@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: BTW, Intel's 80386 protected mode and VM8086 mode do NOT require that the PMMU is enabled (this became mandatory inly on x86-64/Long Mode). Source: Intel 80386 Programmer's Reference Manual (which you never opened in your life, right?). Red herring.

What I've reported it's a FACT. Again, RTFM one time in your life!
Quote:

1. The 386's MMU is important for protected mode i.e. it handles address translation, virtual memory management, and memory protection.

Absolutely false: see above. The PMMU (to be more precise) is TOTALLY OPTIONAL when a 386 is running in protected mode, EXACTLY LIKE on 286.

Hint: 386's protected mode is a a 32-bit extension of the 286's protected mode (which have NO PMMU).
Quote:

Windows 3.1 386 (Enhanced Mode) doesn't implement Windows NT 3.1's memory protection,

False again. It uses the same MILITARY GRADE memory protection which Intel introduced on 286 (which didn't required a PMMU, since... there was none on this processor!).

And it uses the same protections which NT used, but... since it had to keep the backward-compatibility with the DOS, many of those are "relaxed" (e.g.: no strong separation between processes).
Quote:

but it uses other MMU features.

Optionally.
Quote:

2. Windows 3.1 386 (Enhanced Mode) has virtual memory and virtual 8086 (for multiple DOS sessions) support. Windows 3.1 Enhanced mode runs a 32-bit protected mode virtual machine manager that runs a copy of Windows 3.1 Standard mode (16-bit 286 with extended memory via MMU)

Again, 286's had NO PMMU! Why continue to report this completely false information?!?
Quote:

virtual machine, supports multiple virtual 8086 (DOS sessions), and paged virtual memory.

Which is optional. In fact, you can disable it.
Quote:

Virtual 8086 sessions require a 386 MMU.

Again? NO! It's not required. You can have VM8086 sessions without using the PMMU.
Quote:

Windows 3.1 Enhanced mode's Win32S runs in 32-bit protected mode that interfaces with the virtual machine Windows 3.1 standard mode's 16-bit kernel. You're wrong to assert pure 32-bit protected mode with Windows 3.1 Enhanced mode.

You never understood how Windows worked, despite I've already written here sometimes, and you continue on the same (wrong) track.

So, and again, no. Win32s runs exactly as the win16 applications on Windows for 286. As YOU have reported below from Raymond Chen's excerpt (which you clearly haven't understood).
Quote:

Intel 80376 is a pure 32-bit protected mode without paging MMU support, and it's not compatible with Compaq's 386AT standard. Intel 80376's sales have flopped, and it was replaced by the much more successful 80386EX (from 1994 to June 2001). You are wrong to assert that the 386 MMU is not used. MMU is more than memory protection!

That's because if Windows detects and uses a 386, it assumes that it has a PMMU and uses it, albeit you can disable virtual memory AFTER that. That's why the 80376 isn't compatible.
Quote:

Look in the mirror with your "which you never opened in your life, right".

At least I've opened it (and many other things), whereas it's clearly evident that you completely lack knowledge and resort by googleing around desperately searching for things which you have no clue, at all..
Quote:

The 386 is an important foundation for Windows NT and Linux. You argued at the retail release, while I argued at the development phase BEFORE the product's release.

Two very well known MAINSTREAM OSes..

I repeat it again from our previous discussions), since you seem to have also problems with memory: MAINSTREAM.
Quote:

Year 2000's Windows 2000/XP (NT) and MacOS X (NextStep) foundations started after the mid-1980s,

In the meanwhile MAINSTREAM OSes were going on their own road...
Quote:

while Commodore didn't have a valid road map for in-house "modern" OS development.

Source for this?
Quote:

Commodore's next gen software effort is Making AT&T Great Again for the tiny few elitist MMU-equipped 680x0 bigbox Amigas.

If you mean the AT&T DSP, that was the usual wasted time of the INEPT Amiga engineers.

If you talk of something different, then clarify.
Quote:

From https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20100517-00/?p=14013 If Windows 3.11 required a 32-bit processor, why was it called a 16-bit operating system? It’s kind of stunning to realize that Enhanced mode Windows was really a completely new operating system with multiple virtual machines, pre-emptively multi-tasked with virtual memory. In principle, it could have created a virtual machine and hosted yet another random operating system inside it, but in practice the only two operating systems it bothered to host were Standard mode Windows and MS-DOS. (skip) How 32-bit was Win32s? Pretty darned 32-bit. A Win32s application ran in the same virtual machine as the rest of Standard mode Windows, but when it ran, the CPU really was in 32-bit protected mode. Naturally, it did all its work under the supervision of the virtual machine manager, and it had to coordinate its work with the Standard mode Windows kernel that it was sharing the virtual machine with. But when your 32-bit application was running, you were bought in: Your registers were 32-bit, your pointers were 32-bit, you accessed data in a 32-bit data segment, and you executed 32-bit instructions out of a 32-bit code segment. For Windows 3.11, a 386 MMU is required due to the hybrid 16-bit/32-bit approach. Windows 95 is the next evolution after Windows 3.1/3.11 Win32S, meanwhile Windows NT 3.x sets the future foundation for Windows 2000/XP.

Which you clearly haven't understood. There's a reason why above I've talked about PMMU, to differentiate it from MMU.

In fact, 386 had an MMU which worked... exactly like the 286 one: with the MILITARY GRADE features which were activated.

The 386 ADDED a PMMU, which is a completely different thing.

In fact (#2), the mechanism which Raymond is talking about is essentially the one which is using the (good old) MMU. As it can be clearly seen, Win32s applications run on the same "virtual machines" (pay attention to the quotes) where the Win16 applications are running.

Guess what: they used THE SAME protected mode environment & mechanisms (selectors, call gates, interrupt gates), which the 16-bit kernel of all Windows consumer products used until Windows 2000.
I repeat again for YOUR convenience: 16-bit kernel (EXACTLY like the 286 kernel. Which LACKED the PMMU --> it does NOT use it).

