@DAX

Quote:

DAX wrote: @Hammer As usual we'll follow everything up popcorn in hand

AMD Southern Islands already includes AMD64 MMU kitbash, basic out-of-order processing, unified L2 cache coherency and 'etc'.

Last edited by Hammer on 24-Jun-2011 at 09:26 AM.

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Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
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@WolfToTheMoon
In the mainstream they make huge investments up-front for a product (say PS3) that sells at a huge loss for every unit.
They forecast sales figures and plan on getting their money back (in spades of course) with ingenious strategies that only large scales can sustain.
However what happen if the product is refused by the public? They cancel it, and move on licking their injuries for the big hit they got.

On Amiga we don't have such a thing. Probably the sole advantage of selling at a profit (even though this method generates expensive products) is that you can make just a few pieces as demand goes, sell them, profit from them and move on to the next as long as there is demand for it (that's what Acube did up untill now).
Prices can go down but only at certain levels (never the levels of those that sell at a loss) and only if demand raises, for which you need a more appealing product (OS5?).
Little by little they could get there.
When you can produce in small numbers as demand goes, the question is more "will the prices go down" as expensive machines for a selected niche can still be made and sold at a profit for smaller numbers (but of course everyone hopes cheaper products will be made too eventually. We'll see...)

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@Hammer
Quote:

Why would one take away the integrated SIMD array? MS Visual Studio 2010 C++ AMP complied programs recommends to have DX11 GpGPU (aka SIMD array).

To check the actual core power, then you can still add far more powerful stream arrays on an external GPU.
Yes I know you can make a cross fire with the internal one, but how about a cross fire between 2 6990?
I'll take the latter you keep your integrated old coot + whatever

Last edited by DAX on 24-Jun-2011 at 09:35 AM.

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@DAX

Quote:

DAX wrote: Freescale just announced a 240Gflops PPC CPU

When manufacturer boasts with CPU's IP forwarding capability on launch papers it should be obvious that it's not ment for desktop

Quote:

IBM stated they are working on Power8

That's really way forward. Just checked that you can get used Power6 from ebay for US $3,500.00 and that's just the CPU. Wonder what new Power8 will cost.


Quote:

AMCC is still making new PPC CPUs for the lower end (like their 1.5Ghz dual core and they have more coming).

Once again aimed for embedded.

Quote:

PPC isn't going anywhere and before some start selling the stupid "Dead for desktop" argument, 1)mainstream desktop will also adopt Soc, and B) as long as AmigaOS runs fast on new CPUs, who cares for what market they were made.

Show me even one mainstream desktop solution which is adopting PPC SoC?

Oh please, someone change the record.

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@thread

sounds like a lot of wishful thinking going on here that x86 is dead. tho i would argue the wintel monopoly was only someones figment after amd entered the fray. tho it seems intel gets credit there too. go figure. anyway the chips will be used where it makes sense not because people have turned against the x86 platform.

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@Rose

Quote:

obvious that it's not ment for desktop

Oh, the PA6T Varisys got, wern't made for desktop either, but then you order them and do with them whatever your customers ask you to do with them (even build a desktop computer like the X1000 or, in the future, a Freescale based X2000, and with those cores equipping a new and more powerful Altivec unit, you can cook up a very performing X2000 worry not).

Quote:

That's really way forward. Just checked that you can get used Power6 from ebay for US $3,500.00 and that's just the CPU. Wonder what new Power8 will cost.

That was just to show vitality in PPC development certainly not to suggest a Power8 based Amiga (Hyperion already mentioned they are looking at Freescale for the after X1000).

Quote:

AMCC Once again aimed for embedded.

Quite pointless i'm afraid, Acube will simply keep using PPC Socs from AMCC regardless of "why" AMCC makes them (they'll just get more powerful over time). Some interesting ones are already out (EXAMPLE note:Acube could also overclock these beyond 1.5Ghz as they usually do) and newer ones in the making ensures a steady flow of lower end CPUs for future Sams.

Quote:

Show me even one mainstream desktop solution which is adopting PPC SoC?

Mainstream or not mainstream, the latter will use other Soc, we are going to use PPC Socs from Freescale and AMCC no matter for what market they were initially made for, we already do, we'll just do it with far more powerful CPUs in the future.

Last edited by DAX on 24-Jun-2011 at 10:47 AM.

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AmigaCD 32

@DAX

That APM86290 would be a nice match for PPC OS4/MOS machine.
probably a helluva lot cheaper than the X1000 unicorn.

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@WolfToTheMoon
Consider that the X1000 is on its way to betatesters worldwide featuring a dual 2Ghz Altivec equipped CPU (with 2MB of ultra fast and fully programmable cache), and it's basically done.
A readily avaialble bunch of chips with these features wasn't avaialble even a few months back and even if APM is ready to ship now what would the purpose be about delaying a more powerful computer to produce a cheaper and less powerful one?
Leave that to Acube for the next Sam ;)

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AmigaCD 32

@DAX

Quote:

DAX wrote: @Hammer Quote: Why would one take away the integrated SIMD array? MS Visual Studio 2010 C++ AMP complied programs recommends to have DX11 GpGPU (aka SIMD array). To check the actual core power, then you can still add far more powerful stream arrays on an external GPU. Yes I know you can make a cross fire with the internal one, but how about a cross fire between 2 6990? I'll take the latter you keep your integrated old coot + whatever

How about using the entire compute resource in the machine?

With MS Visual C++ AMP (think of MS C++ STL/MFC next gen), you can use the entire system’s CPU, iGPU and dGPUs compute resource i.e. not limited to AMD's CrossFire configurations.

Timestamp 00:36:30 http://channel9.msdn.com/posts/Daniel-Moth-Blazing-fast-code-using-GPUs-and-more-with-C-AMP


Today, you could manually spool jobs to any available OpenCL compute devices.

I have already done this with my laptop's on-board AMD Radeon HD 6570M (400 SPs) and external (via DIY ViDock) AMD Radeon HD 6950 (1408 SPs).


On rendering side http://www.rage3d.com/articles/ati_catalyst_10/index.php?p=3
AMD is working on Asymmetric Crossfire.

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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

I think the switch to ARM would not be too smart at this point.
PPC is still better for desktop use than any ARM product.

So, PPC is ok for now. But perhaps also the official AOS & developers should consider supporting some emulated PPC solution (on AMD64). incase PPC starts to fade away.

And whatever our future CPU will be, getting (A)SMP and 64bit into AOS should be the next step. Every CPU/SOC will be multicore. (And OpenCL would be nice as well...)

Last edited by KimmoK on 24-Jun-2011 at 06:47 PM.

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- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@Hammer

Quote:

There's one thing that X86 world didn't copy IBM e.g. CELL's SPE ping-pong software development environment hell.

You evidently haven't been read what Intel's been saying recently. They're now talking about localising software and optimising for data movement. Exactly what you had to do for Cell. In fact it's exactly the same thing you do for any large computer system.

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Whyzzat?

@DAX

Quote:

I'll leave Mos to Mos users to talk about, as for AmigaOS its destiny lies in its own line up of Amiga machines, no ports to generic HW. A custom built Amiga machine will cost more than $500 (no matter the CPU)

A lot higher if you use a halfway decent CPU.

Quote:

as long as the numbers are not there,

At >$500 and slow, they never will be.

Quote:

In any case if it's not $500 it will be something like $799 for an eventual X500, add a 22" monitor and you're still lower than an iMac.

Lower in performance, yes.

Quote:

Competing with el cheapo generic chinese stuff it's not an option.

Competing with *anything* is not an option.


Using custom hardware to provide an advantage or (in this case) because your OS uses a particular CPU architecture makes some sense.

Using it just because you want to be different is only going to guarantee you get incredibly low price/performance and ever lower user numbers.

It's already got to the point where the only currently available machine (the Sam460) is beaten by a phone - twice over - and the phone costs less!

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Whyzzat?

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

Companies like IBM, Freescale, AMCC should finance 2 or 3 Notebook/Desktop based on powerPC (amiga powered preferably) to gain market quotes. Maybe starting with a little investment (initially).

Two answers to this:

1) You couldn't do it with a little investment, it'd take a lot of money.

2) 2 of those companies are already making an investment - in something else

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Whyzzat?

@DAX

Need to say, Dax, that IBM never had sense of business. IBM can live with the 3000 patents they can produce every year. Think about OS/2. It's an incredible OS. They abandoned. Think about Visual Age development products, an incredible development package: abandoned. Think about Lotus smart suite: they bought and abandoned. Think about the PC brand and series: sold to Lenovo. They had the possibility to start another market and a parrallel PPC desktop computers: not even tried. Well, i remember more than 12 years ago, my IBM collegue have OS/2 installed on their thinkpad. One day they come to me and say: we have to uninstall OS/2 to install Win NT 4.0.... this is a company directive.
Two months ago i was talking about OS/2 ecomstation to some collegue in a bus. One man said: Is OS/2 still developed? The man was an IBM employee....

They have a gold mine in their hands... and they don't know what to do with....

Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 26-Jun-2011 at 08:23 AM.

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retired

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

AmigaBlitter wrote: They have a gold mine in their hands... and they don't know what to do with....

Too many stodgy suits at the top. The same thing that killed C=.

@minator

Quote:

minator wrote: @Hammer Quote: There's one thing that X86 world didn't copy IBM e.g. CELL's SPE ping-pong software development environment hell. You evidently haven't been read what Intel's been saying recently. They're now talking about localising software and optimising for data movement. Exactly what you had to do for Cell. In fact it's exactly the same thing you do for any large computer system.

You evidently missed MS C++ AMP (for current DX11 GpGPUs) and AMD "Graphics Core Next"/Southern Islands.


Anyway, X86 world will take the hybrid approach e.g. AMD "Graphics Core Next" has unfied/global L2 cache with coherency, AMD64 IOMMU, basic out-of-order processing.

----

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Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@AmigaBlitter

I was just kidding around with ya... I'm typing this on a PowerPC (powered) Mac. But what I will say is those powers that be who develop PowerPC (or Power technology) only seem to care about the embedded computing market and so it's hard to defend PowerPC (or Power) these days. But I am excited about the X1000 and hopefully its successors. I wish A-EON Technology the best and hope they succeed.

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yeah pity the power line was discontinued but hey even X86 chips have alot of RISC
engineered into them to point that they are basically RISC in their own way.

Still I am glad we are not going down that road.

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@Rose

Quote:

Show me even one mainstream desktop solution which is adopting PPC SoC?

Um, how about Intel and AMD.

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Whyzzat?