@Cod3r

Sorry but I have seen nearly no support for 68k (Amiga classic) HW projects, if someone want to di things he would be forced doing it by preorders.


BTW.:
Coldfire is not compatible enough as an CPU under 68k AOS3.x, some commands are not compatible and can't be emulated via exceptions, I have seen it, a lot of people told it and some tried it without success.

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AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@itix

Quote:

itix wrote: There is already an Amiga clone, Minimig. To build proper Amiga clone you have to emulate custom chips and that is beyound your minimum-costs budget.

The Minimig is a typical project to show how free and open hardware designs are waisted (not used), even if they would have a high potential to be used for low spec game consoles up to relative high speed Amiga desktop replacements.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@jingof

Oh, I understand... it is unreleased. Sounds very interesting to me. Maybe some of my work could be contributed to their project, at least the code I made, if nothing else.

And I just checked out the Ouya console... honestly, since that is an Arm processor core and a well supported one at that, I wouldn't be surprised if ported Amiga emulators for it don't pop up soon after its release. It would almost be elementary to port an emulator to it.

Unless you mean natively... hahaha... I don't know about all that! I'd have to port the whole OS to work on ARM natively. Unless you mean like Aros' ARM version, which is really just a linux app, not an OS by an stretch of the imagination. More like a virtual machine.

In short, Ouya is an Android-based ARM SoC in a shiny box. I would tell you what board it is based on (and existing products that use the same one), and it is one of my company's supply partners. Saying who would give it away who I work for. I don't want to get fired for talking too much.

But the pics sure do look good. That's where i'll leave it

Quote:

jingof wrote: @Cod3r Quote: I wonder how Natami owners speak of their systems, I can't find any reviews of it. Last I heard, Natami was still in development. I don't think anyone has one yet. Anyone else have more news on that? Quote: there is almost no purpose of my project, because it duplicates an effort already realized Well, if you can't beat 'em.. join 'em. Check out the natami forums, maybe you want to get involved? Or not.. just that firmware skills good enough to boot Workbench in your spare time are a rare and valuable thing in this community. So, maybe you can redirect your efforts, instead of abandoning them on grounds of "someone is already doing it". Or better yet... boot Amiga Workbench on this thing: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-video-game-console Wouldn't THAT be awesome!

Last edited by Cod3r on 14-Jul-2012 at 12:21 PM.

@TrevorDick

Greetings. I don't mean that I named it Workbench, I used it as a generic term to refer to the OS. I'm not used to Amiga terminology, what is the proper term?

And congratulations on the accomplishment of the Amigaone x1000. I can appreciate the immense effort involved in that. If I didn't have tens of thousands in school loans to pay back, i'd buy one myself.

Quote:

TrevorDick wrote: @Cod3r Quote: And I called it Workbench I think you might find that this is already a licensed trademark? TrevorD

@Dirk-B

You mean like an SBC for a PCI backplane? If so, that could be done, quite easily (in my mind). Obviously, the problem would be convincing the higher ups that making of run of PCI boards would be profitable.

I have a ton of ideas, and I don't want to misrepresent myself, but I personally only have programming knowledge and work full-time for a company with the resources to manufacture. I personally don't have any! Anything I say is hypothetical to TRY to convince them that my side-project is worth something other than a cool toy.

@Hypex

Never heard of it. But that means nothing, I am new to many of the commercial projects done for Amiga. The only ones I heard of during my research was the X1000 by Amigaone, the Minimig and a Power PC netbook that I never heard anything else about, over a year ago. I am sorry to admit that if it doesn't hit Engadget or Slashdot, I probably don't know about it.

Regarding CF, basically in a simplified answer, they are not binary compatible, but the assembly syntax is. You could write the same mnemonics and they would do equivalent functions on either the 68k or the CF, but the resultant binary code produced by the assembler would not be the same.

And essentially, yes-Neither ColdFire or PPC are binary compatible to 68k. ColdFire is closer only in assembly syntax and some elements of design and company lineage. PPC is based off a collaboration between Freescale, IBM and someone else who I can't remember at this point. PPC isn't a Freescale only design.

