@Chuckt

But the Natami doesn't need a SID chip?!?

@mbrantley

Quote:

I hope you don't mind, but I think I'd like to go on wasting my time. I require for my use and enjoyment a faster, more capable AmigaOS and computer than Commodore left off with in 1994. Thankfully, I have my X1000 and a developing OS and selection of applications, both new and old, to run on it. Am thankful some people and companies have wasted time and money so I can keep on keeping on with this Amiga thing.

A big +1 for that!!

All 68k Amiga is useless for me because those machine are not productive today. I need an Amiga that is capable of chewing threw the HTML5 specs, MP4&H264 codecs, takes less than 10 minutes to display a modern digital camera image etc.

68k Amiga is 100% nostalgia and very little productivity. I need modern capabilities and I want it in an Amiga, not winsuck or something else.

So thank you Hyperion, A-EON, and all for *spending* (not wasting) the time and effort into keeping Amiga a productive machine, not only a nostalgic machine.

_________________
- Don't get fooled by my avatar, I'm not like that (anymore, mostly... maybe only sometimes)
> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

@Deniil715

Quote:

All 68k Amiga is useless for me because those machine are not productive today. I need an Amiga that is capable of chewing threw the HTML5 specs, MP4&H264 codecs, takes less than 10 minutes to display a modern digital camera image etc.

you probably do that anyway with a mobile phone or something, but since this is not a "computer" it doesnt conflict with what you call an "amiga".

Quote:

68k Amiga is 100% nostalgia and very little productivity. I need modern capabilities and I want it in an Amiga, not winsuck or something else.

first you put down what actually IS an amiga. then you insist on using something that is best case beta stage operating system supporting half a way some self made hardware and all that without any pool of applications that would be worth to name, and while that you insist to call it an "amiga", even though it is it only as much you want it. and in the end you tell us that windows, linux, macos and other modern operating systems "suck" in comparison?

well thats pretty bold description of what you hold for "productivity machine", considering there is no graphic, office or sound software for it any close to todays standards, except perhaps hd-rec (depends on what one needs) which is genuine amiga software and odyssey which is a port from morphos.

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @andres The only one who is (perhaps) able to invest some money (and already does) is Trevor D. but he is already spending lots of money in new PPC hardware. In my view too it would have made more sense to invest in a ISA shift but it is his money. So I doubt he will put all the money in toilet now to finance a ISA shift. And of course it is risky. Trevor D. always tries to minimize risks and recollect all of his money. Financing ISA shift would be highly risky.

There is ZERO chance that Trevor D. will ever "recollect all of his money", as you put it, that he has spent on A-Eon and the new PPC hardware he has created, and continues to create. I don't think many people in this community realize just how much money he has already spent on R&D, before any production was started. The same is happening again with the X5000, maybe more, maybe less, but still a huge amount of money to make these things happen. To recoup all of his money for the X1000 and X5000, Trevor would have to charge probably twice as much for them.

_________________
Amiga! The computer that inspired so many, to accomplish so much, but has ended up in the hands of . . . . . . . . . .

@amigadave

do you know all the details of the whole venture? i dont. there is so much talking and speculating about what someone has paid and may or may not recover. this is all the same to me. its his business, not mine. whatever anyone does to satisfy himself, be it good investments, charity.. i treat it as a black box.

all i can and would comment on is the result as it is being proposed to me.

@Signal

Quote:

Signal wrote: @amigadave (After waddling through all the AROS advertising.) Sounds to me like you are looking for a new Amiga. That is, a currently produced replacement for classic hardware. Something that can be used for fun and the more mundane tasks. Something that may not do everything but can be made to do enough to keep a community going and growing. Something that will serve as an anchor that people will use as a base for differing interests within a larger community. In other words, stable hardware. No more moving targets. Am I right? (Now we will break for more adverts and techno-babble.)