In fact (#3), Win32s calls were TUNNELLED to the Win16 APIs (which never used a PMMU, for obvious reasons: 286s had NO PMMU. I'm repeating it again for YOUR benefit).

Summing it up, all consumer Windows versions before Windows 2000 had:
- a 16-bit kernel;
- 32 and 16-bit applications running inside the same environment;
- 32-bit API calls tunnelled to the equivalent 16-bit ones (the opposite of what was happening with windows NT).
Everything was using the regular MMU which 286 introduced.

The 386's PMMU is used at the startup, but virtual memory can be disabled at any time. Note: "virtual machine" used by Raymond is a generic term, and does NOT refer to a VM8086 virtual machine.

Is it clear now?
Quote:

In July 1995, Windows NT 3.5, specifically when combined with Service Pack 3, achieved C2-level security certification. This certification, granted by the National Computer Security Center (NCSC), indicated compliance with the Trusted Computer System Evaluation Criteria (TCSEC) at the C2 level. This is important for the PC vendors' US government contracts and other companies that require similar C2-level security.

Very common features required and used con CONSUMER OSes, right?
Quote:

"Modern" OS doesn't appear from magic, fool.

See above, idiot! The history of Windows (CONSUMER OS) and MacOS (CONSUMER OS) shows how the things worked.
Quote:

------------------------ On the issue with Intel's 80376, https://www.techpowerup.com/330066/intel-abandons-x86s-plans-to-focus-on-the-regular-x86-64-isa-advisory-group Intel Abandons "x86S" Plans to Focus on The Regular x86-64 ISA Advisory Group. Intel's x86S is similar to Intel's other anti-PC standard initiatives that failed i.e. Intel keeps on flip-flopping. X86 world told Intel to stop flip-flopping with AVX-512 support. X86's idle power issue is with Windows NT problem when Xbox team's Windows 11 Xbox build reveals 2/3 idle power reduction without Intel's misplaced X86S. The problem is with Windows client teams that need to be changed. Microsoft Windows is part of the idle power consumption problem. The Xbox team shows that the Windows client team's Windows Home Edition is not fit for the mobility use case. https://www.xda-developers.com/steamos-destroys-windows-and-i-have-the-receipts-to-prove-it/ Existing AMD APUs effectively get a mobile performance upgrade with SteamOS. The standard Windows 11 Home edition is a dead duck on a handheld mobile. The Xbox team is responsible for the upcoming Windows 11 Xbox edition for handheld mobile devices.

Usual Hammer's PADDING...
Quote:

Quote: You completely missed something more important: the sense of what Matt reported. It's clearly evident that PA-RISC is a supercrappy architecture, since its verv very poor code density (one of the worst ever!) required TONS of caches to provide good performance. Again, 1. prove CD32 / A1200 / 3DO / PS1 / Xbox CPU + 3D geometry BOM cost objective with 68LC040. 2. prove CD32 / A1200 / 3DO / PS1 / Xbox CPU + 3D geometry BOM cost objective with 68LC060.

Hammer's non-sense AKA PADDING.
Quote:

The main priority for Amiga Hombre is the near game console price range with performance beyond any 68030.

Really?
Quote:

European game consoles don't exist

?!?
Quote:

since clowns like

Guess what: personal offences. A clear sign that you're not able to sustain the discussion, useless bot!
Quote:

you think everything is an expensive BMW.

BMW isn't expensive. You clearly have no clue of how the automotive market works!!!

In fact, margins are usually on ONE digit (as it can be seen from the quarterly or yearly financial reports). Compare it to other consumer products, which have mid-high TWO digits, or even THREE digits margins, and you can draw your conclusion about what can be labelled as "expensive".

Hint: "Expensive" and "ONE digit margin" are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE terms.

As usual, you don't know of what you talk about, headless BOT!
Quote:

https://segaretro.org/History_of_the_Sega_Saturn/Development History of the Sega Saturn/Development EGM reported that this new Saturn project was likely to use a Motorola 68030 processor. It also became increasingly unlikely that this new project would not be compatible with Mega Drive or Mega-CD software For Sega's Saturn project, 68030 was investigated before switching to low-cost/good-performance RISC options. When designing PlayStation 1, Sony was aware of Namco System 22 (with 68020 @ 24.576 MHz) due to the common Ridge Racer use case. Ken Kutaragi's meetings are dominated by hardware price vs performance debates.

Useless PADDING.
Quote:

"Price vs performance" is an important factor.

Really?
Quote:

Amiga Hombre's Nathaniel (contains CPU with custom 3D SIMD extensions and hardware-accelerated texture mapper) has 32-bit FPM DRAM and 32-bit / 64-bit VRAM support, which is important for 3D rendering. This is similar to 3DO MADAM's 32-bit FPM DRAM and 32-bit VRAM support.

And it would have miserably flopped, for the reason which Matt and me have tried to explain, and you continue to don't get.

In fact, all processors used on all other consoles that you mentioned (but even on other consoles) had MUCH BETTER processors (despite being cheap).
Even the Atari Jaguar had a CUSTOM-MADE RISC which was purely, solely, exclusively developed for the GPU. And yet it was crap!

Hombre's CPU had to do BOTH the main AND GPU processor workload using the crappy PA-RISC with only 2KB code + 1KB data cache. I repeat again: BOTH WORKS! Guess what would have happened...

In fact, how many consoles have used a PA-RISC? Care to make another of your many google searches and finally report something concrete?

But it might be a more general question: how COMMON/DIFFUSE (pay attention to the capitals) were PA-RISCs on other systems (other than the HP ones)?

I've one answer: Intel, which used PA-RISCs as the basis of its Itanium which it co-developed with HP. And we know very well what happened to it...

TLDR; as usual, you do NOT understand the context / what people are talking about, and start googling around like the headless chicken BOT that you're, trying to sell yourself like the expert which you clearly are NOT, at all.

