say that they will not support Linux on A1 or did I get this wrong?

With his statement in mind I really don't see where you take the optimism from that there will be orders for the A1 from the industry in numbers worth mentioning...

Last week we had an "Automotive Innovation Electronics Fair" here in our plant where IBM and Freescale attended beside others.

I had to deal with their managers and after the meeting I asked one of the Freescale managers by interest, if he incidentally had heard about AInc's plans for the embedded market.

To my big surprise he really answered that he had heard some rumors about that, but was doubting that they could "get a foot in the door" of the embedded market regarding automotive usage, as others already are big in these fields.

He said the only chance for Amiga he is able to imagine is in the multimedia sector - but there are as well other competitors that were quicker than AInc&partners and already have their market shares. It would be quite hard - if possible at all - for them to gain ground in these areas.

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Dandy
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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Coder

Quote:

Coder wrote: Still I see this happening sooner then Amiga Inc. working on something great.

One is entitled to his/her perceptions, naturally.

@EyeAm

They have AA 1.5 now as it seems. And they have some other stuff they announced. It did not take off 5 years ago so why would it now? In all those years they had some gamepacks. Sure they will do everything different now. Right now the biggest problem is software. There is not much software for it. Buy hey Amiga Inc. believes they got a winner this time with AA so let them dream. They will wake up sooner or later and see it's not going anywhere.

Coder

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@Orgin

Quote:

If you're talking about x86 and petunia, then wether petunia was ready or not has nothing to do with it since it is strictly ppc based and does not run on x86 ready or not. For x86 an other Jit solution would have to be found.

No. Hyperionmp is talking about an Amithlon-like aproach on PPC (A1). Ie. basically have all of the 3.9 OS still 68k running with a 68k JIT on PPC.

Bernie Meyer says he had such a similiar thing (~PPC Version of Amithlon) running (and has shown it running to others) two years ago on Pegs and some Mac. But his JIT is written in C and apparently easier/faster to develop (and port from x86 to PPC) than Petunia which is in assembly which I suppose might possibly have some speed advantage but also takes longer to code and debug.

@glokraw

Quote:

glokraw wrote: @Helgis ... that Hyperion slave away at OS4 for a few hundred 15 year old cyberstorms and blizzards as their sales target, simply defies reality, logic, and common sense. ...

1) Some posts earlier in this thread it had been mentioned by "Hyperionmp", that there had been sold between 6000 and 10000 PPC accelerator boards:
Quote:

Hyperionmp wrote: ... Hyperion also doesn't need any lectures from anybody on customer support because one of the reasons for going PPC is exactly because of all these thousands of people paying good money for PPC accelerators. Between 6000 to 10000 if you must know.

To me this appears to be significantly more than "a few hundred"...

2) 15 year old cyberstorms and blizzards?
You're exaggerating excessively!
For your information:
I bought one of the very first ever sold Phase5-CyberstormPPC boards on the first day they were first-time publically available:
On the Amiga fair 1997 in Cologne.

If I didn't unlearn to calculate, this means the CSPPC are best 7 1/2 years old (the Blizzards even younger, as CSPPC was availabe first, IIRC), and not 15 years!

Please stay with the facts/truth - we already have enough confusion here!

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Coder

Quote:

Coder wrote: They have AA 1.5 now as it seems. And they have some other stuff they announced. It did not take off 5 years ago so why would it now? In all those years they had some gamepacks. Sure they will do everything different now. Right now the biggest problem is software. There is not much software for it. Buy hey Amiga Inc. believes they got a winner this time with AA so let them dream. They will wake up sooner or later and see it's not going anywhere.

I agree with you there.

@EntilZha

Quote:

Yes, they would. Because everybody would use Windows, anyway. The idea of having Amiga developers compete against Windows is ridiculous. If people don't get software for AmigaOS, they use the Windows counterparts.

How many OS4 users do you think/estimate have an additional PC?

Do those rules apply to them as well (boot into Windows and run Windows app counterpart) ?

Is "compete against Windows" danger magically disabled for OS4 users who have both an A1 and a PC?