@bhabbott

Quote:

Don't try to turn the Amiga into something it wasn't designed to be.

It was a computer platform that was supposed to evolve over time. Spinning hard drives were supposed to give way to SSDs and the 060 should have been replaced with something on par with the 080 core or PiStorm just in the late 90s. Most people seem nostalgic for slow single floppy OCS machines. Good luck to them but we surpassed all of that while the Amiga was still alive in the mid-90s! Even the Mini and A600GS shoot higher than that with their emulation!

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@cdimauro

Amiga has its own library hell, even more so now with 3.2. Old 3.0/3.1 libraries (on application boot floppies for example) are often incompatible with components in the 3.2 kickstart. 3.2 comes with a “modules� boot floppy, but by default it doesn’t load a whole bunch of the modules resident (which I do find peculiar, considering what it’s function is) so unless you manually add “pure� bit on all pieces (al libs:#?.library and everything in L:) you end up with a semi-updated and very crash prone 3.2/3.0 mix of libs…

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

The Amiga and what it is and was will die with us guys.
My child dont know what an amiga is, dont have interests on it... their only interest is on Fortnite and Roblox some time in Minecraft.
If i run turrican on Nintendo switch my son ask to pull off the cartrige for play super mario...
Amiga will exit totally from scene in the next 40 years (i hope to everyone to live since 100 years old). be sad but it is true.
Amen

Last edited by tlosm on 16-Jul-2024 at 11:28 AM.
Last edited by tlosm on 16-Jul-2024 at 11:28 AM.
Last edited by tlosm on 16-Jul-2024 at 11:27 AM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
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@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: @Hammer A post ONLY with personal attacks: what a news with you, Amiga forums bot. Ah, in Italy when someone reuses the same statement which was already used by someone else to make jokes against a person, we call it: "specchio riflesso" (roughly translated as "mirror reflection"). And we add that (again, roughly translated): "The reflection mirror was in use in (primary) schools". TLDR: grow! BTW, I was the one calling you "bot" before. Eh!

What's the matter? can't handle the return serve? I'm not Italian, hence your Italian whatever has no meaning to me. The world doesn't revolve around the small country of Italy. The imperialist Roman Empire is long dead.

My rules of engagement are the "Pearl Harbor" trigger. I don't start flame wars, but I will return the serve, for insult for insult.

Last edited by Hammer on 16-Jul-2024 at 01:19 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Jul-2024 at 01:15 PM.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
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@tlosm

Quote:

The Amiga and what it is and was will die with us guys. My child dont know what an amiga is, dont have interests on it

Then you done a poor job! my niece who i only see once a year due to them living abroad, still knows what an Amiga is! She loves the Boing Ball and loves playing lemmings.

There were a few young people at the Amiga show. (most dragged by their dads likely)

I mean your most probably slightly right, if we dont bring in new younger people, the core Amiga community will die off.

All I know is Amiga has defied the odds already, I mean where 30 years on from Commodore bankruptcy and its amazing that where still hear seeing new Amiga products, shows, magazine etc.

_________________
AmigaNG, YouTube, LeaveReality Studio

In my personal opinion, Amiga has become more than a 68K processor mated with custom chips. For me, Amiga is more about having fun, writing, art, music, videos.


redfox

@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote: @cdimauro The Amiga was supposed to a state of the art affordable gaming console that could also double as a home computer.

Well, a VERY expensive gaming console, considered the price of the first model...
Quote:

AmigaOS was the attempt to bring a proper OS onto a home computer. Blitter, Copper, bitplanes and 68000 were means to that end. Exec Intuition and so on was the best they could implement on the still limited HW. The A500 was the only Amiga that came close to that vision as everything else was to expensive, to weak ( for it’s release date) or to much beta (A1000).

Yes, but I doubt that the 1000 was primarily conceived as a gaming console: too much expensive.
Quote:

What would come closest to that vision in 2024? Maybe the SteamDeck, but surely nothing Amiga branded or related sold in the past 30+ years.

The SteamDeck is like a PS4/XboxOne repackaged on a different format, with a different software. Nothing (really) custom. Nothing new.

Nowadays I fail to see something which could resemble an Amiga.

