@Eric_S

Quote:

Fixed.

LOL! Good point.

Actually, I would like one myself (and not least because it would offer a better bang for my buck than upgrading any of my existing Macs).

Cheers,
Rich

Duplicate post. Deleted.

Last edited by evilrich on 13-Jan-2005 at 08:30 AM.

@RobertDupuy

Just because there is no discussion on the value side does not mean there is not one at this precise moment. I could talk ( again ) about the value side to me, but that would probably bore you.

You could say "if you can succeed without being superior then why bother" being the ultimate implication of this. I disagree, the implication of this to me is that if you can succeed without various aspects of the package being superior then you need to be superior in other ways to counterbalance it.

The kernel of the Amiga package that has been taken from the aged classic design to the modern is the Amiga Operating System ( AmigaOS ) now in revision 4. That is the opportunity apon which to build. Maybe in some way for those chosing Amiga it is the OS that they feel is superior, or maybe eventually it is some of the application software built on top of it. Face it, most kids in 1989 bought A500s for Shadow Of The Beast 2 and not after having to reach for the kleenex over the spec sheet.

Quote:

of course, you can say, Amiga isn't about being the non-windows choice...its about being an Amiga. Except then it would be oh-so helpful, if the Amiga was superior in some way.

The ways in which it currently IS superior maybe don't matter a damn to you, so what is useful information is in what realistic ways do you want to see it progress to being superior? What would make it superior to you other than the just the generic hardware arms race?

The point is, if you are here, now, you have the chance to influence the work that goes on over the next 3-5 years. Either through discussion points or through using the productivity software ( and feeding back to the authors whats wrong, what could be enhanced ) or by writing your own or by contributing drivers or by contributing to the OS.

There are many ways TO contribute. But no one can wave a magic wand and make it all right for every prospective buyer at this moment - it requires hard graft, the kind of hard graft that is hidden from most consumers behind a company brand image and a glossy brochure.

I think what I am saying to you is that you need to move from just asking the obvious questions to providing some pencilled in answers ( in your opinion ) as to the way it should go. That would be useful input that would be highly appreciated.

Dave.

@Atheist

Quote:

I don't think that there is a huge amount of people that are yearning for a Mac, personally.

Huh? Hasn't every second post here alone convinced you.
If anything, a lot of people will buy one just to compliment their PC systems.... I need a PC but lets try out a Mac.......making it cheaper makes it a no-brainer.

Quote:

Well, they (PS3, X-B2) still aren't "personal" computers.

Actually, the XBox2 is going to become a PC after a year. MS have announced that 6 months after launch there will be a HD option, and 6 months after that it will become a fully fledged PC. Unsure how they are going to accomplish x86 compatability or if they are going to close it entirely and just allow their own recompiled apps to be run.

As I never cease to mention MS want to allow other manufacturers to build their XBoxes to outclone Sony.....so perhaps KMOS can rebrand them as Amigas and port OS4 to it...MS makes money off the games afterall and are hardly threatened by Amiga, surely....So we'd run the newest games automatically and autoboot into OS4 if there's no disc inserted....It'd feel like the Amiga of old....Ha......

Slightly OT....That Sony Cell chip.....Errrr....Is it on its own chip or is it being integrated into the PowerPC chips?

Quote:

I don't know how it happens, but when something new like this appears, it always seems as though, a month later, 5 other companies are making the same thing.

Oh you just wait and see what the PC manufactuers are going to do now....There'll be a new revolution of small PCs.....We have to beat the rush with the uA1. Damn it....we may already be too late.

Quote:

I am saying, that, Mac mini won't drown out AmigaOne, and that it will be very badly hurt by the 2 video game systems that are coming out soon.

And so will an Amiga....but now we have 2 war fronts instead of just one. I don't count Wintel as a front, as that battle is lost anyway....We're talking about alternative hardware buyers.

Ok. Going back to my happy place now.

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

The Mini is just the beginning.

Apple will move to the next level and take a role similar to that of Sony. Just like Pixar is the new Disney, Apple will out-Sony Sony. MS is not the target but it will finally have serious competition.

