@BrianK

Quote:

The other issue is HDTV inception rates. They are sure to grow but in the USA it's still the minority, a growing one, of the market that has a HD set which would make use of HD content. As the FCC pushes out analog signals for digital people will be further encouraged to buy a new HD set and will of course start eyeing up more HD media players. 2008 and 2009 will be interesting.

According to the Consumer Electronics Association an estimated 12.5 million HDTVs were sold to U.S. consumers in 2006 (currently around 31 million HDTV households in total). So the growth rate seems good, PS3 will likely contribute a positve effect to HDTV sales this year and vice versa, I agree 2008 and beyond will be interesting and I expect high definition content such as movies and games to really take off.

@MikeB

Quote:

According to the Consumer Electronics Association an estimated 12.5 million HDTVs were sold to U.S. consumers in 2006

Oooh. That must be a direct effect of Xbox 360 sales then. I'm sure they've been enjoying their high definition content whether it's been movies or games. Xbox 360 will probably continue to drive HDTV sales this year as it has been doing up till this point.

(Hooray for one-sided biased posts)

@Trezzer

I am sure the XBox 360 played a positive effect as well for 2005, 2006 and will do so in the future. The more high definition content the better.

Quote:

(Hooray for one-sided biased posts)

Was that just another cheapshot? What's really the use?

@MikeB

Quote:

Was that just another cheapshot? What's really the use?

I was really just hoping you'd take to heart what has been said. Instead of going out of your way to specifically point out PS3 as a major contributor to HDTV adoption (and vice versa) you could have said current hi-def consoles or similar.

The sad thing is that your post shows that you actually agree with what I say (even if it was a grand exaggeration on my part for theatrical effect, as I'm sure you'll agree) but still you made it sound like a PR post for a brand rather than for console gaming as a whole. I have noticed that occasionally (and especially recently) you've done it less and it has been good to see. It would make it easier to keep a balanced discussion if it stays that way.

And it is indeed a good point. Applications for devices are what matters. Devices without applications are useless devices. The same goes for more HDTV programming, media, streaming media and so on.

Last edited by Trezzer on 06-Apr-2007 at 10:46 PM.
Last edited by Trezzer on 06-Apr-2007 at 10:45 PM.

@Trezzer

MikeB wrote:

Quote:

PS3 will likely contribute a positve effect to HDTV sales this year and vice versa

Trezzer wrote:

Quote:

our way to specifically point out PS3 as a major contributor to HDTV adoption (and vice versa)

Did I state "major effect" or did I state "likely contribute a positve effect"? Although IMO sure the PS3 plays a major role in Blu-Ray adoption and mass production of related components.

Quote:

It would make it easier to keep a balanced discussion if it stays that way

Look who's talking, like I recommended to you in private it may be wise to reread your older messages every once in while for reflection purposes.

Last edited by MikeB on 06-Apr-2007 at 11:15 PM.

@MikeB

*Sigh*

I guess there's no point. I'm just not gonna bother any more. It's not worth the headache. You already know what's wrong and yet you choose to make ungrounded counter-attacks on anyone who address your problematic posting style (if one can call it that). If someone complains about you and moderators agree, you give them a hard time too even though their word is final. No, everyone who dares criticize are not against you by default.

I'll just keep my fingers crossed that all of this in general computing and technology gets removed from the front page, so you have less reason to be a Sony spokesperson in here. I'm sure the lesser exposure wouldn't make it worth the PR effort.

If you can keep me out of this discussion by direct or indirect reference this will be my final post in this thread. If, however, I see further misquotations, I'm sure you know what the result will be.

@Tomas

Quote:

Tomas wrote: Seems like there are other ps3 owners who are disappointed with lack of AA as well. thread

From the same thread:

"Console gaming. The 360 experience was pretty bad regards to AA for me too. Nothing you can do about it i'm affraid. Dropping to 720p may help but it really does depend on the individual game. It could also be the quality of your HDTV and how well it's scaling the image but I'm guessing it's not."

and

"That's the difference between PC gaming and console gaming. On a PC you've got the option of turning on anti-aliasing to whatever degree you like, as well as other things like anisotropic filtering, vertical sync (on/off) etc, etc,. Games for consoles are optimised for that console at specific resolutions, and you only get anti-aliasing if the devs built that in (the PS3 is capable of AA and AF, but the level they are applied to any given game is effectively pre-determined).

Adding AA to console games means a performance hit, and the more passes (i.e. x2, x4 etc), the higher the price gets. On balance many devs will choose to opt for higher frame rates with jaggies, than lower frame rates with smooth edges. It's a fact of life unfortunately, as devs are always trying to push the technology envelope as far as they can, to make games look as good as they can at the time. It happens with PC games too, in the sense that when new games are released many previously capable graphics cards are unable to them smoothly with AA. The difference is that with a PC you can upgrade your graphics card to match the required performance."

edit: I have to add that the game mentioned in the thread is a 720p game out of the box.

@ the rest about the AA argument

Does it really matter in the end? When I play a console, I'm usually sitting on the couch atleast 2-3 metres away from the TV or Projector screen and if there were or weren't any AA I wouldn't notice no matter which console. Sitting 30 cm's from a PC computer is a different story. But playing games at 1600x1200 on my PC setup, I don't even bother putting on AA in any of the games anyway.

Last edited by KrasH on 07-Apr-2007 at 12:16 AM.

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@Trezzer

Quote:

you can keep me out of this discussion by direct or indirect reference this will be my final post in this thread. If, however, I see further misquotations, I'm sure you know what the result will be.

I think that would be sad as you are able to contribute valuable input, only if you just keep a more open mind towards other people's opinions and perspectives and not resort to degrading comments and personal insults. I think I learned a lot from you in regard of how XBox 360 fans advocate against the PS3 and rally for the XBox 360, so anyway thanks for this.

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Apr-2007 at 08:22 AM.

@Trezzer

Quote:

attacks on anyone who address your problematic posting style (if one can call it that

Don't you get it Trezzer... we're all wrong, all of us, there is no problem with MikeB's posting style no matter how many people try to point out a problem. On a more serious note, I continue to agree with all the people who have offered the opinion that MikeB has a PRish posting style and favors whatever his current preference within the context is (PS3 now, other things before). Apparently he just can't help it and doesn't see anything wrong in it. We've discussed this over so many times, I think it is time we put it to rest.

So can we now people get back to discussing the gaming differences between PS3 and Xbox 360? Please.

Some rumble musings from me. I was playing RR6 and Virtua Tennis 3 demo on Xbox 360 and getting a feel as to how rumble contributes. It was BTW turned off by default in Virtua Tennis 3 demo. I do think it gave a bit of an added effect turning it on, to get a tactile response when the racket hits the ball (otherwise the rumble doesn't rumble at all). Not a huge difference over playing without it, so I think I could play Virtua Tennis 3 without rumble too, but I'd turn it on if it is available sure. RR6 benefits a bit more as you get tactile feedback on what kind of terrain is under then wheels.

But I still feel rumble is probably, for me, at its best in shooting games where you get a sense of the action and feel your gun when shooting... it contributes to the atmosphere quite a bit. It is also good to feel when you are getting hit etc. It is also useful for rougher action games like Motorstorm where there is so much bouncing around and crashing and rough terrain under you that you really kind of wish you'd get to feel it too instead of just seeing and hearing it. I can do better without it in games that are a bit more sterile, maybe that tennis and RR kind of racing games where I need it less. I don't miss rumble when playing Ridge Racer 7 on PS3.

Last edited by jtsiren on 07-Apr-2007 at 09:00 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 07-Apr-2007 at 09:00 AM.

@Tomas

Quote:

Seems like there are other ps3 owners who are disappointed with lack of AA as well. thread

There are some really good (as in real illustrative) screenshots in that thread about the jaggies in Ridge Racer 7. I can confirm these jaggies do exist and the car models are probably the best (as in worst) way to see them at 1080p, at 720p the surroundings get very jagged as well.





http://community.eu.playstation.com/showthread.php?t=71414

Edit: Width-contrained images, see link for full images.

Last edited by jtsiren on 07-Apr-2007 at 11:34 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 07-Apr-2007 at 08:59 AM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

Don't you get it Trezzer... we're all wrong, all of us, there is no problem with MikeB's posting style no matter how many people try to point out a problem

Not everyone sees my posting style as a problem, some people together with me don't understand what the fuss is about, people I respect who's perspective I value very much.

Regarding the screenshot can you make that a link as the image is wider than the maximum allowed width.

@jtsiren

Quote:

There are some really good (as in real illustrative) screenshots in that thread about the jaggies in Ridge Racer 7. I can confirm these jaggies do exist and the car models are probably the best (as in worst) way to see them at 1080p, at 720p the surroundings get very jagged as well.

The end result varies from TV set to TV set, I have read reports of very few jaggies on Sony 1080p Bravia TVs, I can confirm that we didn't notice anything special regarding jaggies at CeBit.

A second opinion:

"PS3 version its calmer and the texture looks rendered better. Not to mention the PS3 has a much smoother look to the objects with almost no jaggies, considerably fewer than the 360 version"

BTW, rereading some PS3 threads I have seen a lot of trollings goinf on, IMO it's telling enough you didn't get upset about 'posting styles' at all in those cases.

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Apr-2007 at 09:51 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 07-Apr-2007 at 09:21 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 07-Apr-2007 at 09:12 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Not everyone sees my posting style as a problem, some people together with me don't understand what the fuss is about, people I respect who's perspective I value very much.

Then so be it. If I were you and so many people did question my style, I'd reconsider though.

Quote:

Regarding the screenshot can you make that a link as the image is wider than the maximum allowed width.

Thanks, wasn't aware of that. I added width-attributes.

@MikeB

Quote:

The end result varies from TV set to TV set, I have read reports of very few jaggies on Sony 1080p Bravia TVs, I can confirm that we didn't notice anything special regarding jaggies at CeBit.

Look. The jaggies are there, maybe some don't see them or are bothered by them, but they are still there. At 1080p native the screen does nothing to the image (unless there is some filtering going on). Obviously screen-size contributes as well, small screen watched from a distance definitely shows less jaggies than a large watching near.

I don't understand why you try to muddy waters with comments like referencing to a Bravia. RR7 doesn't anti-alias, period. It has jaggies, I have seen them, AFAIK you haven't extensively researched this like I have for the past week. If some fanboy or someone watching with a small screen, or not really knowing what jaggies are, disagrees then who cares. I know what I see and I know my screen or setup is not scaling the image in any way. It is 1:1 what PS3 pumps out.

RR6 on Xbox 360 has jaggies as well, of course. Anti-aliasing doesn't remove jaggies, it just disguises them. Hence RR6 at 720p is less jagged than RR7 at 720p, and at times RR6 at 720p is less jagged than RR7 at 1080p.

It sounds like you want to believe the good news and when any bad reporting happens, you like to find out a quote or two to support your belief in the good news. Trust me, the RR issue is not so simple. RR6 has some things RR7 doesn't, anti-aliasing probably the most important one. Why muddy that. RR7 has enough good things on its own for me to prefer it over RR6, no doubt - so again, why try to make it sound like RR7 would be better than RR6 in those few areas where it isn't.

Unless it is a fanboy agenda.

Quote:

BTW, rereading some PS3 threads I have seen a lot of trollings goinf on, IMO it's telling enough you didn't get upset about 'posting styles' at all in those cases.

You contribute something like, just a guess, 50% of the postings in these threads. You are the most vocal person here. I tend to ignore the occasional troll (or a guy who just drops in for a post or two if I don't have anything to say to them), with you I'm having a conversation just like with e.g. Trezzer. I do pay special attention to what you say, but I do so with several other individuals as well (like Trezzer, BrianK, GregS etc.). With some others, I don't pay so much attention to them because I don't feel they are active or important participants in this conversation - not really useful in going as deep with them as with the more active guys. If they become more active, they also get more attention from me and it also makes it more clear to me what their opinions and posting-patterns are.

BTW: When I disagree with Trezzer, and I have, I tend to post that as well.

Last edited by jtsiren on 07-Apr-2007 at 11:48 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 07-Apr-2007 at 11:46 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 07-Apr-2007 at 11:46 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 07-Apr-2007 at 11:43 AM.

@jtsiren

I believe that Sony is doing something good here by getting rid of the reliance on AA.

Please bear with me. At 720p it is hard enough to see, but they are there.

At 1080p it does not matter - clearly the early games seem all to be below this resolution, but 1080p is a magic number.

The original HDTV spec of 1900 by 1200 is well above the amount that the human eye can see - that is why it was compared to 35mm film - which has a far higher actual resolution (measured in grain size).

I am not sure how 1080p translates into actual pixel resolution, but in much of the literature they are treated as equals. Even if it is a deficit between the two and 1080p falls effectively below the pixel count, it is close enough.

1080p cannot suffer from jaggies for the simple reason that such artefacts are below the threshold of human perception (measured at a distance where the ends of the screen fall at the edge of of peripheral vision). From my readings many years ago on HDTV when I was looking at the maximum effective resolution of monitors, this holy grail was seen as fundamentally important not for computers, but the transition between film stock to digital projection.

The importance in terms of computer monitors cannot be over emphasised. 1900x1200, 16:9 or 16:10 is as good as they need ever get. Much later on when screens are room sized, and focusing in on details is needed then extra resolution is useful, but that is a decade off or more (unless there is a really big breakthrough in PEDs).

Reading off a screen with the effective resolution of the printed word (perhaps even clearer text than many offset books), is a milestone not to be underrated in its significance for the long term development of the digital media.

So jaggies and no AA, may present some transitional problems, but it is the best possible solution for the midterm. Nothing is more processor intensive than AA (well that is an exaggeration but you know what I mean - why waste the processing on something that is not part of the future).

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@jtsiren

Quote:

I don't understand why you try to muddy waters with comments like referencing to a Bravia.

I was just adding another point of view, I agree your picture looks jaggie, I was just pointing out that with regard to experiencing jaggies people are having different experiences, overall though almost everyone seems to agree RR7 is visulally a step upwards from RR6.

Your experiences aren't per se worth more or less than than any other PS3 user experience and if people have a different take on things wouldn't make them just a fanboy per se.

Quote:

with e.g. Trezzer

I prefer different writing style approaches as compared to you, you don't like that I post information which backs up my perspectives, some dissing them solely as PR or fanboyism. I personally don't like heated posting styles like we have seen from Trezzer, AMiGR and a few trolls in various threads, I also don't like diversions from the topic to talk about writing styles. It's not like they don't link to PR (or fanboy) stories to back up their perspectives (for instance stories on how great the XBox 360 is and issues/worries surrounding the PS3), just what they post may be closer to your own perspectives and so you may lack the objectivity to see some similarities.

For instance you also constantly insisted I am not being fair with regard to my XBox 360 perspectives, while indeed in the past I said many nice things about the platform (in fact looking back I may have given the platform too much credit in prior threads), yet usually you fail to criticize Trezzer and others on their (often proven to be wrong afterwards) anti-PS3 statements, while in fact he hadn't even used the device himself. Do you understand your bias?

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Apr-2007 at 12:43 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 07-Apr-2007 at 12:33 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 07-Apr-2007 at 12:25 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

Look. The jaggies are there, maybe some don't see them or are bothered by them, but they are still there. At 1080p native the screen does nothing to the image (unless there is some filtering going on). Obviously screen-size contributes as well, small screen watched from a distance definitely shows less jaggies than a large watching near.

This would be absolutely true - get close to the screen and there will be jaggies. However 16:9 was designed specifically to fill the centre of vision and the peripheral vision, getting up closer than that defeats the purpose of having wide screen or HDTV resolution.

The jaggies don't disappear, they just cannot be seen.

Remembering back to when AA was new the whole purpose of it was to compensate for the poor resolutions of monitors and for no other reason. It was a quick fix for a HW shortcomings, sacrificing CPU power for viewing.

AA is still needed but not for HDTV display, pictures that are for print will need to be AA if they fall below the dpi of the printed media.

On another front, and well below my knowledge I am also interested in stereoscopic viewing.

Theoretically the peripheral resolution does not have to be very high (the lack of light receptor cells in the eye, however with overlap (parallax) viewing two frames (for left and right eye) could be handled as interlaced (the eye combining the two for central vision leaving the different interlaced frames at half the amount of vertical resolution). This should also leave jaggies invisible, but this is speculative.

I did some measurement years ago on overlapping 16:9, right and left, and good all round vision seemed theoretically possible. The ability of the eye to rotate in the socket of human beings is not very great (I think less than 15 degrees - but is was a long tome ago when I was fiddling with this stuff).

I have been waiting for well over a decade for all this stuff to begin to converge. I will be waiting for a good deal longer for 3D headsets at HDTV adapted standards. But perhaps the games, or the pornography industry may help that along in the near future.

It must of been well over 10 years ago I first experienced total immersion with a system based on an A3000 (then the only public system where you could play a game with a headset).

Ever since I have longed for a digital working environment where I was "inside the machine" so to speak.

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@MikeB

Quote:

The end result varies from TV set to TV set, I have read reports of very few jaggies on Sony 1080p Bravia TVs, I can confirm that we didn't notice anything special regarding jaggies at CeBit.

The only way you can rid of the jaggies, is by blurring the image, which will impact other details negatively.

@GregS

Quote:

Remembering back to when AA was new the whole purpose of it was to compensate for the poor resolutions of monitors and for no other reason. It was a quick fix for a HW shortcomings, sacrificing CPU power for viewing.

How come you still notice a big difference in pc games using AA even with higher resolutions? You just cannot compare CGI with real life movies or similar. Take for example a dvd watched at a pretty low res, you dont have the jaggies as apparent there.
There will indeed be less jaggies at 1080p, but it is still imo noticeable for people with a half decent tv set and normal eyesight.
And if you are right in saying that the problem with RR and todays ps3 games are due to them being upsampled from a much lower res, then how do you expect it to even be possible considering that the ps3 has already been shown to have some performance problems upscaling to 1080p even without anti alias.

Games will indeed get better at using the hardware, but i highly doubt they will get that much better.

@Tomas

Quote:

The only way you can rid of the jaggies, is by blurring the image, which will impact other details negatively.

That's only true if you blur everything, with AA you only need to blur edges, 3D chips have been capable of this for some time.
That said AA isn't really "bluring", it's similar but not the same thing - it's actually oversampling.
If you could AA by blurring it would take a lot less resources.


AA is the one clear area which the 360 has an advantage over the PS3 in, it can use it's EDRAM buffer for AA whereas the PS3 doesn't have EDRAM. However it's not totally clean cut as the EDRAM buffer is too small to do higher resolutions in one go, data has to be moved in and out of main RAM in tiles and not only slows things down but seems to complicate rendering quite a bit.

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