Yep, I do agree with Opi and so on - AmigaOS and similar don't have the advantages over other OSs that they had 20 years ago. And I'm not delusional; I use Windows more than any other OS for everyday stuff because (most of the time) it just works. But I do still find myself from time to time cursing things like the filename extension dependency, active window in front and not being able to move an application's window when it has a dialogue box open. There are times I'd love to have the Amiga system of volumes, assigns etc. too, and to be able to use ARexx on other platforms. VBScript is powerful but most applications don't support it. Apple's automator is excellent but I'd prefer to be writing the scripts myself, and under Linux there are probably 10 different ways of doing it but no real standard like ARexx that I've seen.

Memory footprint, efficiency and all that don't really have much bearing any more for normal desktop use - for the past couple of years I've had enough CPU power, RAM and hard drive space for all my operating systems to work happily (though I've never put Vista on any of my machines...)

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@Daedalus

Taken somewhat out of its context:
Quote:

hate having to arrange windows in Windows so that I can see both at the same time,

What I have a strong dislike for in Windows, is the windows's big and ugly dragbar, the sometimes hard to discern 'colse' gadget (risking the closureof the wrong window) due to the rather extreme opacity of inactive windows. The always annoyingly present equally big and ugli menu bar in any window, resulting in the infamous 'letterbox' appearance. This is more so when dealing with browsers and you have added them 'toolbars': layer after layer after layer of toolbars, with hardly any added functionallity, yet they are hopelessly in the way all the time, consuming your precious screen real estate. Oh, and the absence of a global menu. How often have I been baffled by its absence on Windows, be it XP, Vista or 7.
The windows littered with all kinds of 'info' which (I think) there is hardly any need for. The real info one is looking for seems to be unimportant. Probably one can 'customise' this behaviour, but it is annoying nonetheless.
Filerequesters (an Amiga word, I know) are ressembling a hodgepodge with all kinds of different buttons all over the place, with 'shortcuts' I am, after all these years, still wondering about their usefullness: what I would like to see there isn't present and what IS present I have no use for.... On every system they contain different entries and it would not surprise me if it were different for every application on one and the same machine.
Filerequesters on Amiga, I find much, much more informative, allthough a bit outdated in appearance, with clearly layed out buttons and fields and presentation. A revelation! Provided, the programmer of the application has a proper knowledge about filerequesters, which is not always the case...

On a different note, it has been mentioned already, is the volumenaming. For a modern OS as WIndows is constantly addressed as, the overly silly driveletter system is hopelessly outdated and limited to 24 letters = volumes. Letter A and B are floppydrives. Ask any youngster what a floppydrive is and you'll meet a blank stare. The solution is typical for Microsoft: some ungainly ugli piece of software, to be installed seperately, which allows you to address more then 26 volumes. Wow!
Tip for Windows users: ALLWAYS give your removable media (USB-sticks, memory cards, etc., etc.) a name! You have a hefty 8 characters for naming in Windows, but quite a bit more when using any other OS and WIndows will happily live with it. Cardreaders are invariably presented (by their dive letter) in 'This stupid Computer', whether they contain a volume or not. When the volume does have a name, it will be shown next to the drive letter. Oh, my goats! Even in 2011 we're celebrating the '70s of the past century.
The use of the equally outdated Masturbootrecord leaves you sniggering unles you are forced to work with it: no possibillities for more then one bootvolume a la Amiga (and I am a known stickler for multiboot). Sure you can add some weird piece of software and then you have the possibillities of multiboot, but it is not out of the box!
Where would you need multiboot for? Well, Windows is oh, so compatible, up to the point that it is nearly compatible with previous iterations. Some software refuses to run under Windows 7, so you have to keep XP nearby. So much for compatabillity.

This was my 11 o'clock rant: coffee got cold, newspaper was delivered wet, had a whisky to many last night and the couple next door were acting like newly weds in a squeaking bed.

OldFart

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@OldFart

Quote:

For a modern OS as WIndows is constantly addressed as, the overly silly driveletter system is hopelessly outdated and limited to 24 letters = volumes. Letter A and B are floppydrives.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, how long you could mount NTFS partition in disk structure? Since forever. You don't know that so Amiga is better. Rest of your rant is about "petty things no human complains about". I have yet to hear someone guy that he can't gasp C:/D:/E: concept, even if it's outdeated.