Not exactly what I was thinking. My thoughts are more in line with those of some hard line Classic users who think that almost all efforts for the past 20 years or so to create a new Amiga, have all been an effort in futility (though perhaps a noble effort by a few dozen programmers unwilling to let the Amiga die). I was going to write that maybe it would have been better if MorphOS and AmigaOS4.x had never been created, but I take it back, because it is not true. MorphOS, AmigaOS4.x and AROS have kept many users still interested in the Amiga way of computing, just as much as the Classic Amiga users who have never left using their 68k Amiga systems, or the UAE and FPGA users. All of us have taken part in keeping the Amiga alive, just in different ways. If one or more of those choices were not to exist, it does not automatically mean that the users would choose any of the remaining Amiga inspired choices.

So, in retrospect, I will recant my comment about those efforts being a waste of time and effort. I just wish they had produced better results and not fallen so far behind mainstream computing, to the point that some of them are completely irrelevant to most users.

I am not looking for a new Amiga any longer, as that experience is the past and gone and all attempts to create a new Amiga have resulted in something that does not satisfy me any longer. I am going back to using Classic Amiga hardware and/or emulation, be it software emulation on modern PC's, or hardware emulation on FPGA devices. Running AmigaOS3.x at faster speeds, or on more powerful hardware that allows some interesting new features or software possible is where I am headed.

Last edited by amigadave on 03-Jun-2015 at 09:16 AM.

_________________
Amiga! The computer that inspired so many, to accomplish so much, but has ended up in the hands of . . . . . . . . . .

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote: @amigadave do you know all the details of the whole venture? i dont. there is so much talking and speculating about what someone has paid and may or may not recover. this is all the same to me. its his business, not mine. whatever anyone does to satisfy himself, be it good investments, charity.. i treat it as a black box. all i can and would comment on is the result as it is being proposed to me.

Of course I don't know all of the details, only Trevor and his accountants know that, but when some members mention that all Trevor wants is to make his investment money back, it angers me. Also, many public statements have been made about thousands upon thousands of dollars being spent, so yes, some of the accounting is known and it is huge. Look through all of A-Eon's press releases and you will find some of this information. Read every forum message or AmiWest show announcement that Trevor has ever made, and you will find out much more information on how much money he has spent and continues to spend on this endeavor.

Ask people who know how much custom computer design and production costs, if you doubt what I say and then try to figure out a way to recoup all of those expenses plus production costs from a few hundred sales.

So, yes, I get angry when I see anyone inferring that Trevor is greedy, or that he is trying to control the Amiga community so he can make big profits. If he lives to be 150 years old, I don't think he could ever recoup all of the money he has invested in the Amiga and this community. He admits that he does it for himself, because he wanted a faster, more modern Amiga(One) computer to play with.

I don't pretend to know half of what he is doing, but I pay attention to what he says, and what is written, so my opinion on how much is being spent is not going to be off by 50% to 70%, and my claims that he will most likely NEVER recoup all of his money, are a very good bet. He would have to sell thousands of systems in the future for that to happen, and we just don't have the number of users anymore. Not users willing to spend the amount of money that such systems cost, and are going to continue to cost in the future. I wish it were different, as I really like Trevor and wish him all the best.

_________________
Amiga! The computer that inspired so many, to accomplish so much, but has ended up in the hands of . . . . . . . . . .

@amigadave

one reason why X1000 was/is so expensive that R&D is covered by a small number of sales. It seems he has sold more than expected so I think he got back his expenses there. I doubt that this will be the case for X5000 but I do not know the calculation

@Deniil715

I run circles around most PPC options and that in emulation

68k is more than the old amigas to me :)

first generation of FPGA accellerators will be slower than PPC, next generation might become a problem for slower Acube offerings.

And no not forget that most 68k libs and software are optimized and written in asm so the difference is smaller than it seems. And regarding HTML5, there is no reason why it should not work on 68k platforms when enough resources (Ram, processing power) are available

@amigadave

I would say it this way... it would be better to have just one platform and not 3 (or 4) like we have now

I will explain it on Aros with its different branches

On Aros you have the same API on whatever platform you run it. So you have MESA/Gallium even on 68k, you have the same AHI/CybergraphX implementation on all platforms and so on. That means (in best case) that you only recompile your software for another platform without needing to change your source.