The only thing I can say about the lack of ColdFire designs on the market is maybe because it isn't really popular outside of the embedded system sector. PPC at least had desktop and server-based systems which programmers and DIY engineers would be familiar with. Most of us who use Freescale stuff in professional work get training materials and support from Freescale.

Quote:

Hypex wrote: @Cod3r wow! What you've described sounds almost like a Dragon ColdFire. http://www.elbox.com/news_04_12_17.html It never came out. Well I never saw it. IIRC the CF core doesn't have bit rotations or shifts or something similar making it incompatible? Being able to set an interrupt vector to catch and simulate unsupported instructions would help. But the lack of any ColdFire Amiga accelerators on the market would suggest it's a lot harder than that and that practically the difference between 68K and CF is almost the same as 68K and PPC.

@Cod3r

If you can put it on a pci-card for a computer with pci-slots then
you have already an Atari, if i did understand it right.

As you are a programmer, maybe you could add more retro
computers to your card. I am sure there is a retro-market now.

From that point you could choose the best going system and
make a product out of it. I for example would like to have an
Atari inside my A1G3SE, just for the fun of it.

_________________
A1G3-SE + OS4.1 u1 iso (x2)

@Nataline

You're absolutely right, that's what I meant. Not that I was misappropriating a company's trademark for my own use.

Quote:

Nataline wrote: @TrevorDick Quote: TrevorDick wrote: @Cod3r [quote]And I called it Workbench I think you might find that this is already a licensed trademark?

I assume he meant "called it Workbench in the first post", not "named my creation Workbench".
[/quote]

@g_kraszewski

1. Thanks for the advice, but since i'm no lawyer-I wouldn't even about taking on such an endeavor myself. Honestly, I can't understand why anyone would license the name and not be affiliated with the original company. Maybe i'm missing something. Amiga is not that interesting of a name to me. In fact, "girl" in Spanish is anything but when it comes to a computer. I think the product should be worth more than its name.

2. Well, the reason I focused on ColdFire was because it was already there, and I had to make firmware for the prototype anyway and it wasn't much work to do it (relatively speaking). If I were to build from scratch, I would obviously aim for the top or beyond. But alas, i'm just a code monkey... don't have that kind of influence in the company.

I have a question: If Amiga is all about PPC, then why doesn't the OS better support the target hardware?

Obviously, I can't speak about Morph OS or AmigaOS 4 (I never seen the code), but I looked at Aros, and it doesn't support multi-core CPUs. So how are you going to use the potential of say, an Amigaone x1000, to its full potential? It would be like driving a Lamborghini with half its cylinders in use.

Do MorphOS and AmigaOS suffer from that same problem?

Quote:

g_kraszewski wrote: @Cod3r 1. Stay away from the "Amiga" trademark. In spite of it having no serious value currently, its history is an endless range of lawsuits. 2. The real development of nowadays Amiga-compatible systems is on PowerPC. Look at MorphOS and AmigaOS 4. Power users won't be interested in 200 MHz ColdFire, while they work on well above 1.0 GHz PowerPC. Retro fans won't be interested unless you deliver them a functional replica of A1200.

@Cod3r

To be short, time and money...

_________________
A1G3-SE + OS4.1 u1 iso (x2)

@itix

Emulating chips is easy if you know the specs. With FPGA, that is very simple. Heck, if you know what you're doing, you can do it in software alone.

Regarding the custom chips-I have to be honest, I did what I did in my spare time, and I was able to do it without too much hassle. Of course, my implementation is far from perfect, but it isn't impossible to be close to it. With today's technology, a competent design team with the proper tools could bash out a clone in no time. The original Amiga was advanced for its time, but today's tech easily can emulate it (including custom chips) without breaking a sweat.

From what I read about Minimig, it uses an original 68k cpu. I use binary translation on ColdFire. Not the same. And at the speed it runs at, it really isn't an upgrade to what the original Commodore did before (please correct me if i'm wrong).