@bhabbott

Quote:

bhabbott wrote: @cdimauro Quote: cdimauro wrote: I also use emulation from very long time. However, it's very different from the experience which I had at that time, with the floppies (zzzZZZzzzZZZzzzZZ), the joystick, the CRT and, even more important, tinkering with my Amigas trying to see how they worked and how to squeeze the most from them. That's a completely different thing which no post-Amiga machines will give again, IMO. That's how I feel too. Emulation has its place, but what really interests me is the actual hardware - the kind of hardware that was in home computers in the 80's, not the stuff we see today. In the 1970's electronics was a popular hobby. Enthusiasts could buy standard parts to build their own radios, audio systems and other electronic gadgets. But computers were out of reach until the microprocessor was developed. By the late 70's some of us were building crude computers using the relatively simple devices of the time. I started with a kit based on the RCA 1802 (similar to the COSMAC VIP), and soon afterwards designed my own computer using a 6800 CPU and 6847 VDG with a proper keyboard etc. From there I moved to commercial home computers, starting with a ZX81 and then ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC664 and finally an Amiga 1000. I didn't just use these computers, I got to know how they worked and developed hardware hacks and addons for them, and created tools to help with further development (assemblers, EPROM programmers etc.). This was a large part of the hobby for me, taking up way more time than playing games. Just because modern computers are appliances now and far too complex to create from standard chips - let alone be worth the effort - doesn't mean I should give up the hobby I have enjoyed for over 40 years. With today's technology it's easier for hobbyists to make high quality hardware (and software) for 1980's era home computers. I have lots of ideas for things to add to the various home computers I own. But I keep them simple in the style of what was being done 'back in the day'. When you stray outside the domain of period hardware you are loosing the hobbyist elements. Program a GAL to replace some random logic? Sure, they did that in the A1000. Put all the logic inside a CPLD? Now you're getting into custom chip territory. Create an entire computer inside an FPGA? Now you have something else again. Now it consists of complex HDL code that takes an expert to understand, while the hardware is generic and uninteresting. I don't want to just be a consumer, constantly being goaded into buying the latest product so producers can make a profit. The push to define the Amiga as whatever the latest tech can do for it is just turning it into another consumer product, exploiting our desire for higher performance and greater functionality while making the hardware less accessible. But we have modern computers for that. Don't try to turn the Amiga into something it wasn't designed to be. Instead savor and enhance its essence to achieve what it promised to be 'back in the day'.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough before. It's not that I don't like emulation and I prefer the hardware.

I've only stated that my experience with my Amigas were very different from the current one with non-Amiga devices (based on emulators).

I also appreciate emulators (A LOT), but the experience is simply (very) different from what I had in the past. That's it.

BTW, I would like to get something different from emulators: an enhanced experience. I mean: I've already played many Amiga games and used a lot of applications. I don't need to repeat the same on an emulator, exactly as it was. I can do it, and I do it from time to time, but I prefer to have something more.

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @cdimauro Amiga has its own library hell, even more so now with 3.2. Old 3.0/3.1 libraries (on application boot floppies for example) are often incompatible with components in the 3.2 kickstart. 3.2 comes with a “modules� boot floppy, but by default it doesn’t load a whole bunch of the modules resident (which I do find peculiar, considering what it’s function is) so unless you manually add “pure� bit on all pieces (al libs:#?.library and everything in L:) you end up with a semi-updated and very crash prone 3.2/3.0 mix of libs…

Those might be simply (!) bugs... that need to be fixed.

Amiga libraries have nothing to with that, because they define a precise interface and how exposed APIs are structured.

So, in principle they are WAY better than Window's DLLs and Unixes' shared objects/libraries.

Of course, they can also have bugs which require to mix different libraries versions in order to make applications work. But those are bugs, in fact, and mixing different versions of the same library is just a workaround for it.

I suggest you to give a deeper look on the Amiga ROM Kernel manuals for that specific topic. And then compare it to the above DLLs and SOs: the difference is self-evident.

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: cdimauro wrote: @Hammer A post ONLY with personal attacks: what a news with you, Amiga forums bot. Ah, in Italy when someone reuses the same statement which was already used by someone else to make jokes against a person, we call it: "specchio riflesso" (roughly translated as "mirror reflection"). And we add that (again, roughly translated): "The reflection mirror was in use in (primary) schools". TLDR: grow! BTW, I was the one calling you "bot" before. Eh! What's the matter? can't handle the return serve?

I was simply stating, in the Italian's way, that your "return serve" is just childish.

Clear now?
Quote:

I'm not Italian, hence your Italian whatever has no meaning to me.

That's a general problem that you have. So, not limited to Italian...
Quote:

The world doesn't revolve around the small country of Italy.

Never stated this, right? However, please let me know: on which position of the G7 is Italy and on which Australia?
Quote:

The imperialist Roman Empire is long dead.

Please, tell me more about the United Kingdom...
Quote:

My rules of engagement are the "Pearl Harbor" trigger.

And... who cares?
Quote:

I don't start flame wars, but I will return the serve, for insult for insult.

And... who cares #2?

@thread

Don't worry.

It's all insults and handbags at dawn now, but I hear their make-up sex is something else ...

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@cdimauro


" volumes / assigns and datatypes IMO are the best things which Amiga have given us"

I do really like the datatype idea too. I believe that Haiku (BeOS offspring) implemented this as Rhapsody. It's major improvement was to separate things that might not always be used such as loading and saving so that only the needed code was brought into memory for the application accessing the type. I feel that datatypes are a fantastic idea (better than MIME and TLA's) but there are further things that could be done to make datatypes even more devine.