I use f.e. some programs like Zuneview on Aros 68k that were written on X86.

To compare this to the situation we have on the amiga platform. I have done some API comparations comparing AROS, 3.X and 4.X. The result is they are similar but not identical. I do not talk about which one is better or worse because it is not important here. 4.X f.e. has extensions of the original API (3.X) that are exclusiv, the same for AROS. Some things are common, others only implemented on certain platforms. So it is easy to write software that f.e. runs on 3.X and 4.X but not on Aros (68k), the same the other way round. If you want to support more than one platform you need lots of experience partly due to the lack of modern class libraries.

Then all camps are using different standards for RTG, application GUIs, USB, PCI and so on. I think the only really identical component is AHI.

Unfortunately all platforms are due to the attitudes the core devs / involved parties / persons heading more and more away from each other. The 3rd party devs solve the problems by only supporting one platform.

A unified open base (API) would be of big benefit but it will not happen (you saw propably the reactions in the forum discussions).

I was and am mostly interested in 68k and for me personal most promising there is Aros 68k because it combines the past with a platform that is in development and gets new software. I can finally live with the split because I do not care about the other platforms anymore. AmigaOS 4.X and MorphOS are the same to me as Linux or Windows just that the API is similar to the 3.X API.

Most intertesting to me is Aros 68k and future FPGA based hardware extensions like Apollo.

Regarding software 68k is unbeatable. What exclusive software for 4.X or MorphOS is there that justifies to use it? MorphOS is "the best everywhere" how the fans claim but if you look at new software it looks pretty dim. AmigaOS is still getting most new software/updates, AROS now second but if you compare it with the 68k codebase it is only a shadow. That is very visible when looking at Aminet. I have (as example) included more than 10 compilers for 68k in Aros Vision, no of the so called NG platforms can compete here anyhow. So for me modernizing 68k in a compatible way makes much more sense to me than porting to X64 or having PPC and mostly run 68k software. But that is only my personal view, other can have different views of course .

When you want to win users that are not former amigans and have no emotional ties supporting platforms like Raspberry makes sense but then still you need special software/services that makes it wortwhile to install and use the platform. We will see what future brings.

Somewhere (this thread?) I have already explained why I think "NG" unavoidable had to fail because being too late. But when all would have supported one platform chances would have been better at least. But this is history now.

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@amigadave

Quote:

Ask people who know how much custom computer design and production costs, if you doubt what I say and then try to figure out a way to recoup all of those expenses plus production costs from a few hundred sales.

for what i know usually all os4 hardware ever has been is imply some re-branded reference or embedded design, which should keep development costs in reasonable frame. there was a reason, why it wasnt possible the other way.

now, aeon may actually have founded development of an unique design, but as we dont know the details it may be that there was some reference design already laying in some drawer, which happily waited be adopted and brought to some use. would even be reasonable. or perhaps there is actually some embedded application for boards like nemo and such. as i said, this is not my concern.

however, there is always so much talk about investments and money. who pays what and how much, about spending thousands just for the sake of supporting the case. what "amiga" could be if millions were invested, or if it run on this or that, or.. so many conditionals. pretty every rubbish could become something if pumped with enough funds. given that it happens here without much result is pretty telling, right? and also, whose ever value of whatever he considers "amiga" to be, depends on money investments in the range of millions, rather than his particular joy to use and contribute to what amiga actually is, is that decent thinking, or are we talking complex.

Last edited by wawa on 03-Jun-2015 at 10:09 AM.

@OlafS25

68k is not unbeatable because 68k software run on MOS and OS4. Where 68k has advantage is WinUAE.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@itix

But for what running 68k on PPC? The advantage of using PPC would be when using native PPC versions. And additionally many libraries are hardcoded asm partly direct hitting the hardware for speed reasons. That do not work on PPC except when using UAE (that has no JIT there).

