Kronos Quote:

Eric did (or maybe still does, don't know don't really care) go with Pegasos_2 and MorphOS so all your drivel bout Trevor&Co is beside the point.

PPC AmigaNOne is only for the elite few and Eric must not have been elite enough! The A-EonKit/Hyperion shenanigans are best avoided and avoided by smart Amiga users! The A-EonKit/Hyperion usurpers of the Amiga IP have been exposed and are seen as illegitimate and corrupt leaving no way forward for their over priced niche products for the classes no matter how much and how long they sabotage other 68k Amiga development!

Kronos Quote:

As "for 68k is the future" only if you define that future being 100% bout looking back. No I don't think anything PPC/ARM/x86 can MakeAmigaGreatAgain but that doesn't make 68k any less invalid in that regard. Pure retro 68k Amiga is still going strong but only with people who admit to themselves that it is and never will nothing more than pure retro.

It is possible for 68k Amiga hardware to support 68k Amiga compatibility and a better future than PPC AmigaNOne. Natami/Vamp/AC hardware and 68060@100MHz accelerator boards for classic Amiga hardware including the CD32 console have demonstrated that real 68k Amiga hardware can do both. I believe SMP is possible for 68k Amiga software with a little hardware help that would not affect compatibility with other 68k OSs. The problem is the continued sabotage of 68k Amiga development by A-EonKit/Hyperion even as they survive by making money off the "retro" 68k Amiga market.

#6 Quote:

Some older material here for what it's worth: Amicue

Eric has been friendly toward many Amiga related ventures. He has supported AROS, Amiga magazines, Amiga user groups, Amiga shows, etc. His art is all over the internet and he is not shy about Amiga symbolism and his 68k Amiga roots or the Amiga disaster that the current Amiga situation has become.

Last edited by matthey on 13-Mar-2025 at 07:06 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 13-Mar-2025 at 07:04 PM.

@Kronos

Quote:

As "for 68k is the future" only if you define that future being 100% bout looking back. No I don't think anything PPC/ARM/x86 can MakeAmigaGreatAgain but that doesn't make 68k any less invalid in that regard. Pure retro 68k Amiga is still going strong but only with people who admit to themselves that it is and never will nothing more than pure retro

Hang on there squire. Name one single architectural leap that MorphOS (or OS4) has made over 68K that was *only possible* because they run on PPC....

*crickets*

In the *decades* since PPC - including 64-bit and multiprocessor hardware, all we have to show for any of it are incremental improvements. We don't have 64-bit addressing, we don't have SMP, proper process isolation or any improvements to the system *at all* that depends on anything more than the increased instruction throughput. And yet somehow it's only the 68K users that are stuck in the retro mindset?

It's utterly impossible to read your post without laughing.

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@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: Hang on there squire. Name one single architectural leap that MorphOS (or OS4) has made over 68K that was *only possible* because they run on PPC....

And here I was thinking you were a native in English with a basic grip on logic....

But to make it simple:

I did state that PPC/ARM/x86 can't revive the Amiga.
But it should also be clear that the same reasons apply for anything 68k. Real, fake or emulated.

@matthey
Real 68k (100MHz 060) are at levels that would have been o.k. in 1997.
Fake 68k (anything FPGA) are somewhere around 1999.
Emulated 68k is in 2001 on ARM and maybe 2005 on x86.
(MorphOS/OS4 are on 2000-2005 levels depending on the HW used)

Anything less ancient would require 64bit and proper SMP both would require throwing out the whole existing stack of SW (or at least hiding it in a sandbox).
At which point going for pie-in-the-sky made up super 68k wouldn't make any sense.

Or in short we are doomed anyways you may just as well enjoy the ride.

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@Kronos

No, the simple point is you tried to imply the 68K as somehow being more obsolete than PPC, but the simple fact is they are all obsolete and have no future at all in their current incarnations.

The only way for the Amiga to have a future is to become something completely different than the platform we all loved in the first place.

In many ways a version of that future already exists with AxRT: SMP, 64 bit etc. Yet I don't see that much love for it, despite delivering on every major promise (except binary compatibility) that the NG made decades ago.

