I discussed with moderators and was informed that the old PS3 thread would not be resurrected, but that I'd be free to start my own thread on the topic. So I'd like to have a thread here about gaming comparisons on PS3 and Xbox 360, an issue we have discussed on the other threads as well, but maybe this time around focus more on this. Obviously I am also in a better position now to contribute, because I have both systems. I also have an interest in learning more about this so to better know which games to pick and choose for either of my systems.

We can also, of course, discuss technical and other reasons behind Xbox 360 and PS3 technical performance as well as market performance because these are hot topics here too. As for why at AW.net instead of some console site, I think this is a nice community to have discussions like this as well, on a larger console gaming site the volume and resulting noise would be far bigger.

I will try to post my experiences here as I go along. First experiences to come in the next post!

I have just downloaded, on MikeB's suggestion, Ridge Racer 7 demo on my PS3. I will later on borrow a copy of Ridge Racer 6 for Xbox 360 for comparisons. My initial expectation is that I'll prefer the PS3 version because of added resolution, because unlike GT HD, this one really rocks.

My background in Ridge Racer is just the PSP, where I have got as far as crowned a Ridge Racer and enjoyed the game a lot. The PSP graphics are sharp and the speed is awesome on the PSP. I was instantly at home driving RR7 demo on PS3, the controls are exactly the same as on the PSP. Nice. Even lack of rumble didn't seem all that strange because there is no rumble on PSP either.

RR7 demo drives well, moves well and I like the sense of speed. But how does the 1080p look? Very good. There is quite a bit of flickering going on in the textures and some glitches here and there, and moire, and jaggies are there because of lack of anti-aliasing (cars are quite jagged), but it actually does look magnificent when it moves. This is something the GT HD just failed to do, amaze. Colours are deep and rich, very nice. Details up close are nothing to write home about, but the scenery (that you mostly see while moving fast), is damn beautiful.

I am very tempted to buy this game. I loved RR on the PSP and this is more of the same with better graphics on a bigger screen. Lovely. (That of course may be the down side too, more of the same.)

It is of course an open question could Xbox 360 run Ridge Racer 7 just as well. Maybe it could. We'll see when more 1080p games start to emerge on both systems as to what the difference is. But RR7 judging from the demo, does seem to manage delivering a very good gaming experience in 1080p.

I'll post my experiences vs. RR6 when I get some!

Last edited by jtsiren on 31-Mar-2007 at 12:06 PM.

@jtsiren

1up, IMO tried to write up a weak price comparison (note a 1up guy did state in a Phil Harrison interview he has no doubt the PS3 is more powerful though, XBox 360 Elite with HDMI support vs PS3)...

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3158279

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What Xbox 360 Elite is Missing that PlayStation 3 has: * Next-Gen disc format support: HD-DVD Add-on for Xbox 360

Still won't make the XBox 360 on par as games cannot benefit (and if they could it's just a 1x speed drive). I view the Blu-Ray drive as a long term benefit to allow software developers more freedom in making bigger, more impressive games.

And I myself prefer not having to swap discs, I wouldn't have liked God of War 2 for the PS2 to come supplied on many discs. Also take into account that usually game data will be duplicated on the seperate discs. Considering costs I think from a commericial company standpoint they rather keep the amount of supplied discs as minimal as possible, thus this may result in game design sacrifices.

In addition to this a 12x speed DVD drive will only load dual-layer discs at 8x speeds which on average is considerably slower than a 2x speed Blu-Ray drive, so considering loading times developers are already making sacrifices (if possible) to keep the amount of data to fit on just a single layer. The PS3 Blu-Ray drive is able to read at a sustained 9 MB/s, which is more than sufficient to stream data like loads of high quality textures. With sustained reading speeds it's easier for game designers to predict how much data can be streamed, with DVD this is greatly dependent on the location of the disc being read.

I think Blu-Ray was an excellent future-proof choice by Sony for a successor to the PS2, just like a DVD drive was a good choice for the PS2 instead of using CDs like the PSX did.