Quote:

itix wrote: @Cod3r There is already an Amiga clone, Minimig. To build proper Amiga clone you have to emulate custom chips and that is beyound your minimum-costs budget. Now if you cant include custom chip emulation you cant expect to sell more than few tens.

@Cod3r

Hi - my 2 cents ... An Amiga / Atari / FPGA on a PCI card would be ideal from my point of view - no additional PSU / case / monitor / cables etc. required. Not sure if anything like that already exists - but I'd prefer to buy something like that over a separate system.

Good job on your work so far - wish I had such skills.

Thanks,

J

@Cod3r

aros is undergoing major redesigns and the 68k version is far from stable, except it is pretty fresh in the works. not all amiga software will run on it. if you find anything to contribute to aros please do so, as it is the only amiga-compatible solution that can me rushed as community effort without those constant legal considerations, secrecy, projects started/abandoned/sources lost/closed tragedy.
speaking of 68k, i cant really believe coldfire is the way. too many tried and failed. to name another alternative there is fpgaarcade, along with a 060/100 daughter board in the making.
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=55885

but do as you are convinced to. by the way some demonstration of what you have done could be helpful, before anything can be really said..

@Arko

I understand. That's why I ask you guys about it. I don't know what is worth sharing or not. I just did it in my spare time. If 68k Amiga is dead, so be it. Maybe I can apply the work I did to another platform that still supports 68k. It cost me nothing but time.

Maybe I can help provide something else for Amiga. I am still learning. Amiga is an interesting platform.

I regards to using ColdFire to emulate 68k, it can and has been done already. It isn't as hard as you think, if you know what you're doing. That is the most solid part of what I've done. Lets just say HOW you emulate is paramount. If a programmer doesn't understand proper implementation techniques, they will try the easy (and seemingly obvious) way and later run into compatibility problems.

Quote:

Arko wrote: @Cod3r Sorry but I have seen nearly no support for 68k (Amiga classic) HW projects, if someone want to di things he would be forced doing it by preorders. BTW.: Coldfire is not compatible enough as an CPU under 68k AOS3.x, some commands are not compatible and can't be emulated via exceptions, I have seen it, a lot of people told it and some tried it without success.

@Dirk-B

I myself have little to no experience making PCBs. I just used a SBC prototype manufactured by the company I work for as at target for my work.

I made the prototype emulate an Atari ST. That was quite easy, to be honest. I was going to make it do more powerful Atari stuff but I got bored when I saw how easy it was. Then I focused on Amiga... much more exciting and rewarding.

If could start a little side business making retro stuff, that would be awesome. Even if I didn't make money, just for the fun of it, that would be cool.

I think a PCI card version could easily be made, if you simply used the motherboard as a backplane. But if you want to have it interface (by routing video and i/o) with the native hardware on the motherboard... possible, but would take LOTS of effort, IMHO. I might need some help there!

Quote:

Dirk-B wrote: @Cod3r If you can put it on a pci-card for a computer with pci-slots then you have already an Atari, if i did understand it right. As you are a programmer, maybe you could add more retro computers to your card. I am sure there is a retro-market now. From that point you could choose the best going system and make a product out of it. I for example would like to have an Atari inside my A1G3SE, just for the fun of it.

@Jez

Thank you for the input! PCI card with Amiga capabilities seems like a popular idea. Too bad we don't already have something like that. I'd need to get some of our engineers in on that idea...

@wawa

Interesting. I didn't know the history of Amiga OS and legal situations involved.

Regarding Aros, I am glad you said it and not me, because I didn't want to offend anyone's work, but from a coding standpoint... ouch. A hodgepodge of code. It isn't pretty. I'm surprised that it works as well as it does. I spent four months just improving them enough to be more compatible!

Other than my salary, I have no money to make anything. My bosses have the big bucks and contracts, I was going to run it by them to see if they would go for it.