@cdimauro

Quote:

Absolutely false: see above. The PMMU (to be more precise) is TOTALLY OPTIONAL when a 386 is running in protected mode, EXACTLY LIKE on 286. Hint: 386's protected mode is a a 32-bit extension of the 286's protected mode (which have NO PMMU).

That's false.

Hint: Use PCX V2.1 demo.

From https://ftp.fau.de/aminet/misc/emu/pcxdemo21.readme

Without 386 MMU, you will not be able to use Windows 3.11 "Windows for Workgroups".
Other programs that will not work without MMU support are: Windows 95, OS/2, QEMM, EMM386, etc

For Windows 3.1, you must use "Win /S" for standard mode (286). PCX V2.1 demo has disabled 386 MMU.

386's PMMU is TOTALLY bundled in with Compaq's 386AT standard! There is no optional 386 MMU!

Facts: Virtual memory is supported in Windows 3.1 enhanced mode's Win16 and Win32S.

Compaq 386AT standard supports both Xenix System V/386 and Windows 386. Most PC cloners followed the Compaq 386AT standard! The Compaq 386AT standard made the full 386 mandatory in the PC standards road map.

Only Amiga makes it possible to kitbash i386/i686 without MMU.

For Windows 3.1 enhanced mode, WIN.COM checks if a “386 memory manager� is already running and uses its page mapping tables before Windows takes over the memory management. WIN386 is built on the virtual memory and paging capabilities of the 386 and is much more than a mere DOS Extender! With Enhanced Mode, KERNEL/USER/GDI, Windows/DOS applications, and 16-bit drivers cannot write outside their private memory space nor in ring 0 where the VMM (virtual machine manager) and the various VxDs are running.

Windows 3.1 enhanced mode's virtual machine manager replaces EMM386 services and serves 4K pages. Win16's expected 64K segments are faked by behind-the-scenes 4K pages via 386 PMMU.

Both Win32S and Win16 have access virtual machine manager's 4K paged virtual memory system. This effectively disables segment MMU (doing nothing) and is replaced by 386's PMMU.

Windows 3.1 enhanced mode's 386 VMM and VxDs are the basis (foundation) for Win9X and part of Microsoft's 32-bit OS transition phase.

Microsoft went through its non-memory-protected 32-bit OS transition phase before ending up with C2-capable memory-protected 32-bit Windows NT. Windows 3.1's enhanced mode's virtual machine manager is designed for 32-bit 386 PMMU (4K memory pages), and most extremist 68K fanboys can face the facts.

You should look in the mirror with your RTFM.

Quote:

Absolutely false: see above. The PMMU (to be more precise) is TOTALLY OPTIONAL when a 386 is running in protected mode, EXACTLY LIKE on 286. .

WRONG. The Compaq 386AT standard made the full 386 mandatory in the PC standards road map. A road map is important.

Your argument is based on the retail release.

In your world, Windows XP is released along with PMMU-equipped CPUs in 2001, which has a major "chicken and egg" install base issue! You're fucking stuipd.

80286 MMU enables Xenix 286 and IBM OS/2 1.x (1987).
80386 MMU enables Xenix 386 (1987), IBM OS/2 2.0 (1992), MS Windows 3.1 enhanced mode's virtual machine manager (1992), MS Windows NT 3.1 (1993), and NeXTSTEP 3.1 (1993).

Any PC clone vendor who sells Compaq's 386AT clone standard can sell to the US government and any large companies with C2 considerations.

Microsoft itself used Xenix servers before Windows NT.

It's good thing that MacOS X's and WIndows XP's foundation OS releases didn't fucking follow your stupid argument! To control the present is to control the past.

You don't understand the install base and advancement.

If Commodore releases memory-protected AmigaOS 4.0 with the majority hardware install base without PMMU support, it makes you look stupid! The memory-protected OS for the Amiga's majority install base has a "chicken vs egg" issue.

It's a good thing the Compaq 386AT standard didn't follow Motorola's 68K's "to be or not be" MMU flip-flop. Remember, Linux was created on a 386 PC.

DEC StrongARM SA-110 has an MMU, and SA-110's first design win was the Apple MessagePad 2000. The road towards Apple's ARM + iOS revolution. Apple's Bob Welland designed ARM610's MMU, the same Bob Welland from Commodore. Bob Welland got his wish for a RISC CPU with MMU.

MMU-less 68000-based DragonBall VZ wasn't smart in the long run i.e. blasted from smart handheld markets by ARM 9T. Motorola's market exit story keeps repeating.

Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jul-2025 at 03:36 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 07-Jul-2025 at 12:32 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 07-Jul-2025 at 12:25 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 07-Jul-2025 at 12:12 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 07-Jul-2025 at 12:01 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 07-Jul-2025 at 11:57 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 07-Jul-2025 at 08:12 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 07-Jul-2025 at 08:05 AM.

_________________

@thread

Hyperion Entertainment files 2024 financial accounts

short version here

#6

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

#6 Quote:

Hyperion Entertainment files 2024 financial accounts short version here

Another miraculous turn around for Hyperion! They seem to have more lives than a cat. It is almost like some guardian angel investor is keeping them alive.

Hyperion financials by year in Euros
indicator | 2024 | 2023 | 2022 | 2021 | 2020 | 2019 | 2018 | 2017 | 2016 | 2015 | 2014
profit/loss 2,408 -10,102 -4,049 5,520 -6,561 1,375 150,561 -44,197 -40,024 -39,212 -68,267
debt 209,751 238,417 229,811 242,591 290,219 370,992 579,829 588,033 596,390 599,218 588,062
equity 13,766 11,359 21,461 25,510 19,989 26,551 -373,794 -524,354 -480,158 -440,133 -400,921
gross-margin 44,249 30,659 50,361 45,578 43,526 45,160 199,098 -3,372 -2,675 17 -18,521

With just 2,408 Euros of profit, Hyperion managed to pay off 28,666 Euros of debt. Timothy must be great and should be congratulated on his "major operational turnaround" of Hyperion!