@OlafS25

Quote:

But for what running 68k on PPC? The advantage of using PPC would be when using native PPC versions.

Wrong. The advantage is that OS is updated and developed. Due to historical reasons it is using PPC but it is just CPU arch. Native builds only have advantage in CPU intensive tasks and such tasks are quite rare. For example MP3 decoding is heavy task for 000-040 processors but for PPC 68k native MP3 decoding is not an issue.

And of course the gfx and sound subsystem, datatypes, system libraries etc are native and optimized. This would not be case if MorphOS was 68k OS running in WinUAE.

Quote:

And additionally many libraries are hardcoded asm partly direct hitting the hardware for speed reasons. That do not work on PPC except when using UAE (that has no JIT there).

Then they are not always working on real Amiga either (*). My A1200 only had VGA monitor so I dumped all OCS/AGA only software. Besides new software using AGA directly are limited to relatively low resolutions. Not really appealing when I have full HD monitors.

Asm routines of course are not problem per se.

* (I admit Amiga users using real hardware are probably very rare. In 2015.)

Last edited by itix on 03-Jun-2015 at 01:29 PM.
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_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@itix

Most what you write is only true if you compare it to the old hardware and not compare it to UAE. That it is better having something that is in development compared to a static platform is true but then I prefer Aros 68k there because it runs on both old hardware, very propably on FPGA and on UAE. The only area where PPC has a advantage when supporting 3D accelleration on new graphic cards.

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Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-Jun-2015 at 01:35 PM.

@itix

Quote:

I admit Amiga users using real hardware are probably very rare. In 2015

Ah...I'm not rare. I am my own majority...

_________________
X1000|II/G4|440ep|2000/060|2000/040|1000

@itix

Quote:

* (I admit Amiga users using real hardware are probably very rare. In 2015.)

thats your opinion. from my angle and knowing myself the thrill i think the opposite is the case. otherwise non would care about the hardware save for few collectors, and especially none would be interested in any accelerators, let alone fpga development. that aside a casual gamers dusting off their old wedge for a weekend beer session will probably outweight all.

in my case i use winuae a lot for testing but i dont particularly see it as a target by itself, while i dont question the opposite choice. i like the actual machines their look and feel and i dont think im alone here.

when you see the view counts on those 2 videos, you can think that they're is at least an interest, a small future maybe...
NG : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1RsvEm7UrU
Amiga : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUoJBerFDsA

Kamelito

@kamelit0

Quote:

kamelit0 wrote: Amiga : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUoJBerFDsA

Yes this is an important factor if it should be classified as Amiga, it must have great market share and support from many serious software companies. I wonder how big the Amiga really was? AmigaDOS4/MOS/AROS NG is like a small fart in comparison, is there any serious support in that camp at all?

_________________
Using: One Commodore C64 - One Commodore Amiga 500 - One Commodore Amiga 1200 with BVision and Blizzard 68060 with PPC coprocessor running Amiga DOS - One Hellbillylitre Amigatwox86x64x6000x running Windows7

@wawa

Quote:

thats your opinion. from my angle and knowing myself the thrill i think the opposite is the case.

Or is this your opinion?

I dont know. It is very hard to get proper statistics but to me it looks like everyone is on WinUAE now.

Quote:

in my case i use winuae a lot for testing but i dont particularly see it as a target by itself, while i dont question the opposite choice. i like the actual machines their look and feel and i dont think im alone here.

And I have Amiga 500 because I really like it. But using old Amigas is different hobby than using fresh Amiga o.s. on modernish hardware. I have no interest to buy expensive accelerators or expansion cards but I have interest to run Amiga software in fresh environment. To latter MorphOS fills my need. Long time ago I had A1200 with ultra expensive accelerator and gfx board and in the end it was not what I wanted.

Apples and oranges.

Some users want to max their old Amigas, some users dont. I am more that kind of guy who want to get a computer. install an OS and start using it. Like what Amiga was 25 years ago.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook