NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

Please spill the beans, what’s the drama in the Jaguar forum. Who are the fractions? Why are they fighting about? Don’t worry about going off topic, we do it all the time

Atari and Amiga have parallel issues and drama.

1. Businesses acquire IP rights by questionable means and push the narrative that they are a legitimate successor.

2. New hardware is produced using commodity hardware and cases using acquired branding that has practically nothing to do with the original hardware.

3. Web sites like AtariAge.com, AmigaWorld.net and Amiga.org are purchased to push propaganda and advertise products.

4. Additional IP is purchased and restricted to products that support these businesses and limit the competition like Intellivision and Warp3D.

5. Lawsuits and cease and desist orders are used to protect IP.

The similarities between Atari and Amiga want to be A-EonKit are mirror like. So far they have been largely unsuccessful and there is the danger of such tactics backfiring and customers avoiding and boycotting these types of businesses.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @Heimdall You probably did not know about this, but this is dramaworld.net, inclusivity invited the factions into the forum, different moderators was supposed to reflect different camps, but after a few years the moderators gave up. Quote: If I *really* wanted drama, I could have stayed in the Jaguar community - much less effort that way :) Please spill the beans, what’s the drama in the Jaguar forum. Who are the fractions? Why are they fighting about? Don’t worry about going off topic, we do it all the time to avoid drama, different forums were made for etch fraction for different amiga fans. AROS has its own forum, EAB is forum classic users use, MorphZone is place morphos users hang out, and Amigans is place for AmigaOS4.x users. Amiga.org used to be classic users, but the owners decided to change forum with CSS layout, making it hard to use on old Amiga systems. And they started pushing OS4 related stuff there. ANN.lu was closed because it was impossible moderate. Moo bunny continued as a place for anyone who did not fit in, who was thrown out the forums. In any case it used to be a lot worse.

In 5 years on EAB and the Vampire forums, I have never seen nowhere near 25% as horrible behavior as is tolerated on the Jaguar subsection of AtariAge. It's a very different world...

Nobody's going to read my detailed breakdown of what it's like there, so I gotta summ it up in a very simple comparison - let's say a Restaurant / Bar setting, where each place attracts a completely different crowd with roughly 2 orders of magnitude price difference.

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Amiga fans: High-Class Expensive Restaurant with 10 courses served on a silver platter
Jaguar fans: Cheapest Possible Bar where an 8pm puke on a table isn't cleaned till the Bar closes at 5am
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.

Both dining examples are from my own personal real-world experience. I still vividly recall the shock when I asked the waiter when does he expect to clean the puke of the vividly disturbed customer (from different group) sitting right next to me at the same long table, who simply kept starting at the pile as if nothing happened (crazy, but true).


The instinct to fit in is strong, so for a time, I did and stayed on the forums. But eventually I came to a realization that I don't really belong there regardless of amount of work I did on the platform (this was my justification to stay).

Now, I realize that all this coding work happened so that I could use those skills in AmigaLandia.
The possibilities for optimizing my ASM code here are almost endless:
- OCS
- 030
- 060
- Vampire
- PiStorm

And just last week I discovered that all the work I put into the RISC DSP/GPU Higgs compiler can be directly reused for PPC Amigas ! I just need to write a PPC603e backend (about 2 weeks of work after I familiarize myself with the ASM), and all my code could then directly run on a 240 MHz PPC (I am soooooo excited about this, actually - I LOVE messing with RISC !)


My long-term dream is to have an extremely-scalable 3D engine - where the same code will handle 2,500 MIPS of an OC'ed rPi (on Emu68) at 16.7 Mil colors and can scale down to ~1 MIPS on OCS (at mere 16 colors), which is done through simple on/off flags for all the engine features and level of detail.
I'm currently somewhere in the middle of the road for that right now...

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @Hammer None of that is going to stop someone with a suitably big axe to grind from initiating something just to create frustration. The history of development our platform is replete withe examples of such sh*tf*ckery. Creating a completely separate, non-API compatible monolith 3D driver that is trivially wrappable to allow W3D applications to run on it would seem to leave no possible avenue for this. The wrapper can be implemented "clean room", while the monolith as a separate and technically unrelated project can be worked on by anyone and everyone.

Wazp3D's Warp3D V4 and v5 reimplementation are already released to the public.

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=a124eb8e-d92c-4729-a2a2-8fbef75806c0

In Europe, the Software Directive (2009/24/EC) states that ideas and principles underlying any element of a computer program, including those underlying its interfaces, are not protected by copyright.