We like what we like, so just embrace it, but please: don't ever try to make the case - be that explicitly or by implication - that PPC/NG is in any more modern or any less obsolete and irrelevant than 68K AmigaOS is. It's not, and I won't ever hesitate to make that correction.

Some day, we might see MorphOS x64 native or maybe even ARM or just PPC 64-bit. Then, and only then, has it advanced towards modernity.

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@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @Kronos No, the simple point is you tried to imply the 68K as somehow being more obsolete than PPC

Yeah, again reading skills.....

Real 68k (aka pure retro) tops out at 100MHz, 1/4 of the lowest piece of "NG HW" the EFIKA. So yes that is "more obsolete".

Once you go emulated/fake and believe it to have any "future" you are just as delusional as those making such claims for PPC.


So maybe instead of making a fool of yourself by putting words into my mouth you could just do what you claim to advocate (embracing what you like).

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@Kronos

No. Faster is not "less obsolete", it's just faster. If just being faster was enough then I'm afraid NG doesn't fare very well compared to UAE on any half modern PC, does it?

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@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: I'm afraid NG doesn't fare very well compared to UAE on any half modern PC, does it?

Mmmmmm let me check were I placed 68k-EMU-on-x86 in my list above....

Is that placement 100% correct? Dunno, depends on the exact HW and SW used I'd guess. But top of the line PPC would be a 2.7GHz G5 running native code, I do wonder how fast an Intel or AMD (on a single core I'd guess ) would need to run to get the emulated 68k to that speed.

And yes something being 4x slower than the slowest option of something else does make it more obsolete.

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@Kronos

I see you are stuck in your hubristic fallacy that speed alone makes something less obsolete.

I suppose we live in an unreality age where people can believe whatever subjective crap they want about anything that has a more objective means of measurement, so you're welcome to the view.

Objectively, to be less obsolete, a machine should be able to do something that a rival machine can not do, no matter how much faster it can be made to run. Objectively, a 64-bit platform is less obsolete than a 32-bit one. Yet you might still have examples of a 32-bit system that's faster than a 64-bit one. It doesn't make it less obsolete, just potentially faster at tasks that both machines can handle. What makes the 32-bit system more obsolete is that it can only handle a subset of tasks that the 64-bit machine can, simply because those additional tasks are bound by the amount of available address space.

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@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote: No I don't think anything PPC/ARM/x86 can MakeAmigaGreatAgain

I agree, the only thing that can make a new Amiga thing greater than or as great as the original Amiga thing (however which way you measure Amiga greatness), is with RISC V.

Here are the steps to new Amiga greatness:
1. Get all previous 68k software running on globally affordable hardware. Without new 68k CPUs fitting this requirement, we resort to 68k JIT on ARM32.
2. Gradually rewrite as much of the OS (AROS) to be ARM native. Ship of Theseus.
3. Re-architect AROS to be a multi-core 64-bit ARM64 little-endian first class citizen. Sandbox the legacy.
4. Port ARM native AROS running ARM apps and sandboxed legacy 68k to RISC V.
V. Design our own RISC V cores to include a high performance 68040+ core.

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true

@agami

Why go via ARM if the goal is RISC-V?

Hans

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@Hans

Why not? Ensuring compatibility with multiple architectures is beneficial in several ways.

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@agami

Quote:

1. Get all previous 68k software running on globally affordable hardware. Without new 68k CPUs fitting this requirement, we resort to 68k JIT on ARM32.

What do you mean with "68k JIT on ARM32"? Do you mean 68k JIT emulation on AROS/ARM32?

Quote:

3. Re-architect AROS to be a multi-core 64-bit ARM64 little-endian first class citizen. Sandbox the legacy.

Aside from the "multi-core" part, I would not be surprised if this is more straight forward than your second point.

