@matthey

Quote:

so why does My Retro Computer Ltd and the new Commodore want to put Amiga labels on their x86-64 hardware with Linux?

I don't know... why does AmigaKit want to put the Amiga labels on their ARM hardware with Linux?

_________________
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@thread

What I still don't know:

- do they want to produce / market own C= labeled products?
- do they just want to provide licenses for C= inspired products?
- will they provide licenses for everyone who wants to sell C= labelled products?

@cdimauro

Quote:

see. It shows where the best engineers were working.

CSG's LSI team is responsible for the ViC-20/C64 product line, which largely sustained the Commodore group until the Amiga's revenue-generating takeover.

From the book, CSG's LSI team lost a key engineer for SID, and it would take about a year to learn the SID design, hence CSG management decided to copy-and-paste a second SID to create a stereo SID for the C65 project. The brain drain is real.

Commodore management kicked out the original Amiga graphics engineers while keeping Paula's engineer, who later designed the Mary chip.


Quote:

I don't share the same opinion: he was the one organizing the meeting to start the next Amiga chipset.

Herni Rubin's action is too late due to the upgrade path indecision, and AGA R&D was started in 1989 due to C65's corporate politics.

In comparison, ET4000AX was released in 1989, and Tseng Labs was already deep in the R&D phase for ET4000/W32's 1992 release.

Quote:

As you stated, Commodore was busy with A LOT of projects in parallel: the "hires chip / productivity mode" was just one of them.

You missed the context e.g., focusing A2000's addon cards, network cards, x86 bridgeboards, AMIX (led to another C900 debacle), genlock devices, printers, yet another mouse, yet another A250 start (A300/A600 wasn't the 1st), CDTV, Amiga laptop, and many more. The book mentions engineers being spread too thin.

Rubin wasn't focused on Amiga core graphics R&D. AGA R&D commitment was forced by C65's corporate politics i.e. can't have "low-end" C65 being better than OCS/ECS Amiga.

Quote:

You should read between the lines, extract the key information, and draw the lines between the dots. Here we know that Rubin was advocating the next chipset, and that his engineers weren't even able to decide on which direction to go.

Needs competent leadership to make a committed decision. Similarly ranked engineers wouldn't be able to order other engineers i.e. it's a chaotic mess.

It needs "Dear Leader" like Jen-Hsun Huang.

Quote:

Plus, they had no clue on how the Amiga chipset really worked, and that's why they are talking about the "can of worms".

No, you should read between the lines. As a leader for the custom ASIC business, Herni Rubin doesn't match Jen-Hsun Huang's ASIC engineering competency from AMD microprocessors and LSI Coreware (MIPS family, which powered PlayStation 1).

Neither Intel's nor AMD's founders (IC engineers from Fairchild Semiconductor) were incompetent like Herni Rubin.

For Sony's PlayStation 1 leadership, Ken Kutaragi designed the SNES's DSP. You can not say the same for Commodore's leadership.

Most of PS1's ASIC design was done by LSI and Toshiba, but a competent leader is required.

Again, Herni Rubin's action is too late due to the upgrade path indecision. Herni Rubin was replaced by an incompetent Bill Sydnes (system integration like the IBM PC's copy-n-paste, not a custom ASIC-level engineer).

Quote:

Whereas the LSI team not only was able to understand it, but in ONE YEAR was able to reproduce part of the Amiga technology and even extend it.

What you missed is the time lost from learning Amiga technology.

C65 started from 64 colors, which is 6 bitplanes, which later evolved into 256 colors with 8 bitplanes. C65 itself is plagued with bugs.


Have you factored in a single engineer resource bottlenecking three projects(i.e. ECS Agnus B, AAA Andrea, and C65)? Hint: Commodore HR didn't hire enough experienced IC engineers.