Although the Court of Justice of the European Union (“CJEU�) has not ruled on the specific question of whether or not copyright attaches to APIs, in 2012 in SAS Institute, Inc. v World Programming Limited (C-406/10), it was asked to interpret the Software Directive in a case where WPL had developed a competing product with similar functionality to SAS’s product.

WPL’s product permitted users to use the SAS programming language to execute commands and perform functions in WPL’s software with the same effects and outputs as if they had used SAS’s software.

WPL did not have access to the source code or object code of the SAS system. Instead it lawfully acquired copies from SAS and copied the functionality by writing its own code. WPL argued that these activities were not copyright infringement. The CJEU agreed, finding that there was no copyright to infringe: “neither the functionality of a computer program nor the programming language and the format of data files used in a computer program in order to exploit certain of its functions constitute a form of expression of that program�.


Remember, A-EON's System 54 Amiga API compatibility is a clone which is not Hyperion's AmigaOS 4.x that includes the official AmigaOS license.

Last edited by Hammer on 06-Feb-2025 at 05:22 AM.

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@Hammer

You keep missing the point. None of *those* replacements were made by anyone with past exposure to the closed W3D source code. The references to "clean room" development suggest that the IP holders think they can litigate if someone that has worked or even just seen those sources works on a *direct replacement*. It doesn't matter if they have a valid case or not, they can still snarl things up and just generally piss everyone off if they choose to. It doesn't matter if there are precedents, all that will come out during any litigation which will just make the whole thing an expensive waste of everyone's time, energy and money.

By creating an entirely new API (one functionally equivalent but not *identical* to W3D) there's no avenue for any of this. Then all you need is a super thin wrapper to map the W3D library calls to their replacements, which can be implemented by someone without any past exposure, satisfying this "clean room" requirement.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @Hammer You keep missing the point. None of *those* replacements were made by anyone with past exposure to the closed W3D source code. The references to "clean room" development suggest that the IP holders think they can litigate if someone that has worked or even just seen those sources works on a *direct replacement*. It doesn't matter if they have a valid case or not, they can still snarl things up and just generally piss everyone off if they choose to. It doesn't matter if there are precedents, all that will come out during any litigation which will just make the whole thing an expensive waste of everyone's time, energy and money. By creating an entirely new API (one functionally equivalent but not *identical* to W3D) there's no avenue for any of this. Then all you need is a super thin wrapper to map the W3D library calls to their replacements, which can be implemented by someone without any past exposure, satisfying this "clean room" requirement.

You know what ? This is a good cause and I have literally zero exposure to any of the past shenanigans in the Amiga World due to burning time in the Jaguar land previous decade.

I would be willing to write such API, but I need HW, as I can't even get the Warp going on under WinUAE.

In 2 weeks I'm flying to Europe for 3 weeks and when I get back it'd be a good time as my part-time job is very slow till about middle of May/June, usually leaving me about 20-30 hours to work on my code.

I know there's plenty people with multiple Amigas. If someone would be willing to temporarily lend one (say, for 2 months) as a devkit, that could work. I'm willing to drive ~1,000 miles from North Dakota - Minneapolis is barely 5 hours away (well, probably more now given its January now and constant winter storms are battering the Plains).

Just a food for thought...

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @Hammer You keep missing the point. None of *those* replacements were made by anyone with past exposure to the closed W3D source code. The references to "clean room" development suggest that the IP holders think they can litigate if someone that has worked or even just seen those sources works on a *direct replacement*. It doesn't matter if they have a valid case or not, they can still snarl things up and just generally piss everyone off if they choose to. It doesn't matter if there are precedents, all that will come out during any litigation which will just make the whole thing an expensive waste of everyone's time, energy and money. By creating an entirely new API (one functionally equivalent but not *identical* to W3D) there's no avenue for any of this. Then all you need is a super thin wrapper to map the W3D library calls to their replacements, which can be implemented by someone without any past exposure, satisfying this "clean room" requirement.

There's "Go Fund Me".

_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@all

FINAL HOURS TO SUPPORT 3D Driver for PiStorm 4/CM4!!!!

Please remember the PiStorm as it exists today is awesome hardware which boosts existing games and applications and has LOT of POWeR for future projects. The 3D part we aim to support will open even more doors wide for new awesome game ports and even new developed games. Even if we already achieved the goal I personally think every help will motivate massively and I don’t think it all stops with this 3D support.

Just imagine newer hardware to get support in future. We have one big problem in Amigaland. Finding capable developers to do the job.

And those few that show up shouldn’t be kicked ass.
You now what I mean.

So we as the Amiga Community should hold hands and support developers to live our Amiga dreams as long as possible and hey we did it now for awesome 40years now.

Wwwwwwwwwoooooooooohaaaaaaaaaaa

Greetz to the Amiga Community

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