The Mini's specs aren't all that hot but with a half gig of RAM it will run fantastic. A cheap could be had for cheaper from a PC vendor but it would always be just another scrappy system with low quality mobo, integrated graphics and a 500Mb RAM limit. Yes you could build your own decent PC, and you will, but millions won't want to. On the software side there would be no comparison to the shear number of high quality applications you get with the Mac. Many Windows users are looking for greener pastures and Mac OS X is a delight. Many just want to hook thier relatives up with something that won't require so many tech support calls. I've been checking many PC Tech boards for reaction on this. The response is often "no more recommending Dell".

You Amigans should be happy about this for more reasons than one. Because by solidifying an alternative platform you not only have one more non MS choice but also platform dependencies in things like the Web and file formats will be kept to a minimum allowing the future entry of further alternative platforms.


P.S. The RAM is user upgradable standard RAM you would would buy for a PC. You do not void the warrantee by successfully adding RAM yourself. It will work with either an LCD, a CRT or your Telly, but only one display at a time. Apple has a long time reputation for quality products and responsive customer service. A 1.2GHz G4 is plenty fast, even with the next version of OS X. The best reason not to buy is to wait for Tiger to come out so you get that free too - it would be wrong to just copy it from a mate just because Apple doesn't include any copy protection.

Last edited by BukkY on 13-Jan-2005 at 10:14 AM.
Last edited by BukkY on 13-Jan-2005 at 09:46 AM.
Last edited by BukkY on 13-Jan-2005 at 09:04 AM.

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

BigBentheAussie wrote: Unsure how they are going to accomplish x86 compatability or if they are going to close it entirely and just allow their own recompiled apps to be run.

The Phantom?

_________________

@BrianK

Quote:

MSN Music, MusicMatch, Napster, and Walmart are the one's I can think of. Haven't heard of OD2 but okay.

That's because they don't sell to you. They supply the goods to the shops that sell to end users. If you wanted to start a shop and not bother with all of the technicalities yourself (regarding record labels) you'd give OD2 a ring and merely create a front-end for their business.

Here's a bit of info on OD2 for you.

Quote:

Good answer. It does depend on the way the music was encoded, the type and quality of output of the player, the type of system/speakers/headphones, etc. One can obviously make bad choices in those areas and end up with better or worse sounding tones.

Well, it's really mostly the first point and then the source material. Some types of recordings end up sounding better with certain codecs. It's all just math really.

Anyway, we're getting a bit off track and I shan't be back for the rest of the day. Enjoy guys - and like evilrich pointed out this machine isn't for the geeks. They're for everyone else - and then some geeks ;)

@DaveP

Quote:

What would make it superior to you other than the just the generic hardware arms race?

I see your point....but the hardware is what made the Amiga famous....The appreciation of the OS was secondary(in my eyes at least).... People bought the Amiga for games initally and then started to be interested in the OS side of things, and the great games made people interested in general computing and programming. IMO the great OS in itself wasn't the catalyst for the Amiga, it was the games. If people were just interested in the more boring(compared to games) OS side, they would have bought PCs. So to reclaim the allure of an Amiga for the masses it needs to be the most powerful.....no matter what the cost... Of course....contadicting myself......there's no point having power if there is no software to take advantage of it.....like flashy games.....which made the Amiga so great.... C'mon the Amiga was a console...that could be used as a computer..... Realistically its impossible to compete with today's hardware without some serious money....So I guess its full steam ahead...taking pride in a light OS....... I really dunno what I'm trying to say here........Anyway, I have a few ideas as to what could rectify this situation....and it mostly has to do with the Amiga's retro image(retro becoming all the rage)....but maybe I'll make this the topic of another thread.

Ok. Going back to my happy place now.

Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 13-Jan-2005 at 09:13 AM.

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@Theodosius

Quote:

The Phantom?

What about the Phantom? Its an x86 in a box that plays PC games(well, its WindowsCE I think with DirectX)....They don't have a compatability problem...Hmmm.but perhaps a trivial recompilation is required anyway...The XBox2 is said to be going PowerPC so they'll be incompatable, one would think to x86 PC software. Everything that runs on it would need to be recompiled.....And...the way MS makes money from game manufacturers so will they do with applications now....You won't be able to release an App for the Xbox2 PC without giving MS its cut. Errrr....I guess that screws over an Amiga based on XBox2 then... Damn!!!

Ok. Going back to my happy place now.