Quote:

4. Port ARM native AROS running ARM apps and sandboxed legacy 68k to RISC V.

This sentence doesn't make much sense - what do you mean "port ARM native AROS.. to RISC V"? I suspect what you mean is just "port AROS to RISC V". Porting is not a process of "converting" native binaries of one architectures to another, it's a process of adding necessary support for the new architecture and tool chain in the source code and building process. And what do you mean with "port sandboxed 68k to RISC V"? Port the concept of sandboxing 68k apps inside an emulator, or port legacy 68k native software to RISC V? Sandboxing legacy 68k in an emulator already exists, that's exactly what all incarnations of UAE do.

Quote:

V. Design our own RISC V cores to include a high performance 68040+ core.

So after all the effort of porting to first ARM32, ARM64 and then RISC V, you're going back to 32bit 68k native? Or is this high performance 68040+ supposed to be somehow "sandboxed" inside RISC V native AROS? Like... hardware virtualisation, only for a different architecture? Accessing what RAM? Why not just use software JIT 68k emulation?

Last edited by kolla on 14-Mar-2025 at 11:12 AM.
Last edited by kolla on 14-Mar-2025 at 11:10 AM.

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LOL impressive guys, a thread about "where Eric Schwartz is?" somehow get turned into yet another architect battle thread! Im very impress!

He on twitter / X

https://x.com/ProductionsEric

Seem to gone even more squirrel comic NWFW content!

And I think this is his Youtube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/@feralstorm/videos

Loved the Amiga animated song vids he's done

Still Alive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to6K29PwKYo

Only Amiga
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNR5vxAR22A

Amiga Song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Kx02u746ik

hope he does one for the 40th!

Last edited by amigang on 14-Mar-2025 at 12:21 PM.

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@Karlos

A system that can display 50% of the Web is less obsolete than one with 5%.

A system that will load those pages in 10s is less obsolete than one loading it in 1min.


If speed wasn't a factor, noone would have ever bothered with FPGA or added JITs to the SW EMUs.

64bit AROS is just as obsolete as 32bit AROS as there is just no SW making practical use of that extended address space.

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@Kronos

The browser is not part of the platform, it's a contribution. Besides which, I have no doubt that a browser as capable as Wayfarer would run just as well on a 68K machine that runs fast enough. It's not speed which is the determining factor in whether or not it's possible. Speed is the factor that determines whether or not it's useable / practical.

Thanks to UAE and Emu68, the necessary speed is available to the corpus of 68K users that are not opposed to emulation.

I've never said speed was not a factor in what makes something practical to do, far from it. The case I am making is about what is possible to do and how that makes each Amigoid platform equally obsolete as it stands. We're all stuck in 32-bit single core land. The *only* advantage PPC gave us in the end was speed. Even with multicore 64 bit machines available, NG is still incapable of leveraging the benefit because it's simply no more sophisticated than 3.x in every key way that matters.

That inherent speed advantage of PPC grows more and more irrelevant as the performance of commodity hardware that 68K emulation runs on keeps growing. If it continues, emulated 68K will outpace the best of those ageing PPC machines and they will have no advantage.

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@Kronos

I noticed you didn't mention AxRT.

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Eric is an awesome guy. Always great to work with.

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@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: The browser is not part of the platform, it's a contribution.

A platform without SW is the pinnacle of "obsolete" no matter how modern or not it is.

As for "uber" 68k being able to run it, *shrug* that has been an option ever since Amithlon so even before MorphOS (or OS4) became available.
Yet IBrowse still seems to be the "best" option for 68k AOS.

Quote:

I noticed you didn't mention AxRT.

Why should I? (see above)

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@Kronos

Has it crossed your mind that Uber 68K users may not be as bothered to have a modern browser - particularly if they are running on an emulation that already has one on the host. You know, a not obsolete one, one that supports modern standards and technology and is kept up to date by a large development team.

Don't get me wrong, I do think a browser more akin to Wayfarer would be a value add, but it's not going to up to the same standard as any major browser that runs on an up to date 64-bit SMP OS.

But this is where AxRT comes in... The price you pay for having all the modernity you want is that you can't directly run old binaries though I suspect at some point more deeply integrated emulation will make that problem redundant, even if it's just UAE in the background running a 3.x image.

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