File requester: while I agree ReqTools is very nice and looks better than standard file picker on Windows I would not want to use it. I enjoying being able to use SSH, RSYNC, FTP, SVN as path without running additional program.

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@opi

Well, the drive letters thing is still how most people see the world - so much so that on my mobile phone the built-in flash memory is labelled C: and the memory card D:, yet it's Symbian based. Mounting the drives without drive letters is possible, in which case it looks more like a unix system, but how many average users do that? Yep, it would be nice to have that sort of integration in AmigaOS which would show up automatically in the file requesters, it's not really ReqTools' fault though, more of a core limitation in AmigaDOS.

@OldFart
I'm also finding more and more Windows applications without a standard menubar. They tend to be hidden behind a single button in some cases, and as it's not in a standard position, it's a matter of trial and error to even find the File menu. Maybe it's being "progressive" or something, but I can't for the life of me figure out why that's done. It's not like there isn't enough screen real-estate these days, perhaps they should've done it that way back in the days of 640x480 and Windows 3.1...

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@opi

You and I have gone round and round before on several subjects. I just can't
believe that anybody who thinks users should be totally insulated from the
hardware that IS theirs, by APIs' and abstractions, would say;
Quote:

My problem with Amiga users is their unhealthy ignorance about computer world Old not because of their age, old because they lost all curiosity that led them to explore AmigaOS in the first place.

@MacSociety

Yes, we are a bunch of nut-jobs that probably should be under professional observation,
but when our self appointed keepers even blink, we run off and do things with our
Amiga's that we want to do. And, if we need assistance with our escape or projects, , ,
there are other self committed inmates that are only to happy to join in.

So the question to you is;
What would you like to do, or do better, or do differently?

Keep in mind, it has been a very difficult 15 years.

Oh! If you like 50s, 60s, 20s, or new century music,, enjoy!

@opi
You don't realize that you are also guilty of the same mistakes you are calling out.
You're "calling out" some stuff based on YOUR personal taste (Draggable screens are "unintuitive"? you cannot enter everyone mind and 2nd) you cannot thunder down your thoughts as undisputable truths when is just your opinion).

Also I don not agree on "there is no Amiga magic", as my PentiumIII laptop runs its OS ultra slow while on similar specs, Aos is way faster.
It must be doing something good/better (less bloated?)
Of course if it's "pure calculations" (such as 3D rendering) than all processors will behave according to their specs, but that is purely a thing for CPU manufacturers to boast, not for OS makers, and here we are talking OSs.

Amiga has a few things to like as Deadalus (and others) pointed out.

Last edited by DAX on 02-Feb-2011 at 12:10 PM.

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@MacSociety

I'm a little bit biased as I am far more familiar with the Amiga than the other platforms I'm quite familiar with too, so keeping this in mind:

More than anything else, what it does better IMHO is keep ME in control.
It lets me do things the way I prefer, doesn't get in the way of my workflow, doesn't hide anything from me, nor pester me with (in)security non-sense and doesn't stab me in the back with every update.

It allows me to know where and what everything is, what it's doing, its design makes a lot of sense, and it keeps everything simple and lets me change nearly everything if I don't like the way it is.

I also grew fond of various applications which contribute to making the Amiga better (for me) as I'd have to give up them up to switch to another OS.

If the Amiga ever was to bite the dust for good, the only alternative I could possibly consider would be Linux or similar but I'd probably lose most of my interest in hacking away and end up mostly using the computer to surf the web and play music.

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@DAX

Quote:

Draggable screens are "unintuitive"?

Do an experiment: get 30 people, sit them in front of Amiga, see how many will drag screen. Just because you're used to it does not mean that people would get it. I love Vim because I can use Vim, I don't expect it to be intuitive. You need to go against what you're used to in text editors (two modes). Since other OSes don't have similar concept, so you can't have usage patter and there's no good inticator that screen bar is dragable.

If you want to see reaction to intuitive UI give those 30 people iPad.