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@BigBentheAussie

Originally in the UK most people bought Atari -ST because it was 100 UKP cheaper and "did the same"

Then some games came out for the Amiga 500 that were superior to the ST games, or started to come out first, and people switched. People started to see that 100UKP more expensive as a kind of brand thing ( its expensive but its better ).

Then, as you say, people got into productivity software too.

Then, the OS.

I even remember, before Amiga became popular, it being given away as a prize on some daytime BBC2 gameshow.

I guess what Im saying ( and Id like to discuss this on another thread too ) is that we need to work backwards. The OS is now good enough to write and support stable productivity software. Eventually the productivity software will be good enough to support an good end user environment. Some time after that we might see some killer entertainment software that comes out on AOS first and then other platforms after a year ( or never comes out on it ) that gets talked about as being the dogs cogs.

Just my guess:

Those that were interested enough in getting the OS working, testing it, writing hobby tools enough to buy an A1 : 500-800.

Those that are interested in the OS, compilers and hobby tools enough to buy an A1 plus OS4 in some guise = 3000

Those that will be interested in the productivity software enough to buy an A1 plus OS4 in some guise alongside another computer = 3000 ( Q4 2005? )

Those that will be interested in the results of the developers and users of productivity software output and who will come on board when there are sufficient free packages bundled into the OS CD ( e.g. open office ) = 5000 ( Q2 2006? )

Those that will be interested in the entertainment package, the new hardware, the Amiga specific games and productivity software that is starting to get used all over and people are bleating "why isnt there a linux port of this ( answer, developers like to get paid asshole )" and considering that when they next buy some new kit they will maybe get one of these new fangled Amiga complete systems retailing for 800USD ( 400UKP ) with the funky keyboards and mice = 50,000 ( Q1 2007???)

Dave.

@BigBentheAussie

was meant to be a bad joke in reference to x86 compatibility, oh well looksw like the moment was killed

_________________

P.S. The RAM is user upgradable standard RAM you would would buy for a PC. You do not void the warrantee by successfully adding 3rd party RAM yourself. It will work with either an LCD, a CRT or your Telly, but only one display at a time. Apple has a long time reputation for quality products and responsive customer service. A 1.2GHz G4 is plenty fast, even with the next version of OS X - have 500Mb RAM or more for best results. The best reason not to buy is to wait for Tiger to come out so you get that free too - it would be wrong to just copy it from a mate just because Apple doesn't include any copy protection whatsoever.

Last edited by BukkY on 13-Jan-2005 at 10:18 AM.

@BukkY

Quote:

You Amigans should be happy about this for more reasons than one. Because by solidifying an alternative platform you not only have one more non MS choice but also platform dependencies in things like the Web and file formats will be kept to a minimum allowing the future entry of further alternative platforms.

I think that's spot on, more alternatives to Windows can only be a good thing right now.

My Dad has ordered a Mac Mini with 512mb or RAM


WOOT!!!!

@Trezzer

Quote:

Microsoft's main market is the world.

Microsoft has $$ to do what Apple is doing i.e. it?s a matter of focus. This focus is best illustrated by Microsoft?s survey programs. Microsoft is not specifically targeting the publishing market.

Quote:

Now Apple is targeting a lot of potential markets with this product: makes a nice STB

For a PPC G4 with OF solution; it's a nice board.

Quote:

The HP machine that came closest had XP Home, integrated intel graphics card, no cd writer, no firewire and so on. To be totally fair it doesn't seem the SR1000Z series is sold here

Note that www.apple.de sells thier MAC-Mini at 499 Euros or ~$660.67 USD.

Both MAC-Mini's $499 USD and HP's SR1000Z series are in the American context.

Quote:

I know some people over the 'net who use PCs, but most people I talk to IRL have either been mac users for some time or just switched.

Have you tried looking for embedded CPU market share?

Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2005 at 12:04 PM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

.....so perhaps KMOS can rebrand them as Amigas and port OS4 to it...MS makes money off the games afterall and are hardly threatened by Amiga, surely....So we'd run the newest games automatically and autoboot into OS4 if there's no disc inserted....It'd feel like the Amiga of old....Ha......