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* Wireless Internet support: Xbox 360 Wireless Adapter -- $99.99

Great all these external, non-integrated components... The XBox 360 already comes with a huge external powersupply (and 2 big rigid cables at the back which prevented me from nicely fitting the console in my media cabinet), yet the HD-DVD again requires its own addtional power supply. IMO too many cables and not very stylish.

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* Xbox Live 360 12-month Gold Card -- $49.99

Only 12 months? What happens after this, will people stop playing online games?

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* Headset for online play: Sony Ericsson Bluetooth Headset -- $109.95 (Other options: Logitech Mobile Express Headset $49.99)

Already have a mobile headset for my mobile phone. A dual function is nice, more reason to buy a headset for your phone or vice versa.

My point is that you may already own a keyboard or a headset anyhow. If you upgrade the harddrive you can use the older one for some other purpose and things like that. With regard to the PS3 there are many 3rd party options to choose from, ranging from cheap to expensive.

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* Sony Computer Entertainment Component Cables -- $22.99 * HDMI Cable for PlayStation 3 -- $59.99

You need both? And at least there are much cheaper HDMI cables from 3rd parties.

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* A 60 Gig Expansion for the HD -- Fujitsu 60 B 2.5" -- $64.88 (you'll also need an enclosure, thanks Eurogamer Forums)

Better wait until you run out of space, when the time comes maybe a 120 GB drive will be cheaper. Maybe if you want to use Linux as well 120GB may not be a bad idea currently, 120GB drives suited for PS3 usage are currently aleady listed below 100 dollar! But of course with the PS3 you can easily go well beyond this if you so desire.

The thing which got me interested in the PS3 in the first place is the Cell, no XBox 360 addon for that...

Some things I disliked about the XBox 360 the most was having to worry about scracthed discs, with Blu-Ray discs scratches are almost non-existant due to the protective layer. (Also there is less worries about finger prints and the Blu-Ray more precise reader is more tolerant to scratched DVDs). Here in the Netherlands there are lots of complaints regarding discs being scratched by the XBox 360, yet Microsoft has been unwilling to compensate those effected.

The other thing I dislike about the XBox 360 is the noise the DVD drive generates, I am unable to play a DVD game without waking up my girlfriend at night. My PS3 is located in a storage cabinet and will not make any noticeable sound, I can't hear the fans even after playing for a long time. I have to open the glass doors and put my ear inside the cabinet to really hear anything clearly.

How much are such things worth?

Personally I like the PS3 package far better, the system seems more geared towards the future to me, the PS3 only needs some additional games to suit an even larger audience, but having said that Resistance: Fall of Man (/online), Motorstorm (/onlne) and Lemmings offer me more than enough entertainment to wait with anticipation for games like Lair, Heavenly Sword, Killzone and Ninja Gaiden Sigma for the near future. I can't play all games simultaneously anyhow.

Last edited by MikeB on 31-Mar-2007 at 12:44 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 31-Mar-2007 at 12:40 PM.

@jtsiren

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I have just downloaded, on MikeB's suggestion, Ridge Racer 7 demo on my PS3. I will later on borrow a copy of Ridge Racer 6 for Xbox 360 for comparisons. My initial expectation is that I'll prefer the PS3 version because of added resolution, because unlike GT HD, this one really rocks.

Glad you liked the RR7 demo, after Motorstorm I personally cannot be bothered much with this game, although IMO RR7 is overall a good improvement over RR6 and that was solely my aim to point to refer to this demo.

With regard to GT HD, IMO the basics show potential. The track is based on an earlier GT track on the PS2 to which this should be compared to (1080p vs 480p/1080i version), with actual cars to race against instead of just time trials I think the game can be be good fun. The replays are IMO amazing and this cars look very good (especially the Ferrari), IMO very nice for a free demo.

Insomniac's Brian Hastings speaks out on the PS3, as linked to by Minator in another thread:

"If you ever hear someone say “Blu-Ray isn’t needed for this generation,” rest assured they don’t make games for a living. At Insomniac, we were filling up DVDs on the PS2, as were most of the developers in the industry. We compressed the level data, we compressed the mpeg movies, we compressed the audio, and it was still a struggle to get it to fit in 6 gigs. Now we’ve got 16 times as much system RAM, so the level data is 16 times bigger. And the average disc space of games only gets bigger over a console’s lifespan. As games get bigger, more advanced and more complex, they necessarily take up more space. If developers were filling up DVDs last generation, there are clearly going to be some sacrifices made to fit current generation games in the same amount of space.