I would like to know the details of the "Waarvan: niet-recurrente bedrijfsopbrengsten" on the statements which translates to "Of which: non-recurring operating income".

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/nonrecurring-gain-or-loss.asp Quote:

What Is a Nonrecurring Gain or Loss? A nonrecurring gain or loss is a one-off, highly infrequent profit or charge not arising from a company’s normal course of business operations. These one-time items are reported separately in a corporation's income statement—net of income taxes—and are excluded from earnings per share (EPS) calculations.

The Hyperion "non-recurring operating income" went from 77,201 Euros in 2022, to 400 Euros in 2023 and back to 78,281 Euros in 2024. The mysterious one-off, except for Hyperion, non-business operation related income dwarfs the profit yet I do not see any addendum with the source of these incomes listed separately. As long as there is no audit, Timothy remains great. Regulators should not care where the mysterious income came from unless it is illegal, perhaps to keep Hyperion alive and collude with them to protect the Amiga market from competition like the RGL A1200 and Mirari boards. That would never happen in Amiga Neverland with angel investors though.

Last edited by matthey on 10-Jul-2025 at 07:35 PM.

@matthey

In case this figures into your thinking:

There should have been a June shareholder meeting where the shareholders approve what is to be filed by the July deadline.

Quote:

In Belgium, annual financial statements must be filed with the National Bank of Belgium (NBB) within 30 days of their approval by the general meeting, but no later than seven months after the financial year-end. There is no explicit grace period beyond these deadlines, and late filing can result in penalties.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 10-Jul-2025 at 07:49 PM.

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

The way I read it, Hyperion still has outstanding debts of ~200k euros presumably to loans and lawyers?

So while they may have squeezed out a small operational profit they are still not profitable.

And all anyone who buys OS 3.2 is achieving is to pay off the lawyers and are not helping Amiga at all.

@dalek

We're over 1/2 way into 2025 now. So it is anyone's guess, based on the events/costs/income since January 1, 2025 whether the debt has increased or decreased.

With more court activity apparently on the way, with its associated costs, I would say those anticipated costs are certainly not in the 2024 filing.

#6

Added: In addition until the Brussels Commercial Court issues an official document we all can read, I don't see those matters and costs closed either.

the original mandate for reference

Last edited by number6 on 11-Jul-2025 at 03:24 PM.

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

dalek Quote:

The way I read it, Hyperion still has outstanding debts of ~200k euros presumably to loans and lawyers? So while they may have squeezed out a small operational profit they are still not profitable. And all anyone who buys OS 3.2 is achieving is to pay off the lawyers and are not helping Amiga at all.

Hyperion was profitable in 2024 because they made a profit but questions remain about their profitability and it certainly is not consistent. It is amazing that they have been able to pay down their debt despite low profitability or losses.

2024 - With 2,408 € profit, retired 28,666 € of debt. Non-recurring operating income 78,281 €.
2023 - With -10,102 € profit, debt increased 8,606 €. Non-recurring operating income 400 €.
2022 - With -4,049 € profit, retired 12,780 € of debt. Non-recurring operating income 77,201 €.
2021 - With 5,520 € profit, retired 47,628 € of debt. Non-recurring operating income 0 €.
2020 - With -6,561 € profit, retired 80,773 € of debt. Non-recurring operating income 0 €.

Hyperion payed off 208,837 € of debt in 2018 when they made a profit of 150,561 € off of introducing the 68k AmigaOS but the debt payed back still much exceeded their profit. In some years with losses, they still payed back debt, with 2020 looking very suspicious above. The only year that looks normal above is 2023 where it looks like someone forgot to send them a check. Maybe in 2022 and 2024, they started recording the check as non-recurring operating income because it is less suspicious than a barely profitable business paying down the debt coming due in order to avoid bankruptcy.

#6 Quote:

We're over 1/2 way into 2025 now. So it is anyone's guess, based on the events/costs/income since January 1, 2025 whether the debt has increased or decreased. With more court activity apparently on the way, with its associated costs, I would say those anticipated costs are certainly not in the 2024 filing.

I do not believe Hyperion's increasing costs will cause a bankruptcy. It is more likely they will pay off debt coming due as costs rise regardless of profitability.

Last edited by matthey on 12-Jul-2025 at 02:44 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 12-Jul-2025 at 02:43 AM.

I previously commented on the difference between buying the IP from a business vs buying the business which can be considered a de facto merger.

https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=43330&forum=16&start=420&viewmode=flat&order=0#876089 matthey Quote:

Various leaks and rumors have hinted that AmigaOS 4 is a legal mess despite Ben being a lawyer. An acquisition of Hyperion or merger with it may be one way to get around some of the legal entanglements as it would still exist even under a different name but it would likely require assuming liabilities as well. Example: Chevron is attempting to buy Hess with 30% contractual ownership of a large oil field in Guyana. Chevron says that because they are buying Hess as a whole that existing contracts remain valid while Exxon claims there is a change of ownership that triggers a contractual right of first refusal. ... I believe Chevron's claim that Hess survives the buyout is the predominate legal belief, as least as long as there were no legal mistakes. Exxon is willing to take a long shot because the oil field is so valuable worth ~$1 trillion USD. My point is that mergers and acquisitions of Hyperion may be possible with most legal contracts persisting. Contrast this to C-A Acquisition Corp which I believe bought the Amiga IP instead of acquiring Amiga Inc. While this minimized risks, it also triggered change of ownership clauses in contracts which Ben exploited.