I don't make enough money after my expenses to market a thing. Education costs in the U.S. are ridiculous. I almost went broke despite having a Masters degree before I got this job. That is OT though...

Regarding a demostration, I guess maybe I could take pics or video of it in action, but working where I do, we are all bound to NDA's. I cannot show a picture of their hardware to anyone unless they have already released it.

I have to re-iterate that I didn't design the hardware. Just the firmware, some of the IP cores for emulating the chips (although, I did re-write some GPL code from another project), and the Aros 68k fixes are my work.

If I showed the hardware on the net and if they found out, i'd probably get canned. Not sure, but lets say I would rather let them in on it before I leak pics of their stuff on the net. I will ask my immediate supervisor on Monday his opinion, as this is my first mention of it in public ever.

Quote:

wawa wrote: @Cod3r aros is undergoing major redesigns and the 68k version is far from stable, except it is pretty fresh in the works. not all amiga software will run on it. if you find anything to contribute to aros please do so, as it is the only amiga-compatible solution that can me rushed as community effort without those constant legal considerations, secrecy, projects started/abandoned/sources lost/closed tragedy. speaking of 68k, i cant really believe coldfire is the way. too many tried and failed. to name another alternative there is fpgaarcade, along with a 060/100 daughter board in the making. http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=55885 but do as you are convinced to. by the way some demonstration of what you have done could be helpful, before anything can be really said..

@Cod3r

if you are under nda not allowed to show the hardware its hard to believe you could market it as a side project. and honestly its hard to believe a serious company will be interested in producing amiga compatibles. may i ask what did you need to do to make aros work, except recompiling for coldfire and adapting bootstrap, which is still designed for special situations such as original hardware or winuae. also you could propose your patches to aros dev team:

https://www.hepe.com/mailman/listinfo/aros-dev/

or i may establish a contact if need be.

on the other hand, since you are already running 68k emu on coldfire i have to ask, why coldfire? there are much faster cpu alternatives to run 68k emu on.

@Cod3r

Hopefully this will clarify a few things for you...

The Workbench trademark is currently registered by Cloanto, it's perfectly fine to use it when your talking about your project here as it's easy to understand what you mean when talking about it, but obviously you cant use the Workbench name in a commercial product without seeking the appropriate permission...

The Amiga is not about PPC, though a lot of people wish it was...

People who say they see no support for 68k Amigas have their own agenda and will try to dissuade you from going that route but as you have clearly stated your project is 68K assembly based and the vast majority of Amiga users are still 68K based classic hardware users, so a 68K based project is still your biggest market here...

Also there are still companies/ individuals around who do produce new hardware for 68K Amigas, things like the FastATA IDE board and the OCA 030 accelerator board....

The NatAmi was what most of us were really looking forward to but that project seems to be in limbo right now and sadly is looking unlikely to ever happen, which is a shame as it promised to be from it's specs the almost ideal solution to what us classic 68K Amiga users had been waiting on...

As for the Amiga name... yes it's very important as arguments over it and a certain USA company on these forum have proven over the past two years. Sadly though using the Amiga name would be next to impossible and is mired in legal controversy & crap, so it's obviously best to come up a new name for a final product...

To me your first goal should be to get as fully functioning an emulation as possible working first on your project (including all the Amiga custom chips) before even thinking about adding things like USB support etc...

The idea of a new alternative 68K based system is appealing to the vast majority of Amiga users (as I said they are still the largest Amiga group around) so really it all depends on how well you can implement this as your going to have to compete with things like the MiniMig and FPGA Replay Board and so it would have to be at least equal if not better to have a chance of succeeding, which I sincerely hope you do...

_________________

About Natami: It's not clear, what the real state of the project is...

Thomas Hirsch didn't write any more in the Natami Forum, so that there is not clear, what the point is...

But the videos in the Natami Forum have been really promising.

So if you could help Thomas Hirsch to finish his project, that would be awesome.

_________________
Sometimes we give people a lot of credit just because they're writing nice sentences even if it isn't adding up to much.