Granted, some really great Xbox 360 games have squeezed onto a DVD9. Gears of War is a beautiful game and shows off the highest resolution textures of anything yet released, partly because of the Unreal Engine’s ability to stream textures. This means that you can have much higher resolution textures than you could normally fit in your 512 MB of RAM. It also means that you’re going to chew up more disc space for each level. With streamed textures, streamed geometry and streamed audio, even with compression, you can quickly approach 1 GB of data per level. That inherently limits you to a maximum of about 7 levels, and that’s without multiplayer levels or mpeg cutscenes.

Sometimes people ask us, “If Resistance takes 14 gigabytes, why doesn’t it look better than Gears?” Well, for one, Resistance didn’t support texture streaming, so we had to make choices about where we spent our high-res textures. Resistance also had 30 single-player chapters, six multiplayer maps, uncompressed audio streaming, and high-definition mpegs. That all added up to a lot of space on the disc. Starting with Ratchet and Clank Future: Tools of Destruction we are supporting texture streaming, which will make the worlds look even better, and will also consume even more space on disc.

There’s no question that you can always cut more levels, compress the audio more, compress the textures more, down-res the mpeg movies, and eventually get any game to fit on a DVD. But you paid for a high-def experience, right? You want the highest resolution, best audio, most cinematic experience a developer can offer, right? That’s why Blu-Ray is important for games, and why it will become more important each year of this hardware cycle."

"PS3 Has a Major CPU Advantage
The GPUs on the Xbox 360 and PS3 are roughly equivalent, with the Xbox 360 arguably having a slight edge. The difference in CPU power, however, is far greater with the PS3 enjoying the advantage. The PS3’s eight parallel CPUs (one primary “PPU” and seven Cell processors) give it potentially far more computing power than the three parallel CPUs in the Xbox 360. Just about any tech programmer will tell you that the PS3’s CPUs are significantly more powerful. The problem is that it has been challenging thus far to take advantage of the Cell’s parallel architecture.

With the PS2, Sony got away with making a fairly developer-unfriendly system, and its success allowed their hardware designers to ignore developer’s complaints as they made the PS3. People high up at Sony have realized that approach simply won’t work anymore and are trying to fix the problem. Sony is actively improving their libraries, tools and developer support in order to make PS3 development easier. They are giving first party developed techniques and code to third-party developers so that multi-platform games should start looking better on PS3.

Games developed from the ground up on PS3 are the ones that will really show off the PS3’s CPU advantage. The complexity of the distributed processing architecture means that PS3 engines won’t fully blossom until a little later in the lifecycle than the PS2. This has put the PS3 at a disadvantage early in its lifecycle, but within two years you will see games that surpass what is possible on the Xbox 360."

"A lot of industry watchers and even a handful of publishers have been quick to write Sony off this generation, and I think that’s near-sighted. Sony has made a lot of decisions with the PS3 that may have slowed them down in the short run, but should give them a big advantage in the long run. The high price, hardware complexity, and the uncertainty of the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD format war have contributed to the PS3’s slow start out of the gate. But as the price drops, developers master the hardware, and Blu-Ray becomes the new DVD standard, Sony’s early disadvantages turn to advantages. As downloadable games become more common, the 60 GB hard-drive will be a big advantage to developers and consumers. As games get bigger and more sophisticated, Blu-Ray storage will increasingly become a major advantage. And as more and more of Sony’s exclusive first-party titles get released, the PS3 will begin to outsell the competition on a monthly basis. Those publishers who have shifted resources away from PS3 development will find themselves behind the curve and losing money as the market center gradually shifts toward the PS3 over the next two years."

Trailer of Insomniac's upcoming PS3 game Ratchet And Clank:

http://threespeech.com/blog/?p=344

Note the guys behind Killzone also feel very confident on the PS3 being far more powerful, they are working a game which has a funding well beyond 20 Million USD.

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Still won't make the XBox 360 on par as games cannot benefit (and if they could it's just a 1x speed drive).

It could fit comfortably within 4 GB if they had used in-engine cut-scenes. Something which is quite irrelevant on next-gen hardware - and some would argue on last gen.

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n addition to this a 12x speed DVD drive will only load dual-layer discs at 8x speeds

I have still to see any evidence of this. So far the only evidence has been that 12X DVD is consistently faster. Much faster.

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with DVD this is greatly dependent on the location of the disc being read.

Data is arranged accordingly. Regardless even at 8.2x (which rarely happens) DVD still has faster seek times which of course impacts texture loading.

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Great all these external, non-integrated components...

All about choice. Some may already have 802.11n networks and prefer not to be stuck with 802.11g hardware. This way you can hook your machine up using a wireless bridge (without having paid extra for wifi in the first place) or just use cables (which is preferable for video streaming to your console anyway).

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the HD-DVD

... is an option. Something you can choose to get or not. So far I have saved a lot of money by not getting it. I'm quite happy with that.

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Only 12 months? What happens after this, will people stop playing online games?

As it turns out most people are happy to pay for a superior service. The last generation was already far ahead of the competition and it's at an entirely new level now. Once people sign up they tend to stay signed up. It's what this generation of gaming is about : Having the community right there are your fingertips regardless of what you're doing on your console. Well, except you may want to switch notifications off for movie watching.

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You need both? And at least there are much cheaper HDMI cables from 3rd parties.

The point is: You get both with the 360 (HDMI+composite+component). No matter what you have when you get home, you can hook it up. And another thing is: If you need optical out there's a little adapter for that too, so you can have HDMI running to your TV set and still send optical out to your stereo through the other output. Something which is quite a big deal for a lot of people.

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Better wait until you run out of space

Of course. Why should you pay for more if you don't need it? I still have most of my harddrive free.

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Some things I disliked about the XBox 360 the most was having to worry about scracthed discs

HAVE you had any scratched discs? I have not. I do not know any that have. I've yet to hear anything from people in the rest of the world. Do Dutch people like to use dvds for beer coasters?

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The other thing I dislike about the XBox 360 is the noise the DVD drive generates

Some of the models are indeed quite loud. My 360 isn't as loud as my original PS2 though, which is the only machine my mother actually commented on the noise levels of, when I brought it over one day.

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How much are such things worth?

Not as much as a superior selection of games for the whole family, a far superior online component, your own music in any title, faster loading times, free MCE extender functionality, light synth by Jeff Minter \o/, the largest and best supported selection of supported video outputs of any console ever and so on...

Last edited by Trezzer on 31-Mar-2007 at 01:51 PM.
Last edited by Trezzer on 31-Mar-2007 at 01:48 PM.
Last edited by Trezzer on 31-Mar-2007 at 01:47 PM.

@MikeB

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Insomniac's Brian Hastings speaks out on the PS3

Ah yes. Insomniac. About as unbiased as you can get. After all they release their games for a wide range of *cough*Sony*cough* platforms.

As for the contents? I find them hardly worth discussing except to point out that his number of leveis bit is absolutely hilarious.

@jtsiren
But dosent the jaggies tell you one thing? That the ps3 is infact not really capable of 1080p games either. There is absolutely no point in 1080p when they have to sacrifice important things like anti alias and other visual effects. A 720p title can in many such situations look better than the 1080p equivalent.

@Tomas

It's still early days though. Simple games like for instance Virtua Tennis 3 looks fine in 1080p. Well, it's no masterpiece but nor does it look terrible. It's still too early to judge what they can get out of 1080p eventually, but regardless you can always have more effects at 720p. That is a constant like death and taxes ;)

@Trezzer

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It could fit comfortably within 4 GB if they had used in-engine cut-scenes. Something which is quite irrelevant on next-gen hardware - and some would argue on last gen.

What is "it"? I think everything greatly depends on the specific game you are talking about, if the game is 4GB or smaller the whole game could easily fit on the 60GB harddrive, which should allow arcade like loading performance. I guess the arcade version of Tekken 6 wouldn't run of a Blu-Ray disc, but be installed instead.

Sure most high definition PS3 and XBox 360 could be done on the PS2 or Nintendo WII when enough game design sacrifices are to be made, but that's not we really want to see happening or do we, else people could stick to the PS2 forever and always? Rich graphics, sounds, more complex AI and physics is what distinguishes the next gen systems from the last gen (at least with regard to XBox 360 and PS3).

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I have still to see any evidence of this. So far the only evidence has been that 12X DVD is consistently faster. Much faster.

Not per se, some games may load faster, especially some quick ports to the PS3 early on. But for instance loading times for Oblivion are almost halve and the game loads less often while playing. Anyway I think games will become more demanding and use more space in course of time.

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HAVE you had any scratched discs? I have not. I do not know any that have. I've yet to hear anything from people in the rest of the world. Do Dutch people like to use dvds for beer coasters?

Yes, I have had quite a few scratched CDs and DVDs most of them cheap second hand ones.

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ome of the models are indeed quite loud. My 360 isn't as loud as my original PS2 though, which is the only machine my mother actually commented on the noise levels of, when I brought it over one day.

I don't know with regard to the PS2 and I am not interested in getting one. Are you referring to the old models from half a decade ago or the slimline version?

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Not as much as a superior selection of games

I think this depends on personal taste. BTW, have you finally had the chance to actually play games on the PS3, such as Motorstorm or Resistance online?

Last edited by MikeB on 31-Mar-2007 at 03:03 PM.

@Tomas

What Jaggies?

Ninja Gaiden Sigma @ 1080p / 60 FPS

Screenshot

I think games like Lair and Ninja Gaiden Sigma will look fine. RR7 needed to make the christmas / launch deadline, still Namco did a good job.

@MikeB

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What is "it"?

Ah, sorry I was not more clear. I was talking God of War 2. But any title will do - Including Insomniac's.

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I guess the arcade version of Tekken 6 wouldn't run of a Blu-Ray disc, but be installed instead.

Let's hope not. That would be a dealbreaker for those who bought the 20 gig version.

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Not per se, some games may load faster, especially some quick ports to the PS3 early on. But for instance loading times for Oblivion are almost halve and the game loads less often while playing.

Actually this seems to have improved with the Shivering Isles release for 360. I just had a quick run around after installing it and generally the performance seemed much better - including loading times. Perhaps they have improved streaming since the original release. I didn't do any scientific tests, though, so just take it for what it is: a first impression.

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Yes, I have had quite a few scratched CDs and DVDs most of them cheap second hand ones.

Ah, but I was thinking in terms of actual new 360 titles you played that got scratched. Even the most scratched title I have (review copy that's been through some rough handling) plays just fine. I've only ever had one title that wouldn't play in a healthy console, but a repair kit fixed that (was cheaper than getting another copy).

That said we can easily agree that scratch resistance is a universally good thing. It's just not something I worry about.

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I don't know with regard to the PS2 and I am not interested in getting one. Are you referring to the old models from half a decade ago or the slimline version?

That was a second or third revision of the PS2 - before slimline. My point is though: At least my specific 360 isn't louder than other recent consoles. I know of people with the loud drive who are bothered by it.

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I think this depends on personal taste. BTW, have you finally had the chance to actually play games on the PS3, such as Motorstorm or Resistance online?

Not really at this point in time. There is simply a much broader selection on 360 at this point in time be it full-fledged games or smaller casual games. This is a time limited advantage, though, as the PS3 will of course eventually get a broader selection than it has now.

And no, unfortunately I don't know anyone nearby, who thought the PS3 offered enough value for money to get it. I do know one guy who has a 360 at home and they got a PS3 for the office. While he liked the hardware itself he was unimpressed with the machine as a whole (video/audio features, online component (or rather lack thereof), etc.). He liked Virtua Fighter 5 and Motorstorm but was quite unimpressed with Virtua Tennis 3.