Now THAT is actually an exciting idea! If only I don't have this nagging belief that EyeTech wouldn't do it, nor 'allow' (via some unknown but undiscussed to public licensing agreement) the port to happen, or KMOS/AInc thinking they're somehow going to make $ on hardware.....that would be a truly excellent solution to jumpstart Amiga 'at the right price'!

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@Trezzer

Quote:

Regarding Intel/AMD I'll trust your word. It still doesn't change that you need additional power to run the necessary maintenance/protection software in Windows though. They do slow the machine significantly

Not in my old test machine i.e. I can reconfig my old K7 test box to duplicate HP's SR1000Z series.

Quote:

And Java and SDL etc. - these days cross-platform development is an easy thing to do.

Java is nice (I prefer dotGNU or dotNET) but SDL is for DirectX-2D style applications.

Quote:

Thank you for the clarification on UPnP. I just haven't seen it used ever. OpenTalk is used extensively in OS X though.

Refer to Intel's Centrino marketing hype....

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Trezzer

Quote:

Of course it does. I said extra firewalls, since the built-in one doesn't really cut the mustard. I wouldn't let a Windows machine be directly online (as opposed to behind NAT) with just the standard firewall.

I just use the standard Windows XP SP2 Firewall (with NX enabled). PS; I have Trend Micro Security 2004/Adware/S&D to double check on such issues.

Quote:

Anyway the anti-virus tools will be the ones sucking the most cpu juice.

Are you claiming MacOS X is virus free?

Quote:

Again you make assumptions. A second ago you were talking about business markets and now you talk about gaming?

Gaming/entrainment is an example for not to generalise on such issues.

Quote:

I'm talking about real life applications here

Are we going to revisit Barefeats benchmarks?

Quote:

Try editing a movie on a Windows machine with an 867MHz P4 or AMD.

What level of movie editing? AMD A64 @800Mhz with same modern i/o subsystem and sufficient memory can still handle Ulead's Video Studio 7 SE video editing.

The sustain computation performance is only as good as your I/O.

Last edited by Hammer on 13-Jan-2005 at 12:02 PM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Atheist
Quote:

I was only trying to say, in an 8 to 10 year old OS, a rather basic game didn't work. That I found surprising. Of course on the other hand, there are SO MANY configurations and components in x86 boxes, that ANYTHING might be behind that flaw.

Sure, but yet on a 20 year old platform (Amiga), many original games don't work. Again, not a valid point as far as I'm concerned. The platform evolves, some APIs change, the kernel evolves...etc. Same as for AOS, but at a much faster speed. No argument on the variety of x86 hardware, and it's annoyed me in the past, even installing Windows on a new SATA disk system (pre SP2 doesn't natively have usable drivers). The occasional price you pay for new hardware.


Quote:

Here I'm mistaken, I may be mixing apples and apples. From what I understand, an AOS4.0 port to Macs is most unlikely because their HW is closed, proprietery. Also, they have many different machines, and each one would have to be compiled for separately, too, I'd imagine.

Ahhh, ok...you were talking about the hardware, not OS X! So...Apple's proprietary hardware is somehow different from Amiga One proprietary hardware...how, aside from using a standard Open Firmware? Linux runs fine on mac hardware, AOS could do, if it were truly desired/pursued. Might even have working USB2 and firewire then! But I really think KMOS/EyeTech/AInc somehow think they're going to make money out of hardware, which would be a shame because it could kill the OS longterm instead,

The Mac hardware is reasonably standard, at least within the same series. A pair of graphics cards per generation, a single IDE controller, etc...it wouldn't be terrible, nor if something like the mini was targetted as the initial AOS4 platform.

Quote:

I know this: > If I need to re-install, it doesn't take 1 hour, and trips to multiple websites > There are CLI commands that are effective (linux does too, moreso, but the complexity, yeesh!) > Easily reversible installs > Ram: disk > Rad: > Easily movable programs > Boots off of CD or DVD or CF or Zip or USB, in totality > Instant shut down > No DLLs > No registry > Bigger icons (or at least there were) > No multi-user/password stuff Basically, it does things I need, and the other OSs' don't, and/or their shortcomings in other areas, make the few things on this list they do offer, useless.

In order-
Easily reversible installs- OS X is great at this. Drag the app into the trashcan, it's gone. Poof. Same for easily movable programs.