From Commodore - The Final Years,

The second reason was that Commodore was taking on too many
projects. James Redfield complained that his staff, especially Victor
Andrade, was spending too much time cleaning up problems in the
4510 and ECS Agnus chips. Andrea development was essentially
suspended until those other two chipsets were in production


There wasn't enough "Victor Andrade" fixing custom ASIC bugs.

C65 reached production-ready status around December 1990. AA3000+ reached bootable state in Feb 1991.

Quote:

Last but not really least, they were needed and involved on defining the specs of the new Amiga chipset, and worked on Lisa.

On display technology, the results speak for themselves between 3DO vs Amiga.

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@matthey

Quote:

The Commodore Unix/workstation attempt was sabotaged by not producing a high end Amiga chipset

The AMIX project is just Make AT&T Great Again, focusing on the external OS platform instead of the in-house OS.

All commercial Unixes failed in the consumer market.

Apple's A/UX has a superior fusion between running classic Mac apps and Unix. The problem is the expensive AT&T license. Apple shows proven capability to fuse Unix with Mac, which is useful for the later Rhapsody (MacOS X development).

A single Unix clone (BSD) with Steve Jobs' GUI usability improvements from 1987 (NeXTSTEP) evolved into Mac OS X.

I tested both AMIX (with OpenLook) and NeXTSTEP.

AMIX/OpenLook lost the Amiga GUI look-n-feel, might as well jump on another ship.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: Next Amiga that Amiga Commore will made will be something like Amiga One. With risc cpu with new graphics made for 3d games Amiga Technologies just switch from custom risc to off the shell risc

Amiga Hombre is licensed PA-RISC with custom extensions. Hombre's PA-RISC cache structure points to a Hitachi PA/50 license. Hitachi also designed the RISC-based SuperH.

Quote:

and from custom 3d graphics to off the shell 3d graphics

Amiga Hombre targeted SGI's OpenGL acceleration. Amiga Hombre supported both quadrilateral and triangle 3D acceleration.

OpenGL has a triangle 3D system. Sun GX 3D acceleration has a quadrilateral 3D system. Sun GX 3D acceleration's PHIGS API utilizes a quadrilateral 3D system.

PHIGS was the competitor to SGI led OpenGL. Refer to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PHIGS

For the MS Windows NT 3.x era, MS selected OpenGL, which influenced Direct3D and Vulkan.

PHIGS loser list:
Digital Equipment Corporation(DEC),
IBM,
Sun Microsystems Inc,
Evans & Sutherland used an array of AT&T DSP3210 as a geometry engine.
PHIGS's X Window System via PEX.

Due to Sun GX 3D's lead designer and co-founder of NVIDIA, the quadrilateral 3D selection almost sent NVIDIA into bankruptcy, which needed Sega's rescue money.

3DO quickly change from quadrilateral 3D system into triangle 3D system with 3DO M2, which was sold to Panasonic. Similar issues with Sega Saturn's quadrilateral 3D selection.

Last edited by Hammer on 01-Jul-2025 at 01:38 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 01-Jul-2025 at 01:33 AM.

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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@OneTimer1

Quote:

- do they want to produce / market own C= labeled products?

A major part of the inspiration for all this came from MyRetroComputer (Sean and Leo). So you could argue they already have their "own" Commodore product ready to go.

Quote:

do they just want to provide licenses for C= inspired products?

Obviously they would want to expand licensing beyond their initial offering. They've been clear about that.

Quote:

will they provide licenses for everyone who wants to sell C= labelled products?

I believe that has been covered in the video and comments as well. Would they just hand out licenses to anyone who desired one? Of course not.

#6

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@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote: Quote: - do they want to produce / market own C= labeled products? A major part of the inspiration for all this came from MyRetroComputer (Sean and Leo). So you could argue they already have their "own" Commodore product ready to go.

I couldn't follow all the threads and lost track of 'who said was' but it may explain why they are talking so much about hardware.
Quote:

Quote: do they just want to provide licenses for C= inspired products? Obviously they would want to expand licensing beyond their initial offering. They've been clear about that.

There might be 2 types of products that would be 'worth' of a C= label
- hardware products inspired by former C= product (retro PCs, actual PCs, consoles, tablets, joysticks, keyboards ...
- merch, t-shirts, mugs, pens, towels, ...

but please no 'Temu' crap that makes people angry buying it.
Quote:

Quote: will they provide licenses for everyone who wants to sell C= labelled products? I believe that has been covered in the video and comments as well. Would they just hand out licenses to anyone who desired one? Of course not.

At least not for free, that's for sure

kolla Quote:

matthey Quote: so why does My Retro Computer Ltd and the new Commodore want to put Amiga labels on their x86-64 hardware with Linux? I don't know... why does AmigaKit want to put the Amiga labels on their ARM hardware with Linux?

Adding a label is easier than developing faithful and competitive hardware. It is a form of bait and switch with brands and eye candy replacing better hardware and software.

OneTimer1 Quote:

I couldn't follow all the threads and lost track of 'who said was' but it may explain why they are talking so much about hardware.

My perception of how this began was that My Retro Computer Ltd did not like paying the high royalties (20%?) to use the Commodore brand for the Commodore C64X. In the process of license negotiations, there was a feeler/offer to sell the Commodore trademarks instead. Christian "Peri" Simpson helped raise funds to buy the Commodore trademarks and became the CEO of the new Commodore business. It sounds like a new Commodore business was created instead of renaming My Retro Computer Ltd to Commodore. Whether My Retro Computer Ltd pays the 6.4% royalty like everyone else or has any ownership/control in the new Commodore business is unknown by me. I hope the seed investors received more information than the public.

OneTimer1 Quote:

There might be 2 types of products that would be 'worth' of a C= label - hardware products inspired by former C= product (retro PCs, actual PCs, consoles, tablets, joysticks, keyboards ... - merch, t-shirts, mugs, pens, towels, ... but please no 'Temu' crap that makes people angry buying it.

Computer related and "merch" are likely the primary categories that the Commodore trademarks apply to. There are likely other businesses using Commodore trademarks in other categories. I do not see how Peri is going to partition trademark use to avoid conflicts and confusion. By Hyperion/Ben logic, if the new Commodore gave a license for the "Commodore C64X", they would also have the non exclusive inferred right to use "Commodore" alone. That would make partitioning difficult as every licensee could label their products just "Commodore". This is just one of Ben's absurd big lies to openly steal the Amiga IP but the Hyperion A-EonKit criminal syndicate appears to accept Ben's absurd interpretations.

OneTimer1 Quote:

At least not for free, that's for sure

Peri never promised free use of the Commodore brand, not even for the people who invested/donated to help free it. He sold his idea as the royalties would help support the new Commodore business to revitalize the Commodore brand. At least the royalty to use the Commodore brand is more affordable now.

Quote:

matthey wrote: My perception of how this began was that My Retro Computer Ltd did not like paying the high royalties (20%?) to use the Commodore brand for the Commodore C64X.

You don't really know how much they should pay, but buying the C= brand for over 1 million seems insane to me.

@OneTimer1

Another way to look at it, not necessarily from Peri's point of value:

Eugene Van OS saved the brand and was caretaker for 15 years.

15 years of legal battles to boot.

I'm not putting a value on that, but....if he had not done this there would be no brand for Peri to buy.

#6

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@Thread

They are using the brand name for Commodore C64x and accessories.










https://myretrocomputer.com/

I'm surprised how soon they have reached this state

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 01-Jul-2025 at 05:39 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 01-Jul-2025 at 05:37 PM.

@OneTimer1

Why surprised?

We covered this earlier on this page. This product has been available for a long time.

#6

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OneTimer1 Quote:

You don't really know how much they should pay, but buying the C= brand for over 1 million seems insane to me.

Not necessarily. Let's say My Retro Computer Ltd sells 10,000 Commodore C64X computers with x86-64 hardware for an average price of $500 USD each.

10,000 units * $500 = $5,000,000 * .20 royalty = $1,000,000 of royalty

If the Commodore royalty was a nose bleed 20% and applied to Commodore C64X gross sales including the x86-64 hardware and not just the case, $1 million dollars for the Commodore brand sounds reasonable. The Commodore 64x is more affordable than PPC AmigaNOne hardware which has maybe sold 5,000+ units and about the same as V4SA hardware which has likely sold 10,000+ units. The x86-64 hardware is more competitive than the PPC AmigaNOne and V4SA hardware. The problem for the Commodore 64x is that it is the least faithful of these products with the V4SA being the most faithful but having the lowest performance do to using an affordable FPGA for the 68k CPU. The Commodore 64x relies on Commodore branding and an eye candy nostalgic case and I still question how much market penetration such unfaithful hardware can achieve. Consider the Commodore 64x kickstarter which only raised £151,168 from 538 backers.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/myretrocomputer/the-commodore-64-its-back-and-better-than-ever

This is despite deceptive marketing which can also backfire.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/myretrocomputer/the-commodore-64-its-back-and-better-than-ever Quote:

That's right! The legend has returned. Hailed as the World Record holder for the highest-selling single computer model of all time, the Commodore® 64x is going to be a hit with retro fans everywhere.

Only the Commodore 64 case has returned and the Commodore 64x is more than one model as it supports multiple x86-64 configurations and the case can house a RPi. Should RPi users request a Commodore 64pi model?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/myretrocomputer/the-commodore-64-its-back-and-better-than-ever Quote:

Commodore® is returning home and spanning generations because after all "You can do more, with a Commodore 64x!".

More propaganda using old Commodore slogans. The Commodore 64x with a 20% Commodore logo tax or even a 6.4% logo tax is unlikely to appeal to price sensitive younger generations. This product clearly targets the 50+ age group baby boomers and X gen who have plenty of money and get emotional over Commodore branding and eye candy.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/myretrocomputer/the-commodore-64-its-back-and-better-than-ever Quote:

Help us bring back the Commodore 64x by getting one for you and a friend today! ... The Commodore® 64x Ultimate model is the most powerful Commodore 64 ever made. Capable of amazing performance considering it's size. ... Commodore 64 Barebones Retail Box

This is a bait and switch deliberately confusing the original Commodore 64 and similarly branded Commodore 64x.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/myretrocomputer/the-commodore-64-its-back-and-better-than-ever Quote:

I helped bring back the Commodore 64 kickstarter t-shirt

No. Supporters helped bring back the Commodore 64x case, Commodore brand and lots of Commodore propaganda. More bait and switch.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/myretrocomputer/the-commodore-64-its-back-and-better-than-ever Quote:

Commodore Timeline (pic) ... Commodore Our Story

Another licensee of a brand pushing the boundaries of the brand owners in an attempt to gain legitimacy with the brand and lineage. Sound familiar?

https://mastodon.social/@CreatorsOfAmigaOS

Hyperion created the AmigaOS but not the original and they do not own it. Yea, the 2009 settlement agreement says Hyperion owns AmigaOS 4 but that is not the reality. The so called creators of the AmigaOS license most of the AmigaOS and that is in jeopardy because challenging ownership of the Amiga IP is forbidden in the 2009 settlement agreement.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/myretrocomputer/the-commodore-64-its-back-and-better-than-ever Quote:

While all of this was happening, I was working toward my Higher National Diploma in Computer Science at Chichester College. I decided, for my final project, to tweak an original Commodore 64 so that it could run Windows 7, Apple's OSX, and Linux. During my research for this project, I discovered Mr. Altman and Commodoreusa.

He through away the original C64 hardware and reused the original C64 case for x86-64 hardware. A computer science degree is not required for emulators which is a form of propaganda itself.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/myretrocomputer/the-commodore-64-its-back-and-better-than-ever Quote:

Early Bird Commodore 64x Ultimate £910 The Commodore 64 Ultimate can do everything that the C64 Extreme can do but faster including emulating systems up to 2010. It also has a GTX1650 graphics chip embedded on the motherboard which means fantastic AAA gaming, 3d rendering and pretty much any other graphical intense application you can think of. The Commodore 64 was once the gaming king of the world and it has a chance to shine again! Commodore OS Vision will give the user the opportunity to run original Commodore 64 games and applications. The Commodore 64 Ultimate Specs: Intel Core I5, NVIDIA GTX 1650 graphics - 4GB DDR4, NVMe 500 GB hard drive, 8GB DDR4 Ram (Expandable up to 64GB Dual Channel), WIFI, integrated 2.5� hard drive docking station (you can install a 2.5� Sata based hard drive without having to open up the case! You will be able to choose your Commodore color after the campaign in a post campaign survey. Retail $1,425 USD / £1,127

The "Commodore 64x Ultimate" became "Commodore 64 Ultimate" in another bait and switch substitution. The "Ultimate" specs are barely low end gaming PC specs even though the "Commodore 64 was once the gaming king". Even the kickstarter price is grossly overpriced which is why the Commodore brand is so important.

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/19dtfrw/how_much_should_a_good_gaming_pc_cost/ persondude27 Quote:

PC only (no peripherals): o $700-800 for a solid budget - 1080p high settings o $1000-1200 1080p ultra 160 hz. (7600x/7700x, 4060 ti) o $1500 will be a 1440p ultra, 160 hz+ (7800x3d, 4070 / ti / super) o $1500-$1800 will get you a 1440p 165 hz ultra-everything. (7800x3d, 7900 xt / 4080 Super) o $2000-2500 will get you a "almost as good as money can buy." Peripherals are usually $250-350 for a monitor (27" 1440p 160 hz IPS, which is the minimum I recommend for everyone, unless they're sticking to 1080p). KB/M for another $100, and a headset will run you $60-$120.

More of the Commodore/Amiga distorted reality field and shady businesses. The new CEO of Commodore, Christian "Peri" Simpson, is associated with these guys and promotes their products in his videos with more shady propaganda. Oddly, Peri has communicated and associated with legitimate original Commodore people that likely could help revitalize Commodore and the Amiga but more professionalism and competitive faithful hardware are required to appeal to more Commodore and Amiga fans. The famous Commodore related people in positions at the new Commodore could just be ceremonial positions used to provide legitimacy to the "true" Commodore lineage or they could actually try to revive Commodore and the Amiga. At least Bil and Jeri are far from conformists and may not work out well as pawns in ceremonial positions.

Last edited by matthey on 01-Jul-2025 at 07:23 PM.

@thread

A few more names mentioned in comments after the Part 2 video:

Here

Again names don't indicate involvement necessarily, but it's interesting to watch the list grow.
(Amiga names this time)

#6

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@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote: We covered this earlier on this page. This product has been available for a long time.

But that was from 'Commodore USA' don't knew if the license for this product / company was still valid or if it had toe be renewed.

@OneTimer1

Too big a topic and AW is in such horrid condition connection wise, I'd rather post somewhere else.

Basically Sean Donohue acquired CUSA. There should be a chapter about this on his site at MyRetroComputer.

Sean, in turn, eventually got an official Commodore license from Eugene Van OS(Commodore). As stated in the video part 1, Sean could no longer pay the licensing cost. Not an issue now.

So Peri will now have a Commodore licensed product right off the bat from his CTO and COOs at MyRetroComputer.

I hope this helps.

#6.

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@Matthey

It is a good thing you enjoy research, because AmigaDocuments has just made a major update to their website.

New documents added. Big update on recent history.

Here

Valuations added, etc. You'll have to poke around to find all that is new.

There is other news coming very soon. Stay tuned.

#6

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#6 Quote:

Again names don't indicate involvement necessarily, but it's interesting to watch the list grow. (Amiga names this time)

From Pixie's post of the https://hothardware.com/news/beloved-commodore-may-rise-from-the-ashes article, there were 18 famous Commodore/Amiga people and supporters involved.

1. Christian "Perifractic" Simpson - New acting CEO of Commodore

2. Bill Herd - Technical Advisor and Shareholder. Bill was involved in the design of the C128, Plus 4, C16 and multiple concept designs and is currently an author at Hackaday.com.

3. Albert Charpentier - Will be helping with new, as yet unannounced projects. Albert is the former Vice President of Engineering at Commodore.

4. Michael Tomczyk - Senior Advisor. Michael is the former Assistant To Commodore President Jack Tramiel.

5. James Harrison - Teach Support Manager. James was the former head of Commodore Tech Support.

6. David Pleasance - Heritage and Legacy Advisor. David has authored books about Commodore and is the former VP and Joint Managing Director of the company. He’s also the inventor of the movie tie-in bundle for the Amiga.

7. Hans Olsen - Convention Facilitator. Hans is a former Demo Technician at Commodore.

8. Tim Morgan - PR Officer

9. Jeri Ellsworth - Technical Advisor and Hardware Partner. Jeri is from TiltFive.com and sold a million units of the Commodore Direct-To-TV retro console.

10. Cem Tezcan - Visual Artist. Cen is the designer of the Commodore handheld computer concept device.

11. Dan Tootill - Visual Artist. Dan is a self described Linux guy, retro-computing and electronics enthusiast, artist and musician that’s restored and built numerous Commodore systems.

12. Marvin Droogsma - Title unclear. Marvin is well known in the retro community, has a massive Commodore collection, and is the founder of Arcadia.

13. Matt Grandis - Webmaster

14. Thomas Middleditch - Chief Creative Officer (CCO). From HBO series Silicon Valley.

15. Gideon Zweijtzer - inventor of the Ultimate-II cartridge

16. Jim Drew - inventor of the Emplant Mac Emulation Card

17. Jake Young - from Retrofuzion

18. Euan Wilcox - from mini-itx.com

19. Ron Hubbard? - British Music composer for many C64 and Amiga games

20 RJ Mical? - infamous Amiga Corporation software engineer

It is an impressive list. The pressure to develop something equally impressive will grow with the list and the Commodore 64x is not it.

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: Let's say My Retro Computer Ltd sells 10,000 Commodore C64X computers with x86-64 hardware for an average price of $500 USD each. 10,000 units * $500 = $5,000,000 * .20 royalty = $1,000,000 of royalty

This math only works if the Commodore branding is an essential component for reaching the sales volume of 10k units.

Retroputing is a capabilities driven market, where we buy devices branded MiSTer, Apollo/Vampire, and MorphOS.
Thus, given that it's just as likely for 10k units to be sold if it were branded Breadbox 64x, $1M is a million reasons why I would be looking to not use the brand.

Last edited by agami on 02-Jul-2025 at 01:24 AM.
Last edited by agami on 02-Jul-2025 at 01:15 AM.
Last edited by agami on 02-Jul-2025 at 01:14 AM.

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agami Quote:

This math only works if the Commodore branding is an essential component for reaching the sales volume of 10k units. Retroputing is a capabilities driven market, where we buy devices branded MiSTer, Apollo/Vampire, and MorphOS. Thus, given that it's just as likely for 10k units to be sold if it were branded Breadbox 64x, $1M is a million reasons why I would be looking to not use the brand.

I am not saying how many units would be sold with or without Commodore branding. I am saying that $1 million may be saved for every 10,000 units sold with branding by eliminating the royalties. There is no doubt that Commodore branding increases sales but I am not implying that it is worth a 20% royalty. I expect branding is more important for less competitive hardware and less important for more competitive hardware. The Commodore 64x used to be called My64 yet apparently is was worthwhile to pay a 20% royalty so I expect it is less competitive hardware.



There were MyVic20 cases too.