Quote:

my PentiumIII laptop runs its OS ultra slow

You're using basic, featureless OS, single core, non-multiuser. It's faster than 12 years old computer.

By "No Amiga Magic" I mean not how fast ReAction windows can be drawn on your screen. I mean that most ported software will work as expected, there will be no magical acceleration due nature of OS.

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@Mechanic

I don't really know what you're trying to say in your first paragraph.

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@AlexC
There ya go. +1

@MacSociety

It's MY computer. Not what somebody else decides what my computer should be, and I
don't have to rebuild the kernel just to add or stop some kernel module from loading.

For example, since I do not use any older software, at the present, I do not have the
Petunia module loading.

I also modified the Startup-Sequence so it displays what happening as the network is
brought online. And it was easy to do.

So I guess it is that my Amiga does not have to be as other Amigas, is what I like, and
it does better.

@opi

Quote:

File requester: while I agree ReqTools is very nice and looks better than standard file picker on Windows I would not want to use it. I enjoying being able to use SSH, RSYNC, FTP, SVN as path without running additional program.

Er, what do you mean here exactly? I fail to grasp it, I'm sorry.

OldFart

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Get wasted all the time
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@opi
Nice suggestion, although I don't have the time to gather a crowd, let me tell you about my friend Alex. He just bought a Mac out of pure hype (from his iPhone circle) and after 15 years of Windows he was so paralyzed he had to grab a book at a local Bookstore.

When you start using a new OS (one you never used before) having a thing or two explained to you on printed paper (screen drag advice is provided in OS4's quick start guide at page 32) is something considered "normal".

Last edited by DAX on 02-Feb-2011 at 12:53 PM.
Last edited by DAX on 02-Feb-2011 at 12:52 PM.

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@opi
opi wrote:
@Mechanic
Quote:

I don't really know what you're trying to say in your first paragraph.

( Perhaps what you wrote is not how I read it. )

For example the PEEK & POKE discussion.

My view is that it's my equipment and I'll do as I want with it. Your view seemed to
be that users should not be allowed to mess around in the hardware or OS because
they may break something.

Recall?

And then you said
Quote:

Old not because of their age, old because they lost all curiosity that led them to explore AmigaOS in the first place.

I guess I'm just as usual.

@OldFart

Quote:

Er, what do you mean here exactly? I fail to grasp it, I'm sorry.

I can "open" file not only from local drives but from remote servers, repositories and so on. Current file requests are network transparent.

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@DAX

Mac ain't iPad, mon. Mac is completely different from Windows. There are lots of things that won't translate into OS X paradigm. I was talking about touch-enabled devices. Show it to someone and he'll swiping pages, moving icons and running applications in minutes. Touching is natural. Moving "screens" on computer is not.

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@DAX

I've had a similar experience - people buying Macs and straight away looking for help. The file requester baffles them sometimes, I get "Why can't I right-click?" sort of questions and so on. It's true that people won't immediately get the idea of dragging screens, but I only had to show my little brother once and he was perfectly comfortable with the concept.

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@Mechanic

Uh, that does not add up. Me voting against programming with hardware access is somehow against curiosity? It's like saying that me being fond of neurology implies I'm pro home made lobotomy.

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@Daedalus

Quote:

@opi Well, the drive letters thing is still how most people see the world - so much so that on my mobile phone the built-in flash memory is labelled C: and the memory card D:, yet it's Symbian based. Mounting the drives without drive letters is possible, in which case it looks more like a unix system, but how many average users do that?

How many people should want to mount more drives than letters in the alphabet could allow? We are talking about 23 volumes! (assuming that A: and B: can't be used for anything else than a floppy disk drive)

@paolone

Not the point I was making (though I'm sure some people have had issues - here in work I only have around 12 letters used). Broadly, the point was that drive letters aren't exactly intuitive, the Amiga does it better with its volume names. Yet, most of the world just uses drive letters without question and just gets on with it. I was just pointing out that drive letters have even appeared in other operating systems which appears to have done that just to be similar to what most people are used to.

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@opi
ok you were talking about tablets, and I agree they are a good example of something intuitive, but to stay on topic, MacSociety asked about other desktop OSs (he even specified which ones).
In this case what Deadalus reported on post 36 is quite my experience also.

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