The volumes and assigns were very handy for doing so many things and making things easier.


"Amiga libraries have nothing to with that, because they define a precise interface and how exposed APIs are structured.
So, in principle they are WAY better than Window's DLLs and Unixes' shared objects/libraries."

I would love to understand the differences. Is there a really good comparison of their differences (application, purpose, effect) anywhere on the internet to read and study, cdimauro?

(Someone must have provided a link to the following as I have it in an open tab...)
https://kgsvr.net/andrew/amiga/amiga.diffnt.html#libs
"From: James Ceraldi (duplicated from elsewhere): Shared libraries for instance, while not unique to the Amiga, are a much better design than other methods saving memory and performance in many ways, especially in a multi-tasking environment"

Last edited by gonegahgah on 17-Jul-2024 at 04:33 AM.

@gonegahgah

Quote:

gonegahgah wrote: @cdimauro " volumes / assigns and datatypes IMO are the best things which Amiga have given us" I do really like the datatype idea too. I believe that Haiku (BeOS offspring) implemented this as Rhapsody. It's major improvement was to separate things that might not always be used such as loading and saving so that only the needed code was brought into memory for the application accessing the type.

Indeed. However I don't know what BeOS implemented.
Quote:

I feel that datatypes are a fantastic idea (better than MIME and TLA's) but there are further things that could be done to make datatypes even more devine.

MIME and TLAs (Three-Letter Acronym?) serve different purposes, and it's good to have them used on those places.

The main problem with querying a file to check the real data which is inside is that... it requires to access the file and check its content, of course. Which is problematic when you've a resource located on internet, for example, because it wastes as lot of time/resources. Same on computers that want, for example, to display a proper icon for a file depending on its content: it takes too long and the user will have a bad experience.

The easy solution for that its using the TLAs, albeit this doesn't guarantee that the content is the expected one. However, it's a reasonable compromise which usually works good.

A better solution would have been to use a proper filesystem metadata attached to each file, which carries the MIME (for example) information. However, not all filesystems support metadata besides the usual ones, so it's not a general-purpose solution.
Quote:

"Amiga libraries have nothing to with that, because they define a precise interface and how exposed APIs are structured. So, in principle they are WAY better than Window's DLLs and Unixes' shared objects/libraries." I would love to understand the differences. Is there a really good comparison of their differences (application, purpose, effect) anywhere on the internet to read and study, cdimauro?

I prefer to wait a bit and give kolla a chance answer on that.
Quote:

(Someone must have provided a link to the following as I have it in an open tab...) https://kgsvr.net/andrew/amiga/amiga.diffnt.html#libs "From: James Ceraldi (duplicated from elsewhere): Shared libraries for instance, while not unique to the Amiga, are a much better design than other methods saving memory and performance in many ways, especially in a multi-tasking environment"

Unfortunately it doesn't explain why they are a much better design.

Anyway, it's a quite technical stuff. Something which is more on (skilled) developers side.

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: Well, a VERY expensive gaming console, considered the price of the first model...

The A1000 failed his mission and flopped so hard C= paused production. If it hadn't been for the cost reduced versions (A500 and A2000B) that would have been the end of Amiga.


Quote:

The SteamDeck is like a PS4/XboxOne repackaged on a different format, with a different software. Nothing (really) custom. Nothing new. Nowadays I fail to see something which could resemble an Amiga.

Valve had a very similar "idea" for the SteamDeck and off course they weren't so stupid to do their own HW when AMD could make them the perfect SKU.
Writing an OS from scratch vs just putting a game starter on a Linux system is also a no brainer.

Thats what you get when you search a solution for a problem instead of the other way round and the only reason why HiTorro did it in house was because such of the shelf option just weren't available 40 years ago.

_________________
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- blame Canada

@tlosm

Quote:

My child dont know what an amiga is, dont have interests on it... their only interest is on Fortnite and Roblox some time in Minecraft.

The Amiga doesn't even have something that comes near to these network games.

My daughter uses to play Roblox, Genshin Impact and Valorant that are games with excellent graphic and they are free, we didn't even had 2D Network RPGs or Muds on the Amiga. (OK there where some games with network support but they where not really good)

@cdimauro

Quote:

I prefer to wait a bit and give kolla a chance answer on that.

Answer what? All I wrote is that Amiga has its own library hell, I didn’t say it’s the same type of hell as Windows or unix like systems. Bugs? Of course there are bugs, but there are also incompatibilities as a result of changes. Some of these incompatibilities have been worked around in the latest updates (like LoadWB now sporting a “LEGACY� flag to allow loading of older versions of workbench.library) but some are not (like trying to open a shell window when shell is still old v37 from Os 3.0 whil sys:system/CLI is v47… big bada boom). Some software, even from OS devs themselves, misbehave on Os 3.2 (for example device-handler from ThoR)…

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@OneTimer1

There was XPilot and Dynamite, at least.