There might be some store kiosks around with PS3s, but I haven't been to a games store recently, since I do most shopping online. And to be honest it's not exactly like I'm interested enough to actively seek one out just to try what I already have had for months (but with more polish).

And yeah, Ninja Gaiden Sigma looks to be a nice remake. Team Ninja know their stuff. I'm already playing the original Ninja Gaiden Black in 720p and it's a great game.

Last edited by Trezzer on 31-Mar-2007 at 03:23 PM.
Last edited by Trezzer on 31-Mar-2007 at 03:21 PM.

@Trezzer

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Let's hope not. That would be a dealbreaker for those who bought the 20 gig version.

I was referring to the arcade version, I think the home version will likely load of disc maybe with partial harddrive install option.

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Ah, but I was thinking in terms of actual new 360 titles you played that got scratched. Even the most scratched title I have (review copy that's been through some rough handling) plays just fine. I've only ever had one title that wouldn't play in a healthy console, but a repair kit fixed that (was cheaper than getting another copy).

I already said I encountered problems, but I did not find any too serious scratches on the disc (the minor ones may be due to spinnng inside the drive, I don't know). Maybe the drive is too sensitive or picky.

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And to be honest it's not exactly like I'm interested enough

@MikeB

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Seriously... Why would I care so much? Sony are still playing catch-up to the machine I already have. Sure, I'd like to try Motorstorm at some point. Maybe Resistance too just because you've been advocating it so strongly, but I already have more games than I have time to play.

@Trezzer

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Trezzer wrote: @Tomas It's still early days though. Simple games like for instance Virtua Tennis 3 looks fine in 1080p. Well, it's no masterpiece but nor does it look terrible. It's still too early to judge what they can get out of 1080p eventually, but regardless you can always have more effects at 720p. That is a constant like death and taxes ;)

Yes, as long as the game is simple i see no problem. But making a game like Ridge Racer into 1080p just for purpose of being able to say it is 1080p, is just plain moronic in my opinion, when the game could have looked better in 720p.

@MikeB
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What Jaggies?

That is not the same type of game at all. Fighting games are easier to render considering that you dont need the same type of draw distance.

@Trezzer

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Seriously... Why would I care so much?

I won't go into details as that could be read as flamebait, but you don't act as if you don't care. IMO it helps to actually have knowledge of what you are talking about, t I think we have seen similar behaviour from MorphOS and AROS fans in the past in reaction to AmigaOS4, but after some of them actually tried the OS, some were more open-minded towards people preferring this OS over what they have been using themselves.

@Tomas

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But making a game like Ridge Racer into 1080p just for purpose of being able to say it is 1080p, is just plain moronic in my opinion, when the game could have looked better in 720p.

Your reasoning makes sense only if not RR7 and Full Auto 2 wouldn't actually look better than the XBox 360 originals, both are faster and look prettier at 1080p with more details and effects according to the bulk of the mainstream press. And these are just some relatively low profile launch titles, the really big projects are still under development.

Last edited by MikeB on 31-Mar-2007 at 06:27 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 31-Mar-2007 at 06:25 PM.

@MikeB
Quote:

Your reasoning makes sense only if not RR7 and Full Auto 2 wouldn't actually look better than the XBox 360 originals, both are faster and look prettier at 1080p with more details and effects according to the bulk of the mainstream press. And these are just some relatively low profile launch titles, the really big projects are still under development.

In some ways it does indeed look better, but it also look worse in many ways and i believe it could have looked a heck of alot better if they did it in 720p instead.
It would be odd if it did not look better, considering it is much more recent than the xbox 360 version.

My fear is that alot of titles will be in 1080p just so that they can brack about it being high def, even if it means sacrificing quality.

@MikeB

I only care about misinformation really. And sure, I would like to see it eventually - if for no other reason than that it is the latest Playstation. It's not as if it really offers anything substantially new at this point though. I have been playing high-def games and played hi-def video for a while now, and there's nothing on the PS3 that makes me think "Oh, I've just GOT to try that."

I'm sure there will be something eventually, but so far I'm only somewhat interested in Motorstorm. No more than I am interested in trying the latest Sonic game on the Wii, though, and I'm not running around town to try that out either.