Chevron won the arbitration against Exxon today as I predicted.

https://www.tipranks.com/news/chevron-stock-cvx-soars-as-it-comes-out-on-top-in-53b-exxon-mobil-battle

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chevron-closes-hess-acquisition-after-winning-exxon-legal-battle-2025-07-18/

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chevron-wins-exxon-case-loses-time-oil-billions-2025-07-18/

Chevron was confident as they had been buying Hess shares. I was confident and had been adding to my position before they won the arbitration. Exxon lost credibility based on their liberal interpretation of contract law and their relationship with businesses including Chevron will suffer. It was not worth it just because the prize was large. Chevron jumps from a 3.3 million barrels/day producer to a 4.2 million barrels/day producer, not far behind Exxon's 4.5 million barrels/day.

Hyperion is also using very liberal interpretations of the 2009 settlement agreement. Ben Hermans expanded their interpretations over time and it does not align with Everett Carlton's deposition. The claims that Hyperion can use "Amiga" and pre-AmigaOS 3.1 defy logic. Like I predicted, Chevron would win its arbitration, I predict Cloanto will win its case. Exxon did not bet their business on this arbitration unlike Hyperion. I expect Hyperion will have to pay for their IP violations and that it will be more than they expect. The violations should also lay the grounds for the settlement agreement to be nullified. Ben already lost his Hyperion stock on bad bets and business shenanigans yet these fools are willing to stick with his other risky bets and gamble everything. Only in Amiga Neverland.

@matthey

Quote:

An acquisition of Hyperion or merger with it may be one way to get around some of the legal entanglements

I am a little confused here. Since many posters claim they own nothing, what would a potential acquirer get out of this except a mountain of debt?

#6

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

#6 Quote:

I am a little confused here. Since many posters claim they own nothing, what would a potential acquirer get out of this except a mountain of debt?

Most Hyperion contracts would likely survive a purchase of the whole business. As I recall, the 2009 settlement agreement has specific IP successor clauses that favor Hyperion and are an anchor for the Amiga successors even though they are the owners (Ben tried to spring his trap, force Amiga Parties into insolvency and claim the licensed Amiga IP but with liberal interpretations of the settlement agreement). The contracts between Hyperion and the individual AmigaOS 4 developers were not planned as well in Hyperion's favor and not coerced under financial duress. They may or may not have successor clauses as at least one dev has claimed a lack of successor clause meant AmigaOS 4 ownership could not be transferred as contracted to Amiga Inc. Parts of AmigaOS 4 may die with Hyperion and if enough of it does then AmigaOS 4 likely dies too. It is true that acquiring the business would acquire the mountain of debt but Hyperion is having no problem paying that down regardless of their profitability.

@matthey

Sorry, but I still see no advantage to a buyout even after reading your post.

Plus it is irrelevant atm given all the legal proceedings will determine what, if any, assets exist. No one in their right mind would discuss such an option at this time.

#6

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

@dalek

Quote:

dalek wrote: anyone who buys OS 3.2 is achieving is to pay off the lawyers and are not helping Amiga at all.

If I want OS3.2 I will buy it. That will be helping me and my Amiga, the vendor who sold it to me, and the Amiga community at large. If it helps pay off Hyperion's debts (including lawyers) even better.

Quote:

So while they may have squeezed out a small operational profit they are still not profitable.

Operating profit tells you whether the company's business model is viable. Debt doesn't matter so long as it can be serviced to the satisfaction of the lenders(s). Most businesses carry a large amount of debt because it allows them to do stuff that will generate more income without having to accumulate the required cash first.

In my own small company (a computer shop selling Amigas and PCs from 1991 to 2002) I resolved to never borrow any money, not even a bank overdraft. However I did inject $40,000 of my own money to get the business off the ground, which it had to pay back. Without that I would have had nothing to sell, since we initially had to work on a cash basis with suppliers. I also kept a personal bank account with $20,000 in it to bail out the business if it ever didn't have enough cash to pay the bills. 7 years later I had to use it (and fired my manager for incompetence). 2 years later I had recovered that too.

What I learned from this experience is that it would have been better for me to pay myself $35,000/year to manage the business, rather than try to live off the profits (if any). Then I could have run it at zero profit and become rich rather than just getting by. Most small businesses work this way. The fact that they aren't making big profits means nothing because the owners are also employees, who adjust their incomes to match that of the business.

@dalek

Quote:

The way I read it, Hyperion still has outstanding debts of ~200k euros presumably to loans and lawyers? So while they may have squeezed out a small operational profit they are still not profitable. And all anyone who buys OS 3.2 is achieving is to pay off the lawyers and are not helping Amiga at all.

Lawyer, Singular. Please. And the singular lawyer is Ben Hermans.

Just like last time, and the time before, Ben will represent the company. The company is broke so it can not pay the debt to Ben. Instead it will do a 1-to10+ issue of new stock and give all the new stock to Ben as payment for his services. Then suddenly Ben, once again, owns and controls +95% of the shares in the company.

It worked before multiple times before and no one went to prison, so why change the formula?


"Helping amiga" What? We are about 25 years into the history of amiga os4 and there are people that still think that this is for the benefit of amiga and the amiga community? Insanity is what it is.

@bhabbott

Quote:

If I want OS3.2 I will buy it. That will be helping me and my Amiga, the vendor who sold it to me, and the Amiga community at large. If it helps pay off Hyperion's debts (including lawyers) even better.

I have lot's of good stuff on Aminet, this guys who are so special and doing their work for free are breaking even more the already broken amigaos. They want to do the work for free then release it freely, that way the software pool doesn't get even more fragmented, just go to Aminet and get dependencies. What a shitty business model, work for free, but not release freely the work. That from someone who was given the rights to port over to PPC.

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

#6 Quote:

Sorry, but I still see no advantage to a buyout even after reading your post.

A buyout/merger of Hyperion preserves the individual developer contracts for AmigaOS 4. In some cases, AmigaOS 4 IP may be exclusively licensed to Hyperion and could remain exclusively licensed to Hyperion if it dies. AmigaOS 4 IP may die with Hyperion.