(Though I much preferred to play XPilot on Sun Sparc stations)

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@cdimauro

Quote:

A better solution would have been to use a proper filesystem metadata attached to each file, which carries the MIME (for example) information. However, not all filesystems support metadata besides the usual ones, so it's not a general-purpose solution.

Amiga OS already provides a solution for this, the .info files are exactly for this kind of metadata - now, use them!

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@gonegahgah

Quote:

I would love to understand the differences

I’m no programmer, but here’s my take…
The major difference is in the nature of the operating systems - AmigaOS is a flat memory system, while windows and unix offer virtual memory space. On windows and unix, each process gets its own (protected) memory space, in which it can load the resources and libraries it needs. An easy way to look at AmigaOS is to say that it’s a single process system, and the name of that process is exec.library, and everything takes place in the memory space of exec.library. Hence on Amiga OS one cannot load multiple versions of the same library, like one can on unix and windows - all libraries are shared in memory as well as on disk. Hence Amiga libraries must also be able to be re-entrant, “pure�, being able to serve several masters (tasks) at once. In contrast, windows and unix libs may get away with serving only the one process that pulled them in (and serving many tasks/threads can be more optional).

That said - there are of course examples of .library files on AmigaOS that don’t “behave� the Amiga way, typically software title specific libraries that are only used by a certain piece of software. As a consequence, these software titles tend to crash when you try to load a second instance of them. I don’t quite recall, but PPaint is/was perhaps an example of this.

Last edited by kolla on 17-Jul-2024 at 11:45 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 17-Jul-2024 at 11:36 PM.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @cdimauro Quote: I prefer to wait a bit and give kolla a chance answer on that. Answer what? All I wrote is that Amiga has its own library hell, I didn’t say it’s the same type of hell as Windows or unix like systems. Bugs? Of course there are bugs, but there are also incompatibilities as a result of changes. Some of these incompatibilities have been worked around in the latest updates (like LoadWB now sporting a “LEGACY� flag to allow loading of older versions of workbench.library) but some are not (like trying to open a shell window when shell is still old v37 from Os 3.0 whil sys:system/CLI is v47… big bada boom). Some software, even from OS devs themselves, misbehave on Os 3.2 (for example device-handler from ThoR)…

Those are bugs and you cannot put them to the same level of a project design. Here we were talking about the latters.

The good thing of Amiga libraries is that their interfaces are set in the stone (I mean: in terms of expected parameters. You can add more APIs, of course, and extend the parameters of the existing ones if there's space), included the ABI, and even when compilers change.
They don't change and must not change (otherwise it's a bug or bad design decision of the developer).

That's exactly the reason why you don't need multiple copies of them running at the same time.
Quote:

kolla wrote: @gonegahgah Quote: I would love to understand the differences I’m no programmer, but here’s my take… The major difference is in the nature of the operating systems - AmigaOS is a flat memory system, while windows and unix offer virtual memory space. On windows and unix, each process gets its own (protected) memory space, in which it can load the resources and libraries it needs. An easy way to look at AmigaOS is to say that it’s a single process system, and the name of that process is exec.library, and everything takes place in the memory space of exec.library. Hence on Amiga OS one cannot load multiple versions of the same library, like one can on unix and windows - all libraries are shared in memory as well as on disk.

In theory it would be possibile, but the Amiga philosophy is to have just one (version of the) library for all applications.
Quote:

Hence Amiga libraries must also be able to be re-entrant, “pure�, being able to serve several masters (tasks) at once. In contrast, windows and unix libs may get away with serving only the one process that pulled them in (and serving many tasks/threads can be more optional).

Well, that happens for the math libraries and that's the reason why they shouldn't be shared by different tasks (e.g.: each task has to open them on its own).
Quote:

That said - there are of course examples of .library files on AmigaOS that don’t “behave� the Amiga way, typically software title specific libraries that are only used by a certain piece of software. As a consequence, these software titles tend to crash when you try to load a second instance of them. I don’t quite recall, but PPaint is/was perhaps an example of this.

That would be bad.
Quote:

kolla wrote: @cdimauro Quote: A better solution would have been to use a proper filesystem metadata attached to each file, which carries the MIME (for example) information. However, not all filesystems support metadata besides the usual ones, so it's not a general-purpose solution. Amiga OS already provides a solution for this, the .info files are exactly for this kind of metadata - now, use them!

That's not a filesystem's metadata.

You can call it Workbench's metadata, since it's an additional file which is used by the Workbench to store the icon (and other information).

That's another bad design decision of the Amiga developers, because this should have been stored on the OFS (and then provide APIs to query/extract/insert/modify such metadata).