RAM: Disk- exists on every current/modern OS.

Boots off CD or DVD or CF or Zip or USB, in totality- so can OS X or Linux, or BSD. The booting mechnism is more a function of hardware than the OS for the most part. The _size_ of the image required does change, but now that you've introduced CDs and DVDs into the mix, I can boot a Windows Pre-Execution Environment off a small portion of a CD...not that I'd generally want to.

Instant shutdown
This one I _really_ don't get. Is it nice? Yes. But you DO realize the reason for this is the Amigas file system is dated, and doesn't cache filesystem reads and writes in memory? This means slower filesystem performance compared to a caching filesystem. Once AOS enters the 'performance stage' with a caching filesystem, the potential for lost data on powering off now exists. So, slow filesystem, or 'instant off'? A great combination of course, would be a battery backed cache for the 'normal' filesystem, like RAID controllers have....or to run entirely from a sold state device (like CF, SD, etc), but then you have the same possibility with the other OSes as well.

No DLLs

Do you KNOW what DLLs are? Dynamic Link Library? Sounds somewhat familiar to hmm...shared libary? Guess what, AOS has them, and has the same problems, as does Linux, BSD, OS X, and other systems out there...although rarely as badly as Windows where every other app wants to replace a systems DLLs with it's own.

No Registry
Amen. One point. Oh wait, I never once said I LIKE Windows...Linux, OS X, BSD, Solaris, etc etc....none have registries.

Bigger Icons
Umm...you mean bigger as in size? As in the fact you can scale icons on OS X, Linux, Windows, etc to whatever size you'd like (within reason)? Nope, no difference.,

Multi-user/password 'stuff'
So....with no 'multi-user/password stuff,' that would mean everyone runs as the equivalent of an administrative users. let me think of a famous OS that does that, and consistently gets beat up for that idea on a system that is networked on the Internet. What was it's name? Oh yes, WINDOWS. I know the idea of 'root' to non Unix users is a bit odd and takes some getting used to, but I can assure you, it's significantly safer for your system and your data, than only a single user system.

CLI
*NIX command lines are 'different.' In the *NIX world, they have this not so bad philosophy- do one thing, and do it well. And then allow it to be used as a building block with other tools. That lets you build up several commands via pipes to do something 'greater than the sum of it's parts'...like finding every text file more than 2 years old, sorting it, and emailing yourself a copy of the results...in a 'single command'. Yet simple things are still simple. You may be overwhelmed by the number of options for some Unix commands, but generally, for the task you want, the default options/default command 'does the right thing.'

When you first bought your first Amiga....however did you possibly learn how to use it? I mean, the Timex Sinclair had 4k of memory, so how did you learn 'what to do' with more memory? Oh, and AmigaDOS? And workbench? They were new to you then, yet you learned them, and somewhere along the line, learned to love AOS. Yet you do a huge disservice to expect that any other OS should somehow take _significantly less time_ to learn. If you want to compare GUIs, then compare GUIs. I'd expect OSX or BeOS to fare pretty well for 'ease of initial use to be productive' versus AOS. Yet you admittedly haven't tried other OSes for anywhere near as long as it took you to become familiar with AOS...so make incorrect judgements.

Again, this is simply about providing _correct_ information instead of the FUD and 'I think, therefore it must be true' type of mess computer rag editors seem to like to use. I know you personally love AOS, and that's great, but think before saying 'everything else is garbage,' especially when I haven't seen a single item you've said to back it up.

Hmm..Atheist, if I gave you VNC access to OS X, or a Linux box I set up 'just for you'....would you USE it and give it a chance long enough to understand some of what I'm trying to get across to you here? Or would you instead look at it for a minute then say, 'I like AOS, AOS is going to take over the world because it rox'? (Yes, I'm being serious...I could/would give you remote access to 'look.'

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@BukkY

Quote:

shear number of high quality applications you get with the Mac

Which to be fair is still dwarfed by decent Windows applications.

Quote:

Mac OS X is a delight

That's a matter of opinion.

Quote:

...hook thier relatives up with something that won't require so many tech support calls

I'm not sure if the Mac really is a tech support panacea. I would hazard a guess that one of the main reasons there are fewer tech support requests is that there are far, far fewer Macs.

_________________
Sam