Trevor has wasted millions of USD on his AmigaNOne and AmigaOS 4 hobby. He or his businesses have acquired and licensed AmigaOS 4 IP. He has likely bailed out Hyperion before. He has thrown good money after bad. If acquiring Hyperion would keep AmigaOS 4 alive, the debt may not discourage him. The uncertainty of the 2009 settlement agreement may discourage him though. If it is nullified, then it would be difficult for AmigaOS 4 to survive. Maybe it could be rebuilt on top of AROS or Enhancer and renamed to TrevorOS or AmiBench. However, Hyperion may need to be acquired for the individual developer contracts.

#6 Quote:

Plus it is irrelevant atm given all the legal proceedings will determine what, if any, assets exist. No one in their right mind would discuss such an option at this time.

Hyperion may not survive to see the outcome of the "legal proceedings".

V8 Quote:

Lawyer, Singular. Please. And the singular lawyer is Ben Hermans. Just like last time, and the time before, Ben will represent the company. The company is broke so it can not pay the debt to Ben. Instead it will do a 1-to10+ issue of new stock and give all the new stock to Ben as payment for his services. Then suddenly Ben, once again, owns and controls +95% of the shares in the company. It worked before multiple times before and no one went to prison, so why change the formula?

Hyperion management is not so great. They really should seek the legal advice of a different lawyer but can not retain lawyers without paying them. If Ben was a good lawyer, he would refuse to represent Hyperion do to the many conflicts of interest involved. If Ben was a good lawyer, he would not have lost his Hyperion stock do to business shenanigans. If Ben was a good lawyer, he would not have become Trevor's pawn do to business shenanigans. Ben is diabolically plotting to take over the world but his schemes are risky gambles and he has few allies left. The Ben worshipers at Hyperion that gamble Hyperion's survival deserve to lose everything. However, their victims should not have to endure this long suffering. Justice delayed is justice denied.

If Trevor wants AmigaOS 4 to continue, he should ask his own lawyers what they think about Ben's risky liberal interpretations of the 2009 settlement agreement.

Ben's big lie #1

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.256770/gov.uscourts.wawd.256770.7.0.pdf Quote:

58. However, the copyrightable content of Kickstart 1.3 is subsumed within the Software and Software Architecture to which the Settlement Agreement grants Hyperion an exclusive license (subject to the Existing License Agreements listed in Exhibit 1 of the Settlement Agreement). Specifically, each version of AmigaOS (which consists of two components, “Kickstart� and “Workbench�) has the same “Software Architecture� as documented in the Documentation and as defined in Definition o. of the Settlement Agreement to mean “the structure or structures of the system, which comprise software components (i.e., those assumptions other elements can make of an element, such as its provided services, performance characteristics, fault handling, shared resource usage, and so on), and the relationships between them; the term also refers to documentation of a system’s software architecture�.

Ben's big lie #2

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.256770/gov.uscourts.wawd.256770.7.0.pdf Quote:

59. Furthermore, consistent with Hyperion’s license to Software expressly conferred by the Settlement Agreement, Hyperion’s license permits it “to use, develop, modify, commercialize, distribute and market the Software . . . for any current or future hardware platform.� As admitted by Cloanto, certain hardware platforms require the Kickstart 1.3 content in order to run the software.

Ben's big lie #3

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.256770/gov.uscourts.wawd.256770.7.0.pdf Quote:

61. Hyperion’s exclusive license to use the marks AmigaOS, Amiga OS, AmigaOne, and Amiga One necessarily and inherently confers an implied license to use the mark AMIGA, which is the dominant portion of all of the foregoing marks. 62. Nowhere does the Settlement Agreement prohibit Hyperion from using AMIGA alone, yet the Settlement Agreement expressly reserves the right for the Amiga Parties to “use the mark ‘AMIGA’ alone or in conjunction with other words, so long as ‘OS’ or ‘One’ does not directly follow the word “’AMIGA.’� The perceived need to carve out this right for the Amiga Parties from the exclusive license granted to Hyperion evinces that a non-exclusive right in the same also remained for Hyperion under the Settlement Agreement.

Ben moved to new extremes in what looks like a last desperate attempt to cover Hyperion's Amiga IP violations and to trigger the insolvency clause of the Amiga Parties. These are just some of the absurdities that I picked out. Trevor should know better than to trust Ben by now. Trevor should consider what nullification of the 2009 settlement agreement would mean for his AmigaOS 4 investments and the continuation of AmigaOS 4.

V8 Quote:

"Helping amiga" What? We are about 25 years into the history of amiga os4 and there are people that still think that this is for the benefit of amiga and the amiga community? Insanity is what it is.

Much of the support for AmigaOS 4 vs other so called NG Amiga like OSs like MorphOS and AROS comes from the "AmigaOS" branding but this disappears with nullification of the 2009 settlement agreement. The legal battle is not really over AmigaOS 4 anymore anyway. PPC AmigaOS 4 and AmigaNOne are long dead except for in Trevor's fantasy. The legal battle is over the retro 68k AmigaOS and Amiga IP related to it that saved Hyperion when they started interpreting the 2009 settlement agreement more liberally.

@matthey

what you wrote is pure bs
68k still is not good enough like it was 30 years ago
68k still not reach cheap pc from win95 era level
still there is no 68k at rational price
with all things that was standard in 1995 like 2D/3D/FPU/MMU
ppc is still more alive and still much better
stop trolling and start working on 68k
to get it at least to year 1995 level

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: #6 Quote: Sorry, but I still see no advantage to a buyout even after reading your post. A buyout/merger of Hyperion preserves the individual developer contracts for AmigaOS 4. In some cases, AmigaOS 4 IP may be exclusively licensed to Hyperion and could remain exclusively licensed to Hyperion if it dies. AmigaOS 4 IP may die with Hyperion. Trevor has wasted millions of USD on his AmigaNOne and AmigaOS 4 hobby. He or his businesses have acquired and licensed AmigaOS 4 IP. He has likely bailed out Hyperion before. He has thrown good money after bad. If acquiring Hyperion would keep AmigaOS 4 alive, the debt may not discourage him. The uncertainty of the 2009 settlement agreement may discourage him though. If it is nullified, then it would be difficult for AmigaOS 4 to survive. Maybe it could be rebuilt on top of AROS or Enhancer and renamed to TrevorOS or AmiBench. However, Hyperion may need to be acquired for the individual developer contracts.

I don't understand why you continue to paint him like an evil villain. Cut him some slack. Don't you think that maybe he went into this venture with positive ideas and intentions? Yes, with the desire to have an Amiga5000, but not caring about the politics at first?
What do we know what stories Ben had told him and how convincing he was? Trevor had invested money and surely he didn't want to see it flushed down the drain! So he might (or has) helped Hyperion out, specifically when Ben was still there.
I don't get the impression that he's gifting more money to Ben anymore.
He wouldn't have made a fuss about Ben "taking money from the shared account without telling" if he was so keen to finance him.

I don't know what your line of work is, if you are still working or already using up your savings. I'd guess the latter since you can gather so much time to fill the forum with big, lenghty posts. I said this in the past already, you seem to be quite knowledgeable in many things and smart.
Why don't you take initiative and weasel yourself into the puppeteers circle and start to do some good? Maybe ask cdmauro, he seems to to be a smart candidate too. He has years experience in writing 68k code while working for the motor industry and also knows his way around intel (apparently he has good connection with the mother company) and is also very knowledgeable in programming for the best OS ever: Windows! Both of you should have saved a lot gold through your careers by the looks of how gifted your are.
Unix is shit, we have seen that, linux -its derivative- is necro-shit and Macs os is diluted diarrhoea shit with its new aqua interface.
I think cdmauro should write a new Amiga-GUI-theme for windowsOS and we (well you, I wouldn't know how to start) slap that into a new Amiga7000 with 68190. Also maybe we (the royal "we") couild ask ppcamiga1 for help, and you could just port and fix a new MUI "GUI" for windowsOS! I think everybody would be happy then!

Quote:

Hyperion management is not so great. They really should seek the legal advice of a different lawyer but can not retain lawyers without paying them. If Ben was a good lawyer, he would refuse to represent Hyperion do to the many conflicts of interest involved. If Ben was a good lawyer, he would not have lost his Hyperion stock do to business shenanigans. If Ben was a good lawyer, he would not have become Trevor's pawn do to business shenanigans. Ben is diabolically plotting to take over the world but his schemes are risky gambles and he has few allies left. The Ben worshipers at Hyperion that gamble Hyperion's survival deserve to lose everything. However, their victims should not have to endure this long suffering. Justice delayed is justice denied. If Trevor wants AmigaOS 4 to continue, he should ask his own lawyers what they think about Ben's risky liberal interpretations of the 2009 settlement agreement.

I do agree with you. Your poor opinion about Ben seems to be spot on. He doesn't even bother to try to right the bad opinion people have about him. Maybe he thinks it's totally useless to try, too many morons in the community or he has some gigantic ego; I haven't seen Jeff Bezos ever apologising for his shenanigans either. And mostly everybody keeps throwing cash down his throat. Same goes for Billy Boy Gates, Oh wait, he is a philanthropist now, a good man and I almost forgot he's the author of the best OS out there, windowsOS OS!
So Ben must just have been looking up to them and copy the behaviour of humanity's all-saints and idols.
Quote:

Ben moved to new extremes in what looks like a last desperate attempt to cover Hyperion's Amiga IP violations and to trigger the insolvency clause of the Amiga Parties. These are just some of the absurdities that I picked out. Trevor should know better than to trust Ben by now. Trevor should consider what nullification of the 2009 settlement agreement would mean for his AmigaOS 4 investments and the continuation of AmigaOS 4.

"Helping amiga" What? We are about 25 years into the history of amiga os4 and there are people that still think that this is for the benefit of amiga and the amiga community? Insanity is what it is.
[/quote]

So isn't Ben out of the game since some months? Oh wait, he's doing consulting work for Hyperion because only he knows about he has knitted and have been knitting all this convoluted legal master plan.

Quote:

Much of the support for AmigaOS 4 vs other so called NG Amiga like OSs like MorphOS and AROS comes from the "AmigaOS" branding but this disappears with nullification of the 2009 settlement agreement. The legal battle is not really over AmigaOS 4 anymore anyway. PPC AmigaOS 4 and AmigaNOne are long dead except for in Trevor's fantasy. The legal battle is over the retro 68k AmigaOS and Amiga IP related to it that saved Hyperion when they started interpreting the 2009 settlement agreement more liberally.

What is your suggestion in all this again? Let everything Amiga finally die (R.I.P.) and let the winners re-write history (the mac was the original visionary computer that changed everything, windows rightfully is the best OS ever, more secure, more user friendly, more intuitive, more supported, more for good for the resources throw away hardware, consistent in look&feel, oh-good-lord-i-could-go-on-for-centuries-with-its-flawless-benefits-advantages-and-innovations).

Maybe those stupid cone-heads in the upper management should just go away and let us enjoy the Amiga as it is, or let us rewrite a clean OS starting from the original sources (again) but one without any legal constrains. Maybe the Amiga name isn't that important either, we could use a new name. I propose Amigo1OS or simply AIOS (Amiga 1ntelligence OS, which in case of any legal battles could simply be stated to mean Amiga 1nspired OS). Then we develop the 68k further and can finally play all the games and demos ever written for the Amiga. Then we flood the TockTick with videos to attract new millennials and zoomers to work their way into programming for the new-old machines. Once that is achieved, we can enjoy the Amiga as it was supposed to be and stop development, just enjoy. Set in stone like a perfect Greek (ungendered ) statue.

Amigo1 Quote:

I don't understand why you continue to paint him like an evil villain. Cut him some slack. Don't you think that maybe he went into this venture with positive ideas and intentions? Yes, with the desire to have an Amiga5000, but not caring about the politics at first? What do we know what stories Ben had told him and how convincing he was? Trevor had invested money and surely he didn't want to see it flushed down the drain! So he might (or has) helped Hyperion out, specifically when Ben was still there. I don't get the impression that he's gifting more money to Ben anymore. He wouldn't have made a fuss about Ben "taking money from the shared account without telling" if he was so keen to finance him.

I expect Trevor had good intentions in the beginning. The road to hell is paved with good intentions though. It is the misdeeds during the journey that are the problem. The ends rarely justify the means with utilitarian ethics getting Trevor to where he is now. He may live in a complete fantasy world but it is not an excuse and everything about him is suspect. While he was likely the Amiga's biggest supporter in the beginning, he has become the Amiga's biggest roadblock. He has the power to fix this before his utilitarian ethics built empire comes crumbling down and Amiga technology likely lost with it. The survival of Trevor's empire relies on the strategy of his most unethical general that gambles and lost all of his Hyperion stock. Also, Trevor himself could have destroyed him by reporting his embezzlement and bank fraud. Who in their right mind would gamble a 3rd time with this unethical strategic failure?

Amigo1 Quote:

I don't know what your line of work is, if you are still working or already using up your savings. I'd guess the latter since you can gather so much time to fill the forum with big, lenghty posts. I said this in the past already, you seem to be quite knowledgeable in many things and smart. Why don't you take initiative and weasel yourself into the puppeteers circle and start to do some good? Maybe ask cdmauro, he seems to to be a smart candidate too. He has years experience in writing 68k code while working for the motor industry and also knows his way around intel (apparently he has good connection with the mother company) and is also very knowledgeable in programming for the best OS ever: Windows! Both of you should have saved a lot gold through your careers by the looks of how gifted your are. Unix is shit, we have seen that, linux -its derivative- is necro-shit and Macs os is diluted diarrhoea shit with its new aqua interface. I think cdmauro should write a new Amiga-GUI-theme for windowsOS and we (well you, I wouldn't know how to start) slap that into a new Amiga7000 with 68190. Also maybe we (the royal "we") couild ask ppcamiga1 for help, and you could just port and fix a new MUI "GUI" for windowsOS! I think everybody would be happy then!

Weaseling my way into investments is not how I operate. It is easier and safer to invest in large cap stocks like Chevron. I am a value investor and look for misvalued opportunities. I see opportunities in the 68k Amiga but Trevor's Amiga IP squatters currently cause too much uncertainty for investors.

Amigo1 Quote:

I do agree with you. Your poor opinion about Ben seems to be spot on. He doesn't even bother to try to right the bad opinion people have about him. Maybe he thinks it's totally useless to try, too many morons in the community or he has some gigantic ego; I haven't seen Jeff Bezos ever apologising for his shenanigans either. And mostly everybody keeps throwing cash down his throat. Same goes for Billy Boy Gates, Oh wait, he is a philanthropist now, a good man and I almost forgot he's the author of the best OS out there, windowsOS OS! So Ben must just have been looking up to them and copy the behaviour of humanity's all-saints and idols.

Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates are successes worth billions of USD themselves. Ben is an abject failure at everything and is headed to the poor house and/or the big house. How many people/businesses are currently suing Ben? How many crimes has Ben committed?

Amigo1 Quote:

What is your suggestion in all this again? Let everything Amiga finally die (R.I.P.) and let the winners re-write history (the mac was the original visionary computer that changed everything, windows rightfully is the best OS ever, more secure, more user friendly, more intuitive, more supported, more for good for the resources throw away hardware, consistent in look&feel, oh-good-lord-i-could-go-on-for-centuries-with-its-flawless-benefits-advantages-and-innovations).

My suggestion is cooperation to make Amiga great again. The new Commodore started with less faithful Commodore hardware in the C64x (x86-64 & Linux) than the PPC AmigaNOne which at least retained the AmigaOS even though it should have retained less of it for targeting the desktop market. The new Commodore CEO learned quickly in a matter of days that more faithful hardware was necessary to have a successful business model while the PPC AmigaNOne business model has been broken for 23 years. Instead of cooperating to change to a retro 68k Amiga business model, the Hyperion A-EonKit syndicate became Amiga IP squatters challenging ownership of the Amiga IP. It is their 68k Amiga products that keep them alive and Trevor allows this to happen. Trevor can not wash his hands of these shenanigans. He is culpable of wrongdoings even if he did not physically nail the nails through the hands of an innocent man.

Amigo1 Quote:

Maybe those stupid cone-heads in the upper management should just go away and let us enjoy the Amiga as it is, or let us rewrite a clean OS starting from the original sources (again) but one without any legal constrains. Maybe the Amiga name isn't that important either, we could use a new name. I propose Amigo1OS or simply AIOS (Amiga 1ntelligence OS, which in case of any legal battles could simply be stated to mean Amiga 1nspired OS). Then we develop the 68k further and can finally play all the games and demos ever written for the Amiga. Then we flood the TockTick with videos to attract new millennials and zoomers to work their way into programming for the new-old machines. Once that is achieved, we can enjoy the Amiga as it was supposed to be and stop development, just enjoy. Set in stone like a perfect Greek (ungendered ) statue.

AROS is an alternative to an updated AmigaOS if Amiga cooperation fails. An Amiga AROS or Amiga MorphOS also may be possible.

Last edited by matthey on 22-Jul-2025 at 02:18 AM.

@matthey

from developer point of view
if you want make Amiga great again
you should not attack ppc amiga
you should hard work on open source mui clone
mui is one and only thing from amiga os worth preserved after migration to x86 or arm
mui is not owned by Amiga Os 4 owners
you waste time for nothing attacking ppc amiga
the only way forward is hard work
so stop